I am having a terrible time with my hard cheese. I have been making soft cheese with my fresh goat milk for years and love it. I make a Cherve, Feta, yogurt, and Camembert all with great success.
I have a raw milk license so my milk is tested monthly. It taste great for 2-3 weeks so I know it is not the milk.
I have been trying all different types of hard cheese to find the one I like best. I love all of them when they are young but as they age the taste is too strong, tangy but not in a good way. It is not that i do not like strong cheese, I do. But these taste not so good alot.
Perhaps I am using the wrong cultures for got milk? perhaps I need to adjust temps and times?
I have been making a 4-8 gallon wheel every other day simply because I have the milk and would rather keep trying than feed it to the pigs.
I guess I figure if I finally get it right I will have more.
If any of you who make aged goat cheese would like to share your thoughts it would be much appreciated.
1) What breed(s)
2) What are your milk numbers
3) What is your feed/supplement/mineral schedule
4) What is your milking procedure, equipment, and storage
5) How old is the milk when you make the cheese?
6) What cheeses have you tried and with what cultures?
7) Have you made my tomme, both regular and washed curd?
and also, what is your affinage schedule?
Mostly Nubian and Alpine with a little Boer in all of them.
Not sure what you mean by numbers, Butterfat was 3.75 at last test. That was a few years ago.
They eat Blue Seal Dairy Goat Pellet, They have free choice minerals high in copper, and free choice hay. They also are out on pasture mostly grass all day.
I sanitize all equipment and let air dry. I wash udders ,dry and teat dip. I wash my hands and hand milk. I strain and cool. I do not cool if going right into the cheese vat.
I use milk that I just milked at most 1 hour old.
I have made, cheddar, Colby, MonterayJack, Havarti, all with similar results. I have an Edam that I have not yet opened. I am using Meso MM 100 or Ma11. I was using generic Meso from Hoeggers.
I have yet to make Tomme. It seems like an awful lot of time to invest into something that will taste bad. But i will try if you think it is a good one to make.
I follow what ever recipe I am using. Pressing, draining,I air dry in the kitchen, now in my cheese room. I have been vac sealing and I keep in wine cooler.
My biggest puzzle is the same piece of cheese when opened at 60 days or younger is great then I put it in a ziploc and back into the fridge. Two days later that same piece tastes bad.
I will figure this out. I see others selling raw aged goat cheese and they describe it as mild and pleasant which leads me to believe it has no goaty taste. If they can do it I can do it.
With your help.
Steff
My guess is that you are not aging long enough. The federal guidelines are a minimum of 60 days for raw milk, but most take 90 or more. A cheese that is tart and acidic now might be wonderful 30 or 60 days later.
I have a few still aging. I have promised myself to wait but In the past i have waited only till 60 days. i will wait 30 more on top of the 60.
Steff-try dividing up the wheel on the next one that you cut and wrap and continue to age the rest. Keep track of the total ageing time for each section that you have saved. Then you can try it at say 90 and 120 days and have some more data points to work from. I would tend to agree with Sailor- it might just be an aging issue if you are good with all other aspects of your make.
Quote from: steffb503 on March 23, 2011, 10:41:55 AM
Mostly Nubian and Alpine with a little Boer in all of them.
Are genetics mixed, meaning multiple lines, or do you have shared genetics? I'm trying to eliminate this as a cause. Some lines just have absolutely terrible milk for cheesemaking. It's somewhat rare, but if all your does share similar parentage, it could be a contributor.
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Not sure what you mean by numbers, Butterfat was 3.75 at last test. That was a few years ago.
When you get your milk tested, what is the SCC, BF, protein, lactose, etc. PM if you prefer. Now, what I'm trying to do is eliminate milk abnormalities as a possible cause. It could be that you have sub-clinical mastitis, or your feed program is making for unusual milk, like milk with too much nitrogen in it from feeding excess protein. Your pellet is a 20% protein. Easy to overfeed. I feed mine a whole grain mix that I balance to 14% protein, and use alfalfa + browse for calcium and roughage.
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They eat Blue Seal Dairy Goat Pellet,
OK, how much per head? Or are you free feeding? here, in the nutrition discussion, I am trying to determine if the caloric, element, protein, fat, fiber, calcium, phosphorus, etc needs are being met, or if they are out of balance. Please, give me some specifics if possible.
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They have free choice minerals high in copper, and free choice hay.
Which brand minerals? What kind of hay? What are the hay numbers if you had the hay tested?
QuoteThey also are out on pasture mostly grass all day.
What kind of grass?
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I sanitize all equipment and let air dry.
What sanitizer?
QuoteI wash udders ,dry and teat dip. I wash my hands and hand milk. I strain and cool.
How fast do you cool? To grade A standards?
QuoteI have made, cheddar, Colby, MonterayJack, Havarti, all with similar results.
Those are all basically the same cheese. They're in the same family type.
QuoteI have an Edam that I have not yet opened. I am using Meso MM 100 or Ma11. I was using generic Meso from Hoeggers.
I have yet to make Tomme. It seems like an awful lot of time to invest into something that will taste bad.
I don't follow. My tomme is one of the fastest makes out there. You go from vat to press in under 3 hours. And from morning milk to brine by the end of the day. I designed it as a backbone cheese that sells well for artisan creameries. If you need help, post in the thread, PM me, call me, etc. Tomme should be the first foundational cheese anyone makes when going from soft cheeses to hard. It's hard to mess up a tomme. Even when you think everything has gone wrong, it still winds up good. And you learn a great deal about cheesemaking with this style.
QuoteBut i will try if you think it is a good one to make.
I do. I can send you a culture packet of 4001 if you need it.
QuoteI follow what ever recipe I am using.
Which recipes do you use?
QuotePressing, draining,I air dry in the kitchen, now in my cheese room. I have been vac sealing and I keep in wine cooler.
How long from drying to vac sealing? And what temp in cooler? Do you have any whey seepage in the bag?
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My biggest puzzle is the same piece of cheese when opened at 60 days or younger is great then I put it in a ziploc and back into the fridge. Two days later that same piece tastes bad.
Goaty taste is due to fat lipolysis. Lipases from the culture and natural lipases in the milk break down fat. In your case, it could be that the exposure to oxygen is causing mold/yeast/bacteria to grow in the surface, causing excess fat breakdown. Another possibility is that the bag has 100% humidity, which causes rapid aging on the surface, leading to a strong goaty tang. And another possibility is your milk handling. If goat milk is agitated, it breaks up fat molecules, releasing lipases.
The other possibility is your affinage. When lipases break down fat, they at first release the immediate FFAs, which for goat milk is the shorter chain, C8-C12. Those are your really goaty tasting FFAs. With time, those FFAs break down into flavor forming compounds and will be less goaty. It may be that you are aging at the wrong temp, and eating too young. Do you sample the cheese with a trier as it ages so you can train yourself on the transformations, and tell what the cheese does as it goes through the various phases of aging? If not, it's very good practice. You vac seal, so instead of that, what you can do is cut a wheel, and age slices to different ages, and taste them every 2-4 weeks to see the changes.
Anyway, I can help more if you give some more details.
Well let me answer your questions. And thank you.
No my goats have different lineage. While some share parents others are totally unrelated.
My last test results from the state are,SCC- 105,000, I do not get results for protien, lactose etc. But all results are normal. No Mastitis or I would not be able to sell Raw.
My goats do not like alfalfa pellets. The hay I feed is running 18% protein and 10% moisture. The guy I get it from tests every cutting, every field. I can get the print outs but it is always good. I have a few print outs in front of me, lots of numbers not sure which you want. Can give you all if you wish.
Calcium:Phosphorus are better than 2:1
They get apprx 3lbs of grain a day.
Minerals are Sweetlix Meatmaker. Free choice
Just grass, no cedar, no oniongrass, no ferns.
I sanitize with Clorox bleach @ 200ppm
Yes I cool to 40F within 2 hrs if selling milk. I do not cool if I am going to make cheese right away. I then use it within an hour.
I guess the age time for Tomme put me off. I would not know if it was good or not for a while and if it was good then I would have to wait another long time for more . Or make a couple of them only to find out it was not good.
But It will be my next cheese, especially if you care to share your recipe.
I had been using Ricki Carroll recipes. I have switched to Margret Morris.
I have been waiting a bit longer to vac seal, until the rind was a bit drier than I would if waxing.
The temp in cooler is around 50F but depends on what the recipe calls for.
I have had very little seepage. When I do I open air dry for a few more days and re seal.
I would think if I agitated too much the soft Chevre would taste goaty also. I pasteurize that for sale and must agitate while heating. It tastes great. The milk for raw cheese does not get agitated except to stir curds. I am gentle.
I have a Colby that has a bit of whey in the bag. Should I vac seal them separately? dry them first then reseal?
Once again thanks for all your help
I will keep you posted.
Hmm, your feed and mineral schedules seem OK at a first glance. Protein seems a little high, but not necessarily if they're eating enough grass. Are you giving them supplemental copper at all? Either sulfate in solution in the water, or copper oxide rods? My milk has been more consistent with supplemental copper.
Tomme styles do not need to age long. It's ready to eat in 45 days with mild flavor, and has decent flavor in 60 days. Not sure how long you thought it needs. It's a cheese that usually doesn't age out well; it won't last you 12 months, for example, unless you target a lower moisture content. But it's great for sales because it has higher moisture than a cheese like cheddar, so you're selling more water (but still not as much water as chevre). I posted my recipe a while ago https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1591.0.html. (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1591.0.html.) Read the clarifications on my site, too (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49:basic-tomme-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66 (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49:basic-tomme-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66))
IMHO, you should not make American style cheeses with goat milk. It's possible to make them, and they might even taste good, but goat's milk is not cow's milk. It's better suited to more classic tomme and tomme/toma variants, like Garrotxa. And it's also better suited to lactic and semi-lactic styles, like the many French cheeses out there. If you are making American type cheese, like cheddar, you usually have to wash the curds a little to get rid of some goatiness. And you have to age a little lower temp (45-50F) to slow them down. A lot of people make tommes and tomme variants, and then give them finishes, like natural molds, or rub them with spices.
Your milk handling sounds right... gentle on the milk and curds.
Any time you have whey in the bag, you must take the wheel out and dry it. That water will cause off flavors.
Well these have been the hardest 2 months ever!!
I left the cheese alone.
I have opened an Edam and it was dlisious!!!
It was great at day one, 5, and 10.
So I guess the problem was the aging time. Today I will open a swiss and next I have a Havarti. If they taste as good as the Edam I am in the raw aged goat cheese business.
Good thing because I signed up for our local Farmers Market starting in June.
Thanks for all your help guys!!
Wish you could stop by for some cheese.
Was the conclusion to age it longer? I am also making raw goat's milk cheese and have experienced the same sort of goaty flavor. It's not bad, but not like cow's milk cheese. I have a friend who has expressed the same with hers. I have made Colby, Farm house cheddar, Manchago, Swiss and tonight standard cheddar. I've aged them 6 months before opening one up.
The last one I opened because my cooler got turned off and I didn't catch it for 2 days. We opened the swiss. My hubby says it's the best cheese he's ever tasted. It has a stronger flavor. The Manchego had a really good flavor and tiny hint of goat or something different. Not sure what. It had aged 5 months.
I've never made the Tomme. I'll have to try it.
I do believe it was the aging.
In my head the reason for aging 60+ days was for legal purposes and the cheese should taste good after 30. But that was only in my head.
Did you age it 60 days or longer? Have you let any of your cheese age longer than the 60 days? How did it taste?
It has been hard enough to wait the full 60 days but when I open them I have been cutting in half and resealing them for an additional 30 days if I can.
Th other problem is my customers really want to buy some. So I hate to keep putting them off.
Steff - don't be tempted to sell your cheeses too early. Your reputation is on the line. ;)
Had some friends over Sunday and I opened a few that I made prior to getting my actual license so I can not sell those . We tried a Havarti, Monteray Jack, Edam and Swiss The Swiss had some wicked cracks in it so I knew it would not age proper. It also was too large for my vac bags so I had to make my own bag. Needless to say it did not work well so I opened it a bit early. I actually opened it 2 weeks ago making it three weeks early and I put it in two vac bags and aged the additional 2 weeks.
It was fantastic. Tasted just like Swiss with a nice nutty aftertaste. I tasted it of course 2 weeks ago and again the other day. All good, better than good. Still good.
All the cheeses were delicious.
I am very pleased.
I haven't been around since last fall, when we dried up the herd and I no longer had milk. I learned a bit from this thread, but I still have a few questions of my own. :)
Right now I have a lot of milk on my hands, I need to make 5-6 gallons of cheese every few days, cheddar or Monteray Jack or Colby or I have been tempted to try Provalone or Swiss ... We were feeding baby goats & calves, the abundance of milk is a recent thing, I'm only 3 wheels into my sprint to stock my cheese cave. I have made two small wheels of cheddar last fall (very sharp, husband likes them though) and I've put 20-25# of traditional moz in the freezer this spring. Days I make cheese I've got something of a routine down!
Questions:
When I cut curds, and let them sit the time the recipe specifies, they almost always knit back together. Is this a goat milk thing? would you cut them again? Stir them instead of letting them set? I am at a loss. I like to experiment with recipes, but not knowing if it worked for 2mo is rather challenging.
Could I possibly dry wheels in my Excalibur on say, 95* to develop the rind faster? Is there a downside to that? The last wheel of Mon. Jack sat almost a week and was molding before it dried uniformly like I wanted it to. >:( I suspect I have mold/yeast floating around in my kitchen from breadmaking/fermenting. I was thinking the dehydrator in another room might help that?
Is it a huge deal to have some creases/folds/dimples in the rind? The Mon. Jack is doing this. I tried pressing with more weight (just a few pounds, it only calls for 10#), which helped a tad. I suspect this is because the curds are knitting back together, but am really at a loss, again. Should I dunk in 100* water and try to smooth stuff out? I just took this last wheel out of the press early this morning, it has dimpling in the rind, too. The recipes I'm using are Ricki Carol's, which all call for 2 gallons but I need to at least double the recipes for practical purposes.
I'm wondering, if the 2gallon recipe calls for 10# pressure, should I use 20# pressure on a 4-ish pound cheese???
I vac packed the last two cheeses, tiny bits of whey have developed (I have to look really close). Again, seems like I could dry them out with the air movement of the dehydrator, otherwise they would probably mold first?!? I honestly think I would prefer to wax them, only so I don't know what is going on underneath ... not wise, I know! LOL
I'm going to try knocking the cheese cave down a few more degrees. It stays consistently at 50-53* and 80-83% humidity in my basement.
Maybe part of my problem is making American Cheeses with goat's milk ... but it's the only cheeses I have any familiarity with at all. :-[ Well, I've had a few slices of Swiss in my life ... which I would like to try making but I'm nervous to add another mold to my house! ;D I would probably have to buy Havarti or Edam from the store to even see what I was aiming for!!! ::)
Any and all thoughts appreciated. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but waiting 60+ days to see if my "experiments" work or not is really challenging. I have about a month of making cheese every 2-3 days and then we'll dry up most of the goats, so I can't really tell which wheels work yet or not. *sigh*
I do love the whole process! I just wish I had more of the bugs worked out! 8)
QuoteWhen I cut curds, and let them sit the time the recipe specifies, they almost always knit back together. Is this a goat milk thing?
No, it's a good milk thing.
Quotewould you cut them again? Stir them instead of letting them set?
You mean the initial cut, and during healing the curds knit? Because I've never seen that happen. Or do you mean when you start stirring, if you fail to stir gently, the curds mat? If the latter, you need to keep stirring until the moisture is right, and then mat the curds.
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Could I possibly dry wheels in my Excalibur on say, 95* to develop the rind faster?
Yes, if you can figure out a way to pass through 100% hydrated air. Meaning practically, no. But what you can do is put a regular fan on it. but watch it carefully, it dries up FAST.
QuoteI was thinking the dehydrator in another room might help that?
Wipe with towel, put a fan on it. Also, there's a limit to that rind formation. If you want it even faster, use a fully saturated brine, it will have a firmer outer edge then after you remove from the brine.
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Is it a huge deal to have some creases/folds/dimples in the rind?
No, but indentations/cracks are a problem because if the cheese is contaminated, it will cause off-flavors inside. ut it's you have an even surface, then that's fine.
QuoteShould I dunk in 100* water and try to smooth stuff out?
Actually, if you do have cracks to the inside and want to smooth them out, that's one valid approach. If it's just surface imperfections and indentations, not an issue.
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I'm wondering, if the 2gallon recipe calls for 10# pressure, should I use 20# pressure on a 4-ish pound cheese???
Those pressures and weights in her book are completely arbitrary, scaled for use with a spring press or a home press with weights. Look up our PSI discussions for more details.
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I vac packed the last two cheeses, tiny bits of whey have developed (I have to look really close).
Don't vac pac for a few weeks, or until the cheese is completely dry and stable. Whey seepage in vac packing ruins cheese.
QuoteI honestly think I would prefer to wax them, only so I don't know what is going on underneath
No huge functional differences in the materials choice. Will still have whey seepage issues.
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Maybe part of my problem is making American Cheeses with goat's milk ... but it's the only cheeses I have any familiarity with at all.
Make my tomme. You must understand the principles of tomme styles if you want to make any hard cheese. Then make a washed curd tomme. Then you're ready for just about any cheese.
I've got these recipes that say: "Cut curd into _ size, then let rest _ minutes. Then heat to _ while stirring gently to prevent matting."
Problem is, letting them rest much at all results in them knitting back together, sometimes in REALLY big clumps! Each little curd is distinct, but trying to break them back apart is a doozy. So by the time I'm to the "stirring to prevent matting" they are already matted, which feels so wrong to me! ::)
A fan! Never would have thought of it! THANK YOU! :D
Good to know that her weights are very arbitrary. :-\ I am married to an engineer, honestly I think some of cheese making's complexities would be more up his alley ... but at least I have someone more than willing to lug weights and run all the calculations to figure out PSI. ;)
Tomme. Yes, sir. No idea what that is (don't laugh) but I will look for your recipe and make that next - maybe tomorrow. Your insights are very much appreciated!!!! :)
Quotesometimes in REALLY big clumps!
Oh I see. That resting period is called healing. It's when you form a skin on the curd to make it more durable so that when you stir, it doesn't fall apart. If you treat your curd gently, you can start stirring right away. In big vats, there's often no healing time. Also, just because you cut the curd, it doesn't mean you're done. As you stir, you will see there are some larger pieces. You need to break those up and cut them so all the curds are uniform.
It sounds like your milk is really good and your curds are strong. If so, handle the curd gently and you shouldn't need to heal more than 1-2 minutes.
Quoteweights are very arbitrary.
The book was written for ease of use for people at home. If you start going on all about PSI and surface area, it would lose people who just want to make cheese and not have to be engineers to do so. The truth is, as I've written here before, that it's the entire method of pressing and approach that determines weight. I can press without any weight, using just my hands, and have zero openings in many cheeses just by keeping the cheese warm. Meaning, there's no one right answer. If you're happy with 10 lbs and can accept the openings inside the cheese, use that. If not, use more weight.
Yes, I usually stir and find those other pieces, though I feel like I'm supposed to be "letting it rest". ::) I'm probably going to have to waft it around while it is supposed to be healing to avoid matting, then. I do have a pretty big, 7gal vat. I put it in a 13gal vat and use hot water to raise temps. I can usually raise the temps pretty quickly if I cycle the water in and out, but I can only lift 5gal by myself. I think husband might rig me a pulley in the ceiling though so I can do 6gal ... LOL
PSI doesn't frazzle me at all, married to a math genius that will crunch any numbers I throw at him for fun. It is the pH kit/meters that sound so complicated!
I found your tomme recipe. Sounds like I have to get over my dread of measuring pH. Not thrilled about that ... but gotta do it sometime! It would probably help overall and give me more consistent batches of cheese.
I don't mind tweaking recipes, but I usually master a basic recipe before I start tweaking. It seems like cheese making has so many variables, you have to make the recipe fit your conditions right away, and I guess that is part of the beauty of it, but still intimidating at the beginning of the learning process!
Thank you for your help. There seem to be a lot of threads on tomme that I'll be reading the next few days. :D
Quote from: GotGoats on May 25, 2011, 04:01:52 PM
Yes, I usually stir and find those other pieces, though I feel like I'm supposed to be "letting it rest".
No, if curd is solid, stir gently and you're fine. Healing will happen naturally.
QuoteI'm probably going to have to waft it around while it is supposed to be healing to avoid matting, then.
That's still healing, but healing with stirring, as opposed to only stirring.
QuoteI found your tomme recipe. Sounds like I have to get over my dread of measuring pH. Not thrilled about that ... but gotta do it sometime! It would probably help overall and give me more consistent batches of cheese.
Not at all :). Those markers are only for people who like to use pH and have meters. If you don't have a meter, follow the time guidelines. Tommes are ridiculously flexible and still come out tasting good. A tomme is the most basic of cheese types and is the ancestor of the majority of hard cheese types.
You'll do great! Just keep trying :)
Whoa. Just had to check in ...I didn't get a chance to make tomme yesterday as we had company and another project got in the way.
But I just finished up with 6 gallons; my 4-10# mold is FULL, it's just starting to press/mat together. I tried checking my rennet at 30minutes instead of 45, made a *world* of diff in how the curd cut. :D
So far, so good, I think, at least it's looking really decent. Brining is a new one for me, but can't wait to try. And washed curd. Frankly tomme seems to be less complex than the American cheeses I've been trying, though it seems to have a far different feel but I suspect that's because it's semi-soft? This is the kind of curd yield that I would *suspect* my goats are capable of, but haven't been able to achieve yet.
I might be hooked on tomme. Of course, it would be nice to taste it before the final say, of course. ;)
Thank you for the recommendation and the easily followed recipe!!! :)