Hello, everyone!
I was going to start out making chevre yesterday, I had made a batch of feta the other day, as I'm going out of town for a couple of weeks in the middle of April. I didn't want to make a longer-aging cheese that needed babysitting. I have a friend coming over while we're on vacation, to turn the cheeses I have & to let me know what the humidity, temps, etc are. She, very graciously, offered to do this, in exchange for dog-sitting for her.
Anyway, I thought, what the hey, I'll add in some PC & Geo 13 (only one I have) & see if turns into something.
I followed the fresh lactic cheese directions from NE Cheesemaking, but added the geo & PC, rennet, etc. I did add CaCl, though, as I'm using store-bought cow's milk.
Her instructions were to heat at 86F, but I heated mine only until 78, as I have notes here from one of the board recipes for semi-lactic. Anyway, it seemed like everything went well. I had to split the 2 gallons between two SS pots, as a friend borrowed my 20 gallon one to sterilize her canning jars.
Ok, for some weird reason, both "behaved" differently in the pots!!
These go with the photos:
1) pot #1, this is how it looked at 3am when I opened it to check (it was about 9 hours into it)
2) pot #2, same time
3) how the curds went..had to put them in muslin & cheesecloth bags, as they weren't whole curds,
4) after considerable whey had drained.
Ok, I really thought you could ladle them off WHOLE! Mine did for a bit, but they disintegrated into thick-yogurt consistency, or ricotta-like. The kitchen smells like a cross between sour cream & ladneh. So, now the bags are just draining, since they are too wet & mushy to ladle into my chevre molds.
What did I do wrong? Are they still salvageable? Will the "globs" firm up enough so I can place them in brine or will they disintegrate? Should I just pitch the whole thing & start over? I don't know why I always have a hard time with the lactic cheeses...even the chevres I've made in the past are like this, too. Is my kitchen too warm? I let the pots sit at room temp overnight..but I checked a couple of times & through the night, it had stayed between 80-83F in there, would this have made a difference? I scooped up a small amount & tasted it, it's a bit sour-creamy tasting, not salty, just mildly sour. Do I have any hope of turning this into something or should I just scoop them all up in jars & label them sour cream?
So I decided to make Chaource from 200 Easy...book, plus checking the posts here, too. After this initial failure, that really made me sad, bugged me, then made me determined to try again...
I was a bit worried & said as much to some of you here, too, that I would be going out of town & who would turn my cheeses? Fortunately, a friend said she would (and she did a great job, too), although it was a bit of a bear to talk her into turning the mold covered cheeses in the cave/fridge. She was just revolted at the thought, somehow & no argument of mine, even though they were logically & intellectually sound, could convince her..finally, she gave in, as long as she wore latex gloves. Anyway, I had her take photos everyday, after turning, to send to me (my babies were maturing so nicely!).
It was funny, too, when we got back from vacation (at almost 3am), my husband was the FIRST to check the cheeses, after he unloaded the bags! ;D
So, the next day, I couldn't wait..cheese & marmalade for breakfast. I have to say, I was pleasantly surprised, delighted (I actually cooed, after the first sinful bite!). This is going to be another household staple.
Creamy, with just a little ooey-gooey right-under-the-rind goodness! Actually got a bit gooey'er the longer it sat on the counter.
I used the chevre molds, after I ladled them in the butter muslin first, curds were too wet otherwise. Thank you so much, my cheese gurus, for your invaluable help!
Without further ado, the photos...
(EDIT: added a photo of day 4/5 after I had taken the cheeses from the chevre mold & they spent a few days in the cave, lid of the tupperware partly opened...I was really worried about the orange'ing of the skin at this point)
Cool! I may try that one... some day!
You know when looking at your picture I think I can taste the cheese, Its wonderful!
Will this be your particular bullet to bite, Darius? :P I have a feeling you have a list. Tomer, it really was good, if I may say so. I was really sweating the "slip skin", but, this time, I think it's beginner's luck. I'm off to the kitchen to make some cheese tonight...my request for mother's day is I get to do whatever at home, without anyone complaining of the smell..they automatically assumed this meant making cheese. ;D
One of my favorite cheeses to make and enjoy. Super creamy and nice. yours look fantastic. Congrats!
By the way, is the cheese in the photo standing on a knitting canvas???
Quote from: iratherfly on May 08, 2011, 08:08:31 AM
One of my favorite cheeses to make and enjoy. Super creamy and nice. yours look fantastic. Congrats!
By the way, is the cheese in the photo standing on a knitting canvas???
Indeedy! I mostly use mine as "bottoms" to reinforce the bags & purses I make. I actually had the cheeses on top of these AND on top of bamboo skewers that I cut to fit the aging box. I think, next time, I will omit the plastic canvas, though. Not too sure yet. It has helped drain the whey pretty good, though it was a bit of a pain to flip, wipe off, change skewers, etc. but definitely worth it after all is said & done!
I have to say, I like chaource more than crottin. I had to taste chaource again a couple of weeks ago for a before-mine comparison...I had forgotten how good it is! With the added almost-instant gratification, it's rewarding, too. ;D
I'm going to read the other chaource topics tomorrow to see if I can add to/make better my make notes.
Steff, I have a possible supplier for goat milk although he is quite a distance away. I hope by August or September to be able to get his milk and play around with several cheeses, including a charouce.
So many cheeses, so little time, LOL!
kookookachoo, on your first post/batch, there's some info here (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-cheese-milk-coagulation/) on Lactic Acid Coagulation which says it can take much longer than the 9 hours when the photos taken to get a good curd set and from the consistency it looks like the pH was not yet low enough.
Lactic Acid Coagulation is very temp sensitive, what was the temp in the morning of each pot? Your 2 gallons split between two pots look like considerably different milk level heights and thus considerably different shapes, maybe one had much more surface area than the other and thus cooled more and slowed down the amount of lactic acid created than the other batch.
Also, in my American Neufchatel making batches I've had a batch (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,722.0.html) come out with that consistency, worked out OK, just needed more draining time in bag.
John, all in all, it was a total of 16 hours. When I checked it, took the pic, I put the lid back on & waited until later in the day to start ladling it. Second time around I waited 20 hours (should have went to 24?)...room (my kitchen) hovered right around 74-76. The pots were 16qt & 10 qt sizes. I ended up with so much, though, so I might just go ahead & do a gallon & a quart of milk next time, too. Thankfully, a couple of friends were more than willing to take some of the round cheeses that were done, after they had ripened.
Second batch was at 16 days, maybe I should shoot for 3 weeks next time? I'm trying to figure out where I'm at, with the flavor preference. I used meso, PC, geo 13 & a pinch of PLA, too. I alternated between closing the lid all the way, to leaving it cracked open (wedged a skewer across) the last 5 days. My friend sent me photos & the humidity never did get up higher than 90%, though. It didn't seem to have any adverse effect that I was fearing...they were creeeeamy. :D
My next batch, I'm thinking of omitting PC, just using meso, geo & PLA....what do you think, guys? I also have mycodore, should I add that, too, or would it beat off the other guys? My hubby tells me I should stick with my make notes, since it turned out good...but, I wanted to see if another batch, made differently, would have a better flavor, etc.
Anyways, thanks for the input, much appreciated!
Quote from: kookookachoo on May 08, 2011, 03:36:05 PMMy next batch, I'm thinking of omitting PC, just using meso, geo & PLA....what do you think, guys? I also have mycodore, should I add that, too, or would it beat off the other guys?
I would actually omit the geo and not the PC. PLA already contains geo so if you put extra geo you would double up on it for no reason and you will get too much of it. I wouldn't omit the PC because it is needed to keep age this cheese and give it the flavor profile, texture and aroma is has. Besides, it gives it a rind that is dry to the touch. Geo alone would make it kind of gooey on the outside. As for Mycodore - great thinking flavor/aroma-wise but it's not going to happen because cylindrocarpon (Mycodore) is extremely acid and salt sensitive and this cheese would not provide growing environment for it; especially with all that other stuff going on. (believe me, I have tried several times and failed until I read the Mycodore spec sheet and was like "what on earth was I thinking?")
That being said, Chaource opens the door to many other cow semi lactics like Epoisses, Langres, St Marcellin Etc. There are even semi lactic bries out there. You can be creative and age it differently too.
For your next make, don't count it by hours. Milk at 69F can take 20+ hours ant in a room that is 73F can take 12 but there are many parameters related to this such as how fresh is it, how was it pasteurized, etc. Use the traditional method instead: Wait and look for: 1) Either the curd had began seperating from the sides of the pot/vat or there is a long crack (or cracks) going through the curd 2) There is a 1/2" layer of whey topping the curd (not more, not less, this is a tell-tell sign of the right acidity)
What Meso/PC/Geo are you using?
Got it on the geo, thanks!
I still have about 5 packets of the meso (generic) culture I had gotten for Christmas, it's from NE Cheesemaking, the PC also from them, too. The Geo 13 & PLA, are Choozit. Also, in my "kit" (I think my "Santa" just got me all the cultures he could think of in the list) includes M4002, LH100, corynebacteriae, MD89 (I always forget to look this up! I have FD, thermo (their "stock"-C2 & C201) from NE Cheesemaking, too. I know they're not what you asked about, but, I might as well get that all out..what I've got at home. I know, dangerous stuff to have in a "newbie"'s possession, right? ;D The MM4002, MD89, coryneacteriae (the packet says LR LYO 2D) are as yet unopened, since I don't really know what cheese to use them in, to be honest. I think my "Santa" was a little overzealous!
I'm interested in the St Marcellin, Yoav. Is it along the same lines..as far as creaminess, texture as Chaource? I'm kind of leaning toward that. I have to say, I had some Camembert in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago (I haven't had it since probably my college years) & it's "too" buttery for my liking.
You can probably get St. Marcellin at any respected cheese shop, including the cheese section of most Whole Foods. It's a gentle, delicate cheese with gooey insides. It is small and has very thin rind. It is easy to find - it is the tiny one sold in ceramic dishes! It is just too delicate to just sell and ship loose.
The MA4000 series (By series I mean also MA4001 and MA4002) are farmstead cultures. They are a mix of mesophilic and thermophilic strains and are the perfect starter for a Tomme.
The MD series (MD89, MD11 etc) are a diacetyl. It is responsible for giving cheese some of the buttery aspect of flavor and texture, as well as build up gas that gives you small eyes in the cheese paste. It's a mesophilic but you can't use it alone because it isn't strong enough. Add it to other bacteria starter where you want more of this character in the cheese. Just don't over-do it. Remember that some starters like Fl-Dn, MA4000 series and MM100 series already contain some diacetyl so you would be doubling up on this aspect if you add MD89. Still, I like to add it when I do tangy cheese like lactic goats sometimes. I would never add it to Fl-Dn because it would be way overly buttery and not nice anymore.
LH100 is a simple farmstead culture too.
LR is B.Linen strain that is not too stinky and not too red. It is aromatic and probably best used to wash Tommes and alpine style cheeses because it takes a while to show up (so I wouldn't use it for a 3-week cheese)
I am not sure what their C201 cultures and such are - I don't know why they had to give it their own name instead of sticking to the conventions. I think these are thermo B and thermo C versions.
Generally speaking, if you do not intend on using cultures don't buy them yet. They do expire so no point in this. Also, as you learn to make more cheese you will find out which cultures work best for you.
You must have been a very good girl for Santa to go out of his way like that!
I've learned that Santa usually has an agenda when it comes to this. ::) And it's usually something that would benefit him. lol Like "my" wine & beer making kits a couple of years back. Not that I mind, of course, I enjoy them, too.
So, basically, I can only use the MM4002 for cheeses that specifically ask for both meso & thermo? I have a bunch of cultures in the freezer right now, I made from the starter one I got from NE, too..their "C1" (lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis, lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris), I made a few days ago. Apparently it's a "generic" type. Their C201 is: streptococcus thermophilus, lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus, lactobacillus helveticus, according to the site. I'm starting a notebook about what specific cheese makes need which specific bateria, etc. I've just been reading as I go along..like if I'm making Caerphilly, I've been reading about it. I'm going to make another batch of Chaource tomorrow, so I'm getting my ducks in a row tonight, so to speak.
What is your go-to recipe for Chaource? Do you vary them every time you make, or use the same recipe each time?
By the way, thanks so much for all this info, I honestly get better info here than the "used to make Edam, Gouda, Cheddar, Monterey...." etc. It clicks more here, somehow, especially how you guys explain it!
No, no... You can use the MA4002 for almost anything. It's great with Tommes, also with washed rind styles. I am just saying that for lactic and bloomy types I prefer MM100 and don't really need the thermophilic.
The C1 description sounds like Danisco Choozit MA11 thru MA19 series. It's like MM100 minus the diacetylactis, so basically if you combine the "C1" and your MD89 you get MM100. (close enough)
The "C201" - not sure what is it (TA82???), sounds like a strictly thermophilic, probably used for yogurts or traditional mozzarella and other pasta pilata. I am not sure. I am sure Sailor, Linuxboy or Francois know (I mainly do bloomy, tomme and washed rind, not so much cooked curd warm/thermophilic type of cheese).
I make Chaource just like I make Crottin, only cow's milk! The only difference is the aging process. I try to give it hay or straw and maybe add some yeast or light B.Linen strain to get richer flavor out of it. Cultures like PLA are perfect for it, they have the yeast, geo and light arimatic B.Linen in them already so that's all you need. Just replace your geo with it. Keep the PC and starter culture as usual.
Thank you! I'm making Chaource again tonight. There's a lot of empty space in my cheese cave that's begging to be filled. :D I'm going to use your recipe & suggestions, too. I have a feeling it's something I will like more. I've been so busy at work & orders (my little home business) for a week or so, I've not been able to make any cheese at all. I'm antsy to get started tonight!
Good luck!
By the way, I think that that C201 which I couldn't make up last week what it was, is a starter bacteria for Feta type cheese.
Oh, Yoav! I'm a little apprehensive & worried (and a little heartbroken, too). I made my cheese last night. I only used one gallon of milk, as only my hubby & I like to eat this cheese (the kids can't be talked into it, my 2nd child tasted it, pronounced it yummy but decided he'd like to stick to the fetas & mont jacks). Anyway, I wrote down the recipe, cos my daughter had the laptop & I didn't feel like running back & forth to the desktop comp. I wasn't using my 200 Easy Cheeses book this time. Anyway, for some reason, I had written down 1/2 tsp rennet. Everything else is accurate, based on the 2 gal recipe (but adapted for the lesser gallon make). I honestly have no idea how I got 1/2 tsp! I even had my glasses on. Needless to say, there was a quicker set time to the curds than the last time I made it. In fact, while I was stirring it, it started curdling! :'( I have a bad feeling there will be an undesireable bitterness to this.
Will this make be salvageable at all or should I just chuck the whole thing? I just checked, it's in a big mass, fully separated from the sides of the pot, in the middle of the pot, so it's probably ready to be ladled off soon. I was thinking of maybe chancing it...unless it's totally pointless & I shouldn't even waste my time & cave space for it.
The bad thing is, I even rechecked a couple of times, but somehow, my mind had a block or something & didn't realize the discrepancy of that! Pooh..I could totally kick myself!
Well, this is turning into an accidental Camembert!
It's only one gallon, don't be so bothered. It is really important that you run cheesemaking like a pilot's chacklist and NEVER make cheese without your list.
Don't look at this like a Chaource because it's strictly a rennet-coagulated cheese now (and a very acidic one at that!) so I suggest you mold and age it like a brie (wide low disc form factor) and age it the same way. Bitterness may occur but it may also come out delicious and you would have accidentally have discovered a new cheese... My feeling is that most of that bitterness will take place once the cheese is over-aged anyway. Age it 24 days (+/-3) af 55F or 30-35 days at 50F I think this may give you ...cheese :)
LOL Funny that you say that, I was searching for "added too much rennet" & trying to see if I can even do something with it. Sigh.
I'll follow your advice & think of this as...mystery cheese. :P I won't age it as long then, to (hopefully) escape too much bitterness. Keep my fingers & toes crossed & hope for the best!
I agree with you about the checklist, too. I'm usually so obsessive about this, don't know where I dropped the ball on this. Crud!
Well, that's how some of the best cheese and techniques get discovered. The history of cheese is nothing more than a collection of "and they ate it anyway"s.
By not aging long, I meant, avoid getting it too soft or out there at the 6 week mark. Give it at least 3 weeks though, you don't want to age it too little.
Oh, right! That's what I meant, too. I would like to age it 14 days, at the very least. I actually did more than that the first time, only cos we didn't get back from vacation. I have to note that I did eat a bit of the rind of that last make..don't know if I posted that part...and it was kind of...different. Not entirely unpleasant, but not good, either. Curiousity just got the better of me. :D
You need more than 14 days for a rennet coagulated cheese like that. In my opinion, minimum 21 days. My opinion though...
Hey, your opinion is valuable to me, so I'm adding that to the note I've got on the fridge door. Poor thing will probably be all sorts of crazy/funky acting, too. I'm going to chronicle a daily photo log for my own records, too. Should be interesting!