Hi,
I've got some ice cubes of starter culture (each about 25 ml, or just shy of an ounze). A lot of recipies indicate starter culture in terms of teaspoons, which makes sense for the dried culture but not mother cultures. Having a brief look in Riki Carrol's book, it appears that generally 1/4 tsp corresponds to 4 ozs of mother culture, or roughly 4 ice cubes. However, this doesn't appear quite universal in her book (but I understand it is a bit inconsistent in places). Anyway, does 4 oz for 1/4 tsp sound about right to the more experienced?
Thanks.
- Jeff
Jeff, good question, most people (including me) tend to use 1 average sized ice cube per liter/quart of milk. While not highly accurate, everyones activity level is also different.
I Just updated the Wiki: Store Bought Buttermilk Mesophilic Starter Culture Making Recipe (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki/) article with this rule-of-thumb.
What batch size are you processing?
Thanks John. I'm not using buttermilk though (or maybe I am? see below!).
Keith, I usually do 10 litre batches. I have ice cubes of the meso (Flora Danica) and thermo (ST B01) that came with my cheese kit (put 1/4 tsp in a UHT box of skimmed milk, let it sit for 24-36 hours on the kitchen counter for the meso or in the hot water cupboard for the thermo), then transfer to clean ice cube trays, etc. So, is my meso and thermo cultures basically cultured buttermilk and yogurt?
Up until my latest cheese (a manchego) I've just used 1 ice cube and have obtained curds, which have pressed into good looking cheeses (apart from one wensleydale which didn't have a great knit). Anyway, I have noticed that the times to a "clean break" were quite a bit longer than indicated in the recipes. At the time, I thought that was due to using store bought milk, etc. But, on the manchego I put in 4 cubes of the meso and 2 thermo (as Ricki Carrol's book indicates 3 oz and 1 oz and my cubes are bit under 1 oz each).
Of course, since this is also my first cheese with both a meso and thermo culture used, I can't really compare how things went, but I did get the biggest yield yet out of my milk. Unfortunately, that may also be due to the change in the milk I used!
- Jeff
Jeff, I believe store bought Cultured Buittermilk is a broader range of microorganisms than Chr Hansen's Flora Danica, not sure what ST B101 is. That method should work but will give you verying results, search on "Propagating" and you will get some threads such as this one (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6166.msg44012.html#msg44012).
Adding either of those lactic acid producing starters will lower the pH which helpd rennet to coagulate the milk, the pH they drop is dependant on their activity level and time and temp between adding the starter an the rennet. In rennet coagulated cheese, most of the coagulating comes from the rennet. see our Wiki: Coagulation (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki/) article.
Lots of posts in the Making Curds Board on problems getting a good rennet set curd, also see the Wiki: Coagulation Defects (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki/) article for ideas.
Thanks again John. I'm not sure if I'm just expecting something more in terms of a clean break. The curd forms, and it cuts, and the final cheeses seem solid and firm enough. It just seems to me that it's about 90% there or so, but I keep thinking it needs a bit more firming up. I'm using a vegetable rennet which says 0.7 ml for 10 Litres of milk. Anyway, I'll know in a week how the cheese is, since I'm cutting into a caerphilly then. Fingers crossed.
- Jeff
Disclaimer: I AM A RANK BEGINNER!!!!
My understanding is that the general rule is to use 1.5-2% by volume of your mother culture. There are several tables posted on the forum by linuxboy and Sailor Con Queso for this, e.g. https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5165.msg38655.html#msg38655 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5165.msg38655.html#msg38655) (pdf at the end of the post on Mother Dosage). Example: 1 gallon = 128 oz, so anywhere from 1.92-2.56 oz of mother.
Also, linuxboy has posted a table that indicates the % culture used varies by cheese: https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5691.msg41618.html#msg41618 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5691.msg41618.html#msg41618)
Some people make cheese by culturing plain buttermilk or yogurt for their starter culture. It sounds like you cultured yours from powdered bacterial mixes. Both work, just different ways to do it.
For what it's worth... :)
I went back through my make notes because I recalled I did get a really good clean break, with nice clear "greenish" whey for one of my cheeses. It was the gouda, and it required 1 hour and 20 minutes after the addition of 1 ml of rennet to get this.
Since then, my post rennet wait times have been much shorter (40 min to an hour), and I've been using less rennet. The bottle says 0.7 ml for 10 Litres. So, it seems it's possible for me to get a nice clean break; it just takes more time, but I'm wondering what that will do to the final product since it's my understanding the acidification that occurs will be on quite a different path by then.
fun stuff.
- Jeff
You need to search the forum for flocculation method.
Hi Sailor,
I've read a bit on that, and gave it a try on my last cheese (a Manchego). I seemed to reach the flocculation point around 7 min 30 or 8 min, and with a 3x that would put the cutting time around 22-24 minutes. The curd seemed a bit mushy and soft, certainly not a clean break. It seems, though, that one might just ignore whether or not the break is clean and just go with the flocculation time? If the curd is still a bit soft, and the whey milky, at the flocculation determined cut point, doesn't that mean much of the butter fat, etc, is not being contained in the curd?
- Jeff
Your flocculation time is way too short. Use about 50% less rennet and shoot for 12-15 minutes. Yes, unless there is some sort of problem with the milk, you ignore clean break and cut at the time determined by the multiplier.
Thanks a lot Sailor. I appreciate your time and advice, from which I've learned a great deal. Getting there.
- Jeff
To jump into this thread I'm working on adjusting Culture amounts and Rennet amount. As I change from making cheese once or twice a week to every day, I have switched from frozen cubes of mother culture to fresh meso made daily. The Rennet I am using is Chy-max and at the recommendation of 1:3000. Milk, no change here, is fresh from the cow. Using 1% Culture frozen, I wasn't getting a decent pH drop to rennet for about an hour and Floc was about 15 min +/-1 min, 3X multiplier for our cheddar.
With the fresh culture, we get the same pH drop- 0.25, in <10 minutes. Floc however has dropped to <6 minutes. Clean break ok but seems really short.
Less culture?, less time from culture to rennet? Less Rennet?
Joe - Mother Cultures are definitely more efficient and as you can see, is already saving you about an hour per batch. That is really significant in a small commercial environment. If you are using 1% MC, I would not reduce the culture. Too little MC starter will mean that it takes longer to get to the right pH targets. So if you find that it is taking all day to produce your cheddar, use a little more MC - I use 1.5%. Your .25 pH drop is good, so after you add the MC go ahead and rennet immediately instead of waiting 10 minutes.
Rennet recommendations are "in the ballpark" but not accurate and your floc time is definitely telling you to use less rennet. There are lots of reasons including starter pH, cows diet, variations in pasteurization, lactation cycles, etc. But whatever the reason, reduce your rennet and get the flocculation back to ~15 minutes. Short floc times, (too much rennet) can result in bitter peptides. This is especially true with Chy-max or other non-animal rennets.
QuoteSo if you find that it is taking all day to produce your cheddar, use a little more MC - I use 1.5%
The cheddars I tend to like get to 5.4 (milling) about 4-5 hours into the make. Any faster (3 hours), and the quality suffers a bit. Any longer, and there's a risk of contamination, and it also uses up resources. A full day of cheddar production typically takes 8-10 hours, with prep, cleanup, etc. Shift goes home with cheese in the press, comes back the next day, and takes it out of the press. I would adjust the culture amounts to hit the pH targets at those times.
Quote~15 minutes
I agree, adjust it to the time target you like. 6 minutes is too short. I'd try for at least 10 minutes, preferably 12-15. Chymax M has very good k-casein affinity, so it gives you a firm curd quickly.
Sailor - thanks allot. I will be going for Rennet after 1 min of stirring using 1:4000 Chymax 33% reduction. I'll report back after tomorrow's cheese!
I am still doing 30 liter batches (1/10 of the vat, i'm using the vat as a double boiler for a pot) until I get this all straight.