I am making camambert for the first time. I was taking it out of the container and wrapping it in cheese paper when I noticed that the bottom of all 4 of them have a slight red tinge to it. I am assuming that it is a red mold. I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere for camambert, but I know that some cheeses do grow a red mold.
Has anyone else ever seen this?
My suspicion is linens, which isn't a flaw on a camembert (as long as it's in balance, an easy touch).
Is it red orange or red red? A picture would be helpful. Arnaud is probably right, but I believe arthrobacter is red red. I could be wrong.
Quote from: smilingcalico on April 04, 2011, 03:48:52 AM
Is it red orange or red red? A picture would be helpful. Arnaud is probably right, but I believe arthrobacter is red red. I could be wrong.
That's interesting, Smiling, as I wasn't aware of a red coloration among arthrobacter - what I've read is that they contribute yellow pigmentation - for instance, from Cheese, Chem, Physics and Micro:
QuoteThe occurrence of yellow-pigmented Arthrobacter strains, especially A. nicotianae, on surface-ripened cheeses has been reported (Marcellino and Benson, 1992; Vald`es-Stauber et al., 1997). Yellow coryneform isolates from several varieties of Austrian cheese were classified as A. globiformis (Eliskases-Lechner and Ginzinger, 1995a). This was confirmed by Bockelmann
et al. (1997a), who identified several yellow pigmented strains as A. globiformis.
(In fact, from an exchange with Pav, confounding this with a possible fuligo septica, "dog vomit mold" infestation, was an earlier nagging point for me, on one of my tommes).
Doesn't mean anything, as what I know is limited only to what I've read so far, which isn't very broad; just wasn't aware of arthrobacters having a red tendency. Do you have some material on this?
Arthrobacter are not red. They might get yellowish or cream color, or off-white, but that's about it. That's for both globiformis and nicotinae. No clue what your red tinge is, could be many things. B linens is a decent likelihood.
Morning Pav - once again, you astound me with your farmer's energy. Sun has a few hours to go, yet, before breaching the west coast horizon!
The cheese maker I once worked under had said that. He could easily have been wrong. Is it possible that with age or density they become red? We were working with hard cheese, not Camembert, so given your description and the age of this cheese, I would certainly have to say I was wrong.
QuoteIs it possible that with age or density they become red?
Not arthrobacter. Coloration tends to fade as molds die. You get lots of grays and greens and browns. Red color is usually critters like rhodotorula, serratia, brevibacteria, etc.
I found a pink mold/or bacteria on some of mine that I am still trying to identify. It is definitely bubblegum pink, not orange (as B linens). I don't see any hyphae so I assume it is a bacteria. Is anyone aware of something like a "field guide for yeasts and molds" or other resource that would help identify it? It doesn't seem to do anything positive flavor/odor wise, so I don't want it but additionally I want to know if it is harmful.
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No hyphae could be a slime mold, such as Lycogala or Fusarium. Have to check the cells to see, and/or ID through DNA.
There's Tom Volk's page http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/ (http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/)
and pics on Dr fungus page http://www.doctorfungus.org/aboutdrf/legal_pop.php?url=http%3A//www.doctorfungus.org/imageban/index.htm (http://www.doctorfungus.org/aboutdrf/legal_pop.php?url=http%3A//www.doctorfungus.org/imageban/index.htm)
But identifying multi-species mixes like on a cheese rind without at least a microscope is pretty tough. Easier to isolate and culture, then try to ID.
The color on the camembert went away. Maybe it was a color off of the reed mats or something. I had to ditch the camembert though, it smelled so bad that it stunk up the house. You could smell it when you walked in the back door. I will try again later.
Maybe you made taleggio!
These pinkish/reddish rinds are usually a sign of too much moisture. The cheese may have not been turned or it is basking in its own whey. Could also be cause by the cheese not sitting on a platform that is elevated enough from the bottom or that the mat on the platform is too dense and doesn't let enough whey out and air in. Contributing factor could be not having enough salt.
I doubt that this is B.Linen; Camembert is too acidic to produce B.Linen before it is covered with Geo and PC which de-acidify the surface. Red B.Linen takes lots of washing and some time to show up. It could however be a sign that the Camembert has not properly acidified
Yoav, I was so surprised by what I thought was linens development on my reblochons, that I didn't measure the pH; but I will say, it seemed that overnight, before I noticed anything else, by day 3, I very definitely had this pink-tangerine tinge to my wheels, and they never really changed. In other words, I'm wondering if geo can show up and recede so quickly, that it's easy to miss this, and linens can take off on a fully pH-prepped surface. Following this thread; very interesting.
Linens often show up as pinkish before turning orange, especially if Geo is present (a mix of the linens red/orange color with the creamy yellow geo). That's probably fine. Just keep washing it. Even if it is an undesirable mold the washing will grow the B.Linen and out-compete the bad mold so it will make the cheese better and safer.
It's also typical, expected and proper with Reblochons that the geo shows up first, then covered with B.Linens and disappears as B.Linen grows. Then, after you stop the washing and let the cheese age, linen will show up as again, this time as a sporadic dusty white over the red. Look up photos of Reblochons online and as you can see they are almost always dusty and white to some extent.
Quote from: iratherflyLinens often show up as pinkish before turning orange, especially if Geo is present (a mix of the linens red/orange color with the creamy yellow geo). That's probably fine. Just keep washing it. Even if it is an undesirable mold the washing will grow the B.Linen and out-compete the bad mold so it will make the cheese better and safer.
It's also typical, expected and proper with Reblochons that the geo shows up first, then covered with B.Linens and disappears as B.Linen grows. Then, after you stop the washing and let the cheese age, linen will show up as again, this time as a sporadic dusty white over the red. Look up photos of Reblochons online and as you can see they are almost always dusty and white to some extent.
What I am meaning to say is that by visuals alone, my linens showed up extremely quickly, with no obvious geo present, at least not in any dramatic way. (
see, for reference). Just an additional observation that based on:
QuoteCamembert is too acidic to produce B.Linen before it is covered with Geo and PC which de-acidify the surface. Red B.Linen takes lots of washing and some time to show up
I think, if my experience is any guide, that it might be possible to entirely miss the geo phase, prior to linens beginning its uniform pink-tangerine tinge? It happened so quickly - my visuals cued me to clear linens development by day 3 of daily washing, something I would never have expected; though I acknowledge the geo may have been there, missed it overnight, and by the time linens showed up in any real way, it was blending with the receding geo, as you mention above.
Geo is usually the first thing to show but it's not visually very striking. It just makes your rind look a bit more cream and less white but it is soft and not dry. The late stage geo (the one you get a few weeks later after all the rinds have been well established) looks like a dusty powdery sporadic dry white bloom.
OK, thanks, makes perfect sense, now that I think on it. As I recall, I'm pretty sure I simply confused it for a kind of brine remnant or something (from the dry-salting, and surface brine that resulted) as I do recall seeing this thinnish, more or less opaque coating, before the onset of the pink.
My babies are in the regular refrigerator, now. I think they'll be good eating cheeses, already really tasty, but lessons learned on drying off. Man (http://www.reblochon.fr/le-connaitre/sa-fabrication/9/index.html) -
QuotePréaffinage : Après sa fabrication, le Reblochon passe environ une semaine dans un séchoir...
Uh, yeah - guess "no time in the drying room" is just a bit shy of "around a week in the drying room." :o