I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but twas ever thus, so here goes:
Interested in making a tomme. While I'm interested in doing washed rind cheeses down the road, I'd like to gain some mastery of techniques by limiting variables, first, so I'd like to go with a natural rind development.
That said, I am interested in encouraging a natural mold development, but do not know how one goes about encouraging beneficial flora, and discouraging harmful molds.
Secondly, from brewing days, I am always interested in ambient flora, and their effect on "terroir" anything - whether wine, or lambics, for instance. To that end, for some years I had a dedicated microbiology lab of sorts, at home, and engaged in "industrial subterfuge," capturing yeasts from any of dozens of much loved ales, drying them, single-colony isolating them, and banked them (somewhere, in my moves, are hundreds of sterile plates, wire loops, etc.). Any thoughts, specifically, on species involved in a classic tomme de savoie, at least broadly speaking?
I freely admit my tyro status, so apologies if this has been covered, or if what I'm saying makes little sense (e.g., seeking "savoie" indigenous flora, for use in a "natural rind" tomme made in WI; or indeed, using anything other than ambient flora on a supposed natural rind).
Are you sure we're not related, Paul? Brewer, trained French chef, mad scientist lab, ever decreasing kitchen and house space due to "hobbies"... understanding wife... You even have the anglicized version of my name... :o
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That said, I am interested in encouraging a natural mold development, but do not know how one goes about encouraging beneficial flora, and discouraging harmful molds.
You do this by seeding the environment you want with the flora you want, fighting against blooms and outbreaks of undesireables, and giving the flora favorable conditions.
The thing is, the favorable conditions are ~90% humidity, and 50-55F for most of the flora you want, and also for the flora you do not want. If those environmental variables stay the same, they all will compete for the same food, space, and other resources. So if that competition exists, and you keep seeding with good molds, and removing bad ones, eventually the cave will be at a sort of uneasy truce and equilibrium. Note, you need a sizeable space to do this, and you need good air movement and air exchange. You can't do this in a fridge, for example.
To draw a parallel to beer, in warm wort, you can get yeast, lactobacilli, acetobacter, and a whole bunch of other stuff to grow. You don't want those, most of the time, so you control it by sterilizing, boiling, CO2 gassing, etc.
Here's a quick rundown on the most common flora types and their preferred conditions:
- Geotrichums like 92-95% RH, high O2 levels, and 52F, and up to 5% salt, depends on variant
- Penicilliums, both roqueforti and candidum like very high O2, 95% RH, and 50-55F, salt tolerance usually at least 4%, can be as high as 10%. Likes dry rind to bloom.
- Debromyces and Kluyveromyces like standard yeast conditions, 55-60F, sugar, nitrogen source, etc.
- Misc Streptococcus like 2-3% salt, can be higher, pH >5.7
- B linens likes 98% RH, 52F, 3% salt min, 14-15% salt max, pH >5.8
When you are crafting a rind, it is about knowing the cascade of blooming/growth of the ecology, and the controls you have to encourage dominance of one species. Controls are temp, humidity, salt, oxygen. Very often on the forums you will read rind answers from me that start with "it depends". It's not straightforward, but there are proven ways to create specific types of rinds, which is generally what I ask about in order to answer.
QuoteAny thoughts, specifically, on species involved in a classic tomme de savoie, at least broadly speaking?
Yes, multiple native geotrichum strains, arthrobacter, b linens or other corynebacteria, possibly Rhodotorula. You can buy a piece of tomme de savoie and isolate the strains and culture them if you want exact replication. Similar to yeast.
If you want a cheaper/easier trial solution, take a tomme rind, puree in distilled water, and both add that to milk, and make a rind wash from the puree, and it should give you a similar outcome.
"...mad scientist lab..."
I'm glad you said that, Linux, because I've been thinking that for a LONG time! <Smile>
All the rest of this discussion is way over my head. You fellas just have at it!
Sorry for the belated reply, and thanks for the posts, both - I only realized this morning that reply notification is an election, and not something automatically done on creating a thread.
Linux - lol - though my blood is indeed French, nothing like my username. Not sure what inspired "ArnaudForestier" beyond the fact I have a French pal from Aikido days by the surname, and must have been wanting a mushroom sauce of some sort for lunch, and grabbed the masculinization of the word. That said, I have been speaking French since about age 6 or so, and cooking it not that long after (my mom - first generation American of French blood - bought this weird kid Pépin's La Technique, which I worked cover to cover, over and over, as a 12-13 year old; began doing formal, Belle Époque styled meals for family, then friends, then the public....and it went thus). Well, not without bumps. There was that time before about 20 or so, doing crêpes suzette; involves fire, me, hairline, host's carpeting, and a teen's screeching voice proclaiming "everything'sokeverything'sokeverything'sok...." Out of disaster, grows....)
Man, thank you so much, Linux. I intend on following your method and recipe (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1591.0.html), and was very keyed by your comments on cascading, on another's recipe (itself a variant on yours - sorry, have lost the thread).
Fascinating. I think I dream, at this point, as we aren't even sure whether we're here for the long haul, or hightailing to the E.U. for a period of time (wife has citizenship), so the notion of creating the bonafide cave will have to be backburnered. But you've started me on a fascinating inquiry, many thanks for the expertise, and the seed to learn more.
That said, the microbial thief in me is keyed:
QuoteYes, multiple native geotrichum strains, arthrobacter, b linens or other corynebacteria, possibly Rhodotorula. You can buy a piece of tomme de savoie and isolate the strains and culture them if you want exact replication. Similar to yeast.
If you want a cheaper/easier trial solution, take a tomme rind, puree in distilled water, and both add that to milk, and make a rind wash from the puree, and it should give you a similar outcome.
Going with the second suggestion (for now, until I recover my micro-lab from mothballs), any specific suggestions on amounts - i.e., presuming a slurry/puree of the rind, how much one would add to the ripening milk, and (briny?) wash solution.
Also edited to add: sorry for the length, but on the notion of competitiveness among flora, thought you might get a kick out of this. At Goose Island, where I worked, we were fanatical for cleanliness and QC regimens; every run had something like 19 assays across the production flow, with the flow entirely a closed system.
Won a trip to England years ago, went to a wonderful brewery out of Stoke-on-Trent, watched him pitch yeast by grabbing some in a bucket, walking with the open bucket at shin-level across an open floor (former auto-repair garage), out a courtyard, and into the open fermentor. Stirred with what looked like a pretty crusty paddle, and his bare hands to wipe the slurry excess at the end.
I asked him if he ever had issues with spoilage, unwanted beasties, and he claimed no. Based on what I drank then, and brought home, I believe him. Many wonderful ales. Proof that decades, sometimes centuries of native culture can truly become microbial pac-men. ;D
QuoteGoing with the second suggestion (for now, until I recover my micro-lab from mothballs), any specific suggestions on amounts - i.e., presuming a slurry/puree of the rind, how much one would add to the ripening milk,
Start with 1% by volume of the rind, which when pureed will likely be something like 3-5% because you need some water to mix it all it.
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and (briny?) wash solution.
Same. Start with 1-2% salinity in the wash because it's hard to know how sensitive the geotrichum and penicillium strains are.
That's an amazing story about old-school brewing, loved it.
LB
I want to make sure I'm understanding the math correctly..
So, if you are going to use 4 gal of milk for a tomme you would puree 5 oz of a tomme rind (4gal x 8lb/gal x 16oz/lb x 1% = 5 oz +/-) in distilled water before adding it to the ripening milk?
On a similar subject, I have been thinking about doing some goat milk blues but have been put off by the cost of p. roqueforti ($34 per pkg at DC). Could you take the same approach with using the mold from an existing blue? Same type of percentage - 1-2%?
Thanks
It's only a starting point to use 1%. If you can manage to shave off just the outer rind, you can use much less than 1%. I'm trying to give a safe recommendation for something that works. At 1% using something like 1/4" - 1/2" thick rind piece, you should have enough to get a good representative bloom.
Yep, absolutely, you can puree a chunk of blue. About the same amount, yes. Depends on how many blue veins you have because you're after the spores.
This is a blast, Linux, thanks. Will have to go out and get a tomme I especially like. And ranch the dozens of others, I'm sure.
This may be a lame question - but no issues with paste texture, using a pureed rind like this?
I would love to partake in the science of cheese and brewing but alas the only space my hobbies have not taken over completely yet is my bedroom and I have yet to figure out how to hang a hamock in there to make more room.
Quote from: DeejayDebi on December 18, 2010, 06:08:49 PM
I have yet to figure out how to hang a hamock in there to make more room.
Dutch press?
Quote from: DeejayDebi on December 18, 2010, 06:08:49 PM
I would love to partake in the science of cheese and brewing but alas the only space my hobbies have not taken over completely yet is my bedroom and I have yet to figure out how to hang a hamock in there to make more room.
Is it wrong that I read this as 'ham hock'? ^_^
SO, I have a tomme that I'm just getting ready to put in my "cave" I have the rind from a nice tomme de savoie. I will puree according to above directions. What procedures and conditions should I keep it in to promote the proper growth of a rind similar to the tomme de savoie?
What does the rind look like? There are several typical tommes made in the savoie, depends which one you use.
A medium brown thick rind.
I think I'm going to try the "pureed-rind mild brine wash" method with the goat tomme I made a week ago. It seems to have dried out nicely and has a pretty tight white surface now.
I have been stowing little chunks of rind from nice artisanal cheeses in my modified mini-fridge for a month or so now in the interests of encouraging a good environment. However, the ghee-covered cheddars I have in there have developed mostly green mold, with some small patches of dark grey or black as well.
I had a moment of surprise when I saw what I thought were pure white molds growing on the little goat wheels, but upon closer inspection it just seems to be lighter patches of purer white appearing in the cheese itself - possibly occuring in areas where a little water from the freezer tray above dripped on to the surface?
Quote from: Dgarner23 on January 10, 2011, 02:22:58 PM
What procedures and conditions should I keep it in to promote the proper growth of a rind similar to the tomme de savoie? A medium brown thick rind.
Got it. Here's what you do:
1) Inoculate the milk
2) Make 2% brine with rind slurry. 2% just in case the white mold is really sensitve to salt.
3) Dunk cheese in brine every day for 3-5 days. RH 95%. Temp 55F. After the third time, take a rag and wipe the whole thing down. Let it rest for 1-2 days. The surface should change, get a little funky/smelly, slight whisps of fuzz. Not slimey, exactly, but you should see a color change (orange/red), that's the transition point.
4) Dunk cheese every other day for 2-3 times and wipe down with rag after each time. RH 90%. Temp 55F
5) By this time, you should have a decent bloom of whatever is starting to grow on it. Let it grow out 2-3 days so you can see what's happening. There should be orange/brown/slight white spots.
6) Dunk a few more times, spaced 3-5 days apart, wipe with rag to keep the molds down. Then let it grow out. The geo should take over, make a mottled kind of rind with white and red and brown.
7) From here, cut the temp to 50-51F, and humidity to 85-87F and let it go. Brush down every few weeks at first, then every month or as needed for maintenance. The color will equalize and be more uniform.
Should give you a close approximation of that rind. The brown comes in a little later usually, in 2-3 weeks from the make, and the color intensifies. What you're doing is raising the temp and humidity at first, to get everything to grow, then letting the geo take over and bloom, and then cutting back the temp and humidity and letting the cheese age and rind flora to die off.
Well, I see the tomme rind topic seems to be 'blooming' across a number of threads. Thanks to all who have provided feedback, linuxboy in particular natch, for sketching out some of the deep complexity and still taking the time to boil the details down to meaningful options for the noob-ish (like moi).
Anyhoo, so I am ready to try the method of washing my little goat tommes with pureed rinds in mild brine. Here's the rather limited selection of what I have available atm:
Raw milk Cantalet: Whitish rind with an underlay of orange
Old piece of Taleggio: Stanky stanky, purely b. linens I would think?
Black Label Cambozola: I know this is a blue but the rind doesn't show it, but is rather a beatiful grey/white/brown blend. Safe to use without blue taking over?
Chaumes: I think the 'rind' is printed wax but the paste itself if a bit funky/stinky, might be useful?
I realize this will be kind of a shotgun approach if I blend the bunch, and I have seen posts here that suggest some things don't play nice together. As a beginner, I would consider a wide range of outcomes to be acceptable. I don't want it to be bland and characterless, or on the other end of things uber-stinky, but those are about my only boundaries. Oh, and my modified mini-fridge only gets up to 80-85% RH mostly. If all of the above doesn't seem desirable I could wait a day or two and acquire some better samples . . .
Would appreciate any thoughts on what to put into the mix!
Don't use p roqueforti. If you use candidum, use a moderate salt brine, 3-4%, retards the growth. Tallegio is b linens primarily. Classic for tomme is a yeast, and a b linens/geo blend, along with airborne molds. And/or mycodore/mycoderm along with b linens and geo.
Thanks, lb. I'll take that to mean that even the non-blue-appearing rind of the Cambozola is off limits.
Interesting that you mention yeast . .. I do have some dried yeast and viable slurry around from other hobby efforts that I could add. Any specific recommendations in that department? I think I have some white wine yeast, a neutral American ale yeast, Belgian Saison . . . .
No, use a better yeast more suited to cheese. debromyces, kluyveromyces, candida utils, etc.
(check the kluyveromyces tin) "Honey? Are we all out of kuyveromyces AGAIN?"
Dang. Not this time, I suppose.
Rind-wise, I ended up going with Tallegio, Chaumes, Cantalet, Port Salut and Tomme De Savoie. We'll see how it goes . . . .