I have been studying here at the Cheese Forum University now for about nine months. The education has been phenomenal and I am thankful for the knowledge given so freely and friendly here.
I wanted to ask of the veterans here, if I were to keep 4 or 5 cultures on hand at all times, what would they be?
I realized that depends on style, make, type, and sub type of cheese. But if I was inspired by a recipe and wanted to go to the freezer and get the cultures what would it be?
I have done a couple of Cheddars, and Red Dragon, and now a Lancashire.
Gouda and Leiden, Leyden are a family favorite. As is the Asiago and the Stilton I've tried.
Thank you,
Mark
Hi Mark-I think that you answered your own question. Have on hand the cultures that you need for the cheese types you are making.
What spices does one need to keep in his kitchen closet? :)
Well sort of...but Aroma B is somewhat but not the same as Flora Danica etc.
Say I get inspired by one of your recipes that is out of my type. Then what should have on hand that covers a spectrum and not a specific type.
I am really curious as to the basic stock someone like you and Linuxboy and Sailor keep on hand.
Quote from: Tomer1 on April 07, 2011, 08:50:43 PM
What spices does one need to keep in his kitchen closet? :)
Other than salt and pepper, Meso c101 and Thermo c201? Makes for a boring Garham Marsala. But...what's next?
Surely there's more to your basic kit than that.
Quote
I am really curious as to the basic stock someone like you and Linuxboy and Sailor keep on hand.
I don't think I'm a good standard of reference. Sailor might be, but he makes something like 20 different types of cheese.
I can tell you that the cultures you have really influence flavor. FD is not Aroma B is not probat 222 is not any of the continental CHN lines from Hansen, etc. They're similar, but make different cheeses. I can also tell you that you can use the same culture to make very different cheeses from different families. For example, take the ubiquitous MM100. Done in a cheddar, you get cheddar. Done in a lactic type, you can have chevre. Done in a bloomy rind, you can have something like a camembert. Done in a washed rind, you can have limberger. Done in a blue, you can have a basic stilton or rindless blue. Wash the curds, you can have gouda. But the hard cheeses, they to me all all variants on a theme. Say for gouda I did one of the CHN cultures instead of MM. Totally different cheese.
So it really depends, are you after making many families of cheeses and want to stock up on an all purpose culture? Or are you specific about making 4-5 types of cheese and want to focus on making the best of each type that you want?
Similar idea for thermo cultures. Strains make a big difference. If you want an all-purpose, generic culture, pick any meso that has an acidification curve that you like, and then focus on making different families of cheese for different flavor.
That's what I mean.
If you were to tell your students for example;
,
First stock Meso A and Thermo A
Then have on hand B,C, and D so you can easily vary a recipe or try one that you come across.
I am having a great time learning from all of you AND making cheese. I found a local source of Pet Food milk, now I need to invest in the cultures.
Hope to hear more.
Mark
I look at it differently. When I talk about food, the growing of food, and the creation of food, I tell people that it should spring out from that place in their being that is beyond the limits that rationality imposes. The creation of cheese from milk, by extension, must ideally reflect the purest that the creator may express at the time of creating the cheese. For a factory worker who must follow rules and regulations at the behest of authority, that purity of expression is to do the utmost to earn a living to pay expenses. For the shepherd whose love springs forth from a devotion to animals, that purity of expression reflects those ties, and often entails doing as good of a job as possible to take pride in the creation of the animals, selling cheese at all costs to provide for their upkeep and care. For the businessman who wants to run a small-scale plant, is enamored of modern buy-local movements, and is a middle ground between modernity and farmer, that motivation is yet again different, ultimately residing on doing a job "good enough" to make sales, and grow the business. For the artisan whose only purpose is to unreservedly throw himself into the madness of art, it is again altogether different, because this person competes against self alone and is driven by more than mere mortals comprehend. And for the mother feeding her children it is different, and for the engineer it is different.
I urge people in taking on the task of making food to first understand who they are and why they do as they do. After this discovery, it is easier to make some generalization about what to purchase, or whether to purchase at all. Is it about a distraction for you, to captivate your mind by the possibilities? If so, then your limit is only your budget. Is it about seeing the possibilities achieved with the same ingredients but variations on a theme? Is it about preserving tradition? Is it about replicating that cheese you had in France "when the world was younger and you had everything to lose"?
You can succeed in any of the ways I specified, and in many more. I can help figure out some best options if I know what you want to do and why.
I started with these from Cheese Maker, they can be used to make many different cheeses
Thermophilic (DS) - 5 packets Item C201
Used to make Mozzarella, Parmesan, Provolone, Romano, Swiss, Gruyere, and other Italian style cheeses, which grow in higher temperature ranges.
This culture is added directly to your milk and takes all the muss and fuss out of the culturing process.
CULTURE INCLUDES: malto dextrin, streptococcus thermophilus, lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus, lactobacillus helveticus
YIELD: Each packet will set 2 gallons of milk.
Mesophilic(DS) - 5pack Item C101
Used in making a variety of hard, moderate temperature loving cheeses including Cheddar, Monterey Jack, Stilton, Edam, Gouda, Muenster, Blue, and Colby.
This culture is added directly to your milk and takes all the muss and fuss out of the culturing process.
CULTURE INCLUDES: malto dextrin, lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis, lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
YIELD: Each packet will set up to 2 gallons of milk.
DIRECTIONS: Add 1 packet to your milk at proper temperature when recipe calls for adding starter culture.
Quote from: linuxboy on April 07, 2011, 10:33:21 PM
I urge people in taking on the task of making food to first understand who they are and why they do as they do. After this discovery.........
Good gracious! If I have to figure that out first I may never get to make cheese!
Susan
hehe :). I was feeling a bit philosophical. It doesn't have to be complex or ultimate; I was more saying in regards to cheese. It's different to make cheese as a way to preserve milk and carry you through the winter, or feeding your brothers/sisters in the monastery, vs having a hobby and having fun making all sorts of different cheeses. And the cultures depend on that, depend on the motivations and needs and preferences.
Wow, linuxboy, how lyrical...and inspirational! I love it.
Steampwr8, I would think you'd want to have some Propionic shermanii and Bacterium linens on hand. The PS can be used in quite a few hard cheeses. The b. linens can be used in soft, semi-soft, semi-hard, and hard cheeses. Seems like a lot of folks are always using b. linens in something around here. I've got an Esrom developing with SR3 right now. Before that, a couple Tommes.
-Boofer-
Let me add an appreciative nod, too, for your comments, Pav. Go as philosophical as you'd care to; I'm all ears.
Okay;
Let's start here...
Philosophically I am making cheese to a.) see if I can, and add to my knowledge base. I have done charcuterie also to add to my cooking. b.) to go to England or France via the cheese since I probably will never get the chance to go in person. c.) I get bored and then inspired so I teach myself another craft and its all fun.
Someone here, maybe Linux, said in another thread, "Take a cheese and research it. Learn all can about it, then make it." Fortunately you most always get cheese, unfortunately you don't know how close you came because you don't have the original to compare. But I try.
Let's start here
What basic Meso do you stock?
What basic Thermo do you stock?
This is why I read this forum.
Quote from: steampwr8 on April 08, 2011, 11:23:07 AM
Someone here, maybe Linux, said in another thread, "Take a cheese and research it. Learn all can about it, then make it."
Yes, it was Pav, I remember the comment, too; a thread, something along "what cheese to make?" I thought it was great advice.
To express these feelings and philosophies is exactly why I started this thread. To paraphrase Linux without putting his entire post here, most of us travel the entire gamut of his thinking. I believe his ultimate statement at the beginning is indeed the destination of ones creative ability. Once we learn baby steps and enlightenment hits us and we say, "I can do this. Now what are the possibilities." Be ready to create.
We start at "Can I do this" as a basic hobby. Then with our first successful project the engineering juices kicks in a we go about the task of solving how to set up a small but viable cheese factory that suits our level of talents and engineering prowess. We all through this process then adapt to make some cheeses that serve to be useful for every day and preserve for the future. We also find that we can economically make some varietals that cost us $10's per pound for much less and allow us to enjoy to the fullest that piece of art that is food.
Then a little entrepreneurship kicks in and says could I possibly make a little money on this. This process allows us to tweak and refine our "factory" to adapt and serve these purposes.
The Zen statement that opened his post was most profound in that it should be all of our goals to fall in love with what we do, move to put ourselves into the task with passion, and then use it to create that it might be shared with others it the hopes that they see the possibilities too.
What I have learned from being in the engineering field and technically trained, is that cooking and therefore cheesemaking is very much an engineering field. Then you move beyond that. You get to the place where you watched Grandma and Mom or someone really create in the kitchen. You truly get a feel, or what I call the use of the FORCE, you understand pinch, scosh (sic), dap. 1 1/2 teaspoons go out the window and you know exactly what to add when and how much.
To quote, "The creation of cheese from milk, by extension, must ideally reflect the purest that the creator may express at the time of creating the cheese."
This is why I guess I like to have on hand what it takes to create. If you get an urge to cook Moroccan, better have a little preserved lemon and ghee and graham marsala on hand.
Should I stock therefore B. Linens......? And then....?
Hope I didn't kill another thread...seems I do that sometimes.
QuoteWhat I have learned from being in the engineering field and technically trained, is that cooking and therefore cheesemaking is very much an engineering field. Then you move beyond that. You get to the place where you watched Grandma and Mom or someone really create in the kitchen. You truly get a feel, or what I call the use of the FORCE, you understand pinch, scosh (sic), dap. 1 1/2 teaspoons go out the window and you know exactly what to add when and how much.
If you truly want to arrive at this level of mastery, then you must work on a single cheese at a time, or maybe a family of cheese. Perhaps not exclusively, but the sensory queues and muscle and sensory memory work best when they have repeatability and reinforcement/feedback loops. Just how our brains work. It's no good to try and master cheddar and brie at the same time, for example. You could get away with doing Derby, Cheddar, Gloucester, etc.. because they're all variations on a theme.
I'll give you an example. A long time ago, I set about the task of learning to create the experience of extreme satisfaction of the simplest food possible for the largest number of people. I'm talking about stocks, of course. So I devoured the cookbooks, and read the industrial literature, and learned product formulation, and then got a roasted chicken carcass and made it. Wasn't bad, tasted like a stock, but I didn't make me close my eyes, nor did it silence the clamor of the world. So I read more, learned more, understood the principles of heat, water, and time, and their interactions with proteins, understood the properties of collagen, understood the other dynamics at play. And I tried again and again. And now I can create a stock with very few ingredients whose mouthfeel, aroma, flavor, and experience really cause a cessation of other sense because of the sensory assault of umami. Or I can take the tongue on a journey from the earth and grass through the field, up the mountain, and into the heat of the sun. It is a similar way with cheese. There are right answers, but they come through patience and perseverance.
QuoteThis is why I guess I like to have on hand what it takes to create. If you get an urge to cook Moroccan, better have a little preserved lemon and ghee and graham marsala on hand.
Makes sense. Then I suggest you do this:
- Understand the role of temperature and process variations on the paste of the cheese (no culture differences required)
- In the same group of cheeses, understand the role of culture variations (try the common ones.... spend $50 on several sachets of various blends and see what they all do)
- By this time, you should have figured out the basics of consistency, like same curd size, nuances of your setup, etc.
- Then, move on to another family and build on those skills.
- After getting the hang of a few different families, move on and keep working through. It will all click together and make sense. Or you can stop once you have figured out how to make the cheeses you want.
When I was 18 and learning to be a tinsmith, my teacher, Ernie, would look at my work and exclaim,"I said square! Bend them square! You're killing me!" and then a moment later would say, "It's alright, David. The first thousand are the hardest."
I keep that phrase in mind in everything that I do, and have often repeated it to those I was teaching various crafts. I try to make this one the best that I can, and better than the last. Constant repetition of a process trains you, until you find the work is working you.
Dave in CT
My college Physics teacher set forth this very principal. He said,"You don't learn to do something until you've done it 50 times."
This is true.
Wow, I am new here but I love the perspective you presented, Linuxboy.Even if philosophical in a way, your postings here made me feel detached and relaxed about cheese making.As a beginner I was a little tense and lost, but now I have a different perspective.
It is good to have someone write it so well and the story about stock is inspiring, it makes one want to achieve more.
Ah, linuxboy, I sat back and savored your prose like a fine wine with d'affinois and some crusty bread. I eat it up. :)
I had bought milk and some non-UHT/non-UP cream from Trader Joe's today so that I might try my hand at a Reblochon tomorrow morning. Reading your words put me back on track. Tomorrow I venture into Tomme Country again. With two in affinage presently, I still have some "work" to do in that style. The first was dunked in Merlot. The second developed a lovely b. linens rind. What to do with the rind of the third?
I have somewhat of a comfort level with Tomme at this point, but I would have been venturing into unknown wilderness with my first Reblochon. So comfort it is. What a great way to begin a Saturday morning! But...sleep first!
-Boofer-
Since we're waxing philosophically...
I introduced 10 different cheeses at our local Farmer's Market today. Lots of great feedback. Towards the end of the day, two women walk up to the table and start sampling. As I start talking to them, I noticed that the first woman had a heavy British accent. She worked her way down the table and came to the last cheese - a 6 month old Caerphilly. Her eyes got big and she said "Oh my". Then she tasted a sample and started crying. Her friend asked her what was wrong, and the woman smiled and said, "It reminds me of home".
Wow did that make my day. Sales are great, but a reaction like that is priceless.
That's beautiful, congratulations, Sailor. :)
BTW, I asked Pav about his post, re: making one cheese (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6489.msg46269.html#msg46269), and he was kind enough to direct me to it. I'm taking the liberty of reprinting it - hope that's OK, friend, thought it to be fantastic advice:
Quote from: linuxboyAlso do this: pick one cheese, just one cheese, not even a family, and learn everything you can about it. Learn the history, the people who made it, the milk, why they made it, how they aged it, and then go on to the microbiological and other aspects. As you go through these exercises, especially the chem/bio side, ask yourself:
- If I added more/less of rennet or culture, what would happen? How does it affect cheese flavor
- If I waited longer/shorter at this step, what would happen? How does it affect cheese flavor?
- If I Increased/decreased temp at this step, what would happen? How does it affect cheese flavor?
If you can do this for one cheese, just one cheese, you'll find it will take you only a few days before you can answer those questions for another cheese.
Blessed are the cheesemakers
'tis we, who craft, purvey and peddle rot
of thrice-transformed green fields and sunny skies
Transmogrify the crude and milky lot
From babe's sole heaven to a clever guise
We toil by night, by day, and in between
Maddened by vision that the unseen sees
To scrub the pots, foregoing sleep to clean
To feed the creatures and to turn the cheese
Ours is the blessing; we lay claim to it
As boldly as the lamb seeks new-found sight
So none may suffer, we ourselves acquit
Of worldly wisdom, of the brawn and might
And in humility expose for all to taste
What God's hand wrought, and what our meekness braced
Thank you, Pav. :)
Is this yours?
I would add the obvious--the longer a particular cheese (or family) needs to age, the longer it takes to get a handle on how the variables affect the end result. The other aspect beyond particular culture and make procedures is the simplicity or complexity of affinage and the affect of different affinage on identical cultures/identical cheeses. In that way lactic cheeses or pasta filata might be the easiest and the granas some of the hardest to get a handle on. Meaning, I could make 50 mozzarellas in 50 days and use the experience of each make for the next.and probably be be pretty good at it. To make 50 Parmesans and use the learning from one make on the next would take years (math expert calculation??).
Quote
Is this yours?
Indeed.
Quotethe longer it takes to get a handle on how the variables affect the end result.
This is often the case in smaller scale settings, but there are many shortcuts to seeing how small changes affect final flavor without having to wait so long and/or without multiple iterations. Typically used in academia and large institutions. There are various prototyping tools, such as using a machine to create very small cheeses, and many of them, in order to explore the effects of changes on cheese. It doesn't help too much with the sensory aspects in terms of teaching oneself the differences in the curd and make, but it can help to create a very solid process for repeatably making cheese.
Quote from: linuxboy on April 10, 2011, 08:22:00 AM
Quote
Is this yours?
Indeed.
Un poème très beau, mon ami.
Quote from: linuxboy on April 10, 2011, 08:22:00 AMQuotethe longer it takes to get a handle on how the variables affect the end result.
This is often the case in smaller scale settings, but there are many shortcuts to seeing how small changes affect final flavor without having to wait so long and/or without multiple iterations. Typically used in academia and large institutions. There are various prototyping tools, such as using a machine to create very small cheeses, and many of them, in order to explore the affect of changes on cheese. It doesn't help too much with the sensory aspects in terms of teaching oneself the differences in the curd and make, but it can help to create a very solid process for repeatably making cheese.
Of interest to me as well. I understand the pilot-plant nature of a machine like you're discussing, but it seems to me the sensory feedback loop is critical to this notion you posited so well, of working one cheese or family of cheeses to learn effects of make changes.
If that is the case, the question is still raised for me, how is the situation accommodated when one is dealing with long-aged cheeses, with part of their very profile being their large size? (e.g., there will be different affinage and final characteristics for a 2kg, home-style "beaufort," and a true 45kg wheel). Presuming a pilot-plant idea, in other words, what sorts of things can actually be learned by manipulating variables on smaller, presumably shorter-aged cheeses, if one is wanting to hone in on, say, a classic Gruyère or Gruyère family (ahem...beaufort, Comté)?
Thanks, Pav.
Edited to add: (I should say, I know the obvious answer would be to just make a ton of cheeses at roughly the same time with different process variables, then age them as normal, and try them. Was simply curious if there really is a way to understand dynamics by doing these large, long-aged cheeses in a kind of nano-version, via the pilot plant machine process you raise, above).
It's a completely different mindset. The plant mindset is that enough can be abstracted that you can do something completely different in the process, yet still learn from it. For example, in making mini cheeses, the emphasis is flavor and rheology. So the rheology can be tested by mechanical means with a machine. And flavor can be measured by using a mass spectrometer.
It's a very basic way to do things. If you wanted to imitate comte, you'd have to design a process to work for smaller cheeses, and then figure out a way to replicate the wash on a very small scale. maybe by extracting enzymes from b linens and putting the enzymes directly in the cheese, and comparing the results at 1-2 months with the real thing, and then seeing the differences, and creating a model that accounts for differences and bias. It's a whole other game. Tends to work for figuring out flavor of bulk cheeses though, like cheddar.
You use the results from a chemical point of view. If the sensory profile for a specific group fit, then you move into larger-scale production, and then into sensory panels, etc. Standard geeky R&D type stuff.
With sensory learning, it wouldn't be possible to do small cheeses. Maybe small-er. Not full size comte, but say, a 3-lb wheel.
Gotcha, thanks, Pav. Prior to reading Fox, I had zero knowledge that there was even such a thing as rheology testing, with force and sheer equipment; zero knowledge that it got down to this level in the industry. It's all very interesting. At Goose (the brewery where I worked), sensory panels were a daily part of our lives, not for R&D so much, as for QC, and very little ever went wrong - pretty tight process controls, even with something as variable as yeast, barley protein and starch content, and hop a-acid contents.
I was just hoping to find a way to address the problem, from a very personal standpoint, of loving long-aged, alpine-style cheeses, and wanting to perfect them in this one life. (Yes, I'm approaching 50...so going apocalyptic, it seems). Assuming a billion makes of 4 pound versions, I'm still trying to wrangle with the nagging notion that the 4 pound parameters would be so far removed from the real thing, that it would be difficult to abstract the process variables to the larger scale, yes?
It seems many of the makers I've looked at - Uplands, Thistle Hill, for example - simply went to the Savoie (or worked with consultants to devise recipes and methods), learned "a way" from the learned, experienced makers, and emulated the process back home; I'd imagine very little manipulation of the learned orthodoxy, except to deal with problems as they come up in any cave.
QuoteI'm still trying to wrangle with the nagging notion that the 4 pound parameters would be so far removed from the real thing, that it would be difficult to abstract the process variables to the larger scale, yes?
No, if you preserve the height to diameter to volume ratios, it's almost exactly the same. Ripens a little faster and tends to lose water a little faster, but that's it. Also salt uptake dynamic is just a little different, but not too much.
Quote
It seems many of the makers I've looked at - Uplands, Thistle Hill, for example - simply went to the Savoie (or worked with consultants to devise recipes and methods), learned "a way" from the learned, experienced makers, and emulated the process back home;
Yes, exactly. They make great cheese because of raw milk quality and attention to detail, not because they are some unattainable gods of cheesemaking. Seriously, it's not that hard.
QuoteI'd imagine very little manipulation of the learned orthodoxy, except to deal with problems as they come up in any cave.
mm, kind of. Uplands had to adjust for a different wheel size, different milk, etc. But you're absolutely right, the core make of the alpine style is the same. You start with great alpage milk, make it when it's really fresh, select proper cultures so that the flavor potential is there, then drain early for high calcium, baby the rind a little, and then let it go do its thing. But right, the core make is exactly the same, adapted for different equipment and situation.
OK, thanks, Pav. I had thought that even if the aspect ratios were the same or similar, that a substantially smaller wheel would mean enough of a dramatic difference in aging - e.g., especially for a rind-smear ripened cheese, the proteolytic, pH, salinity gradients - to mean it would be difficult to abstract to the larger wheels.
Hear you on the milk. And so it goes back to where it should, of course - with the quality of materials used.
That said, this drive was prompted by your comments on mastering a given cheese, or family of cheeses; doing so, by manipulating key variables in the process. I thought it was great advice. This would seem to me to differ, however, from a kind of mastery of orthodoxy - from learning, say, from a Savoie producer, as an apprentice learns, by attention to detail and a rigorous standard of care.
Perhaps I'm making too much of this. I know my sincere desire is simply to master Gruyère, and a big part of that is to capture the deep sense of Alpage that I've tasted in the makes I've really loved. Perhaps it's not so much after all about playing with multiple variations among pH, temp, time. renneting, cultures, strains, but about understanding a few key things, and doing them exceedingly well.
Quoteeven if the aspect ratios were the same or similar, that a substantially smaller wheel would mean enough of a dramatic difference in aging - e.g., especially for a rind-smear ripened cheese,
For a substantially smaller wheel, you're right. Going down to even a 4 lb wheel can be done, though. You can reduce diameter and get away with it. Leaves you more rind to sell, but it works.
QuoteThis would seem to me to differ, however, from a kind of mastery of orthodoxy - from learning, say, from a Savoie producer, as an apprentice learns, by attention to detail and a rigorous standard of care.
There is absolutely no need for this requirement, to apprentice. It is a useful shortcut. And some people require the relationship and structured environment to learn the details because they gain confidence and because this is their learning style. Orthodoxy is useful to the degree... often new approaches are easier and more consistent.
Quoteabout understanding a few key things, and doing them exceedingly well.
Yes, this is the case with alpine styles. Alpines are about milk and affinage (and cultures). The make is basically to stir everything in, heat the heck out of it, and make it into a wheel. Your pH is somewhat irrelevant, slight variability will not affect paste too much. Too much calcium for that even if you drain at 6.3. Time matters, but really more for moisture than acidity. Rennet matters some, but again, more about moisture, and rennet quality. A lamb rennet vs a calf rennet will not give you drastically different flavor profiles. Kid rennet will, but not the right rennet here. Cultures matter an extreme degree.
Thank you Pav, always very helpful and very much appreciated.
As you know, I'm still working on cementing my understanding of fundamentals - both practical technique, and background science. That would include the dynamics of each of the specific cultures, in a make; per recent conversations, if MM100 is a faster acidifier than AromaB, why that is so is something I'd like, almost feel compelled, to learn. Additionally, knowing that it isn't just species, but strains, that matter, another lacuna in my learning that I really feel obliged to master. In case others might find this helpful - among your knowledge-travels, any particular recommendations to zero in on cheese cultures, their behavior, and even strain-specifics?
If you're after replicating just one type, just skip all the commercial culture BS and go autochthonous - take it from the Europeans. Heck that's what Danisco and Hansen and others do, like for Hansen's Emfour product. You don't need to learn all this stuff necessarily and experiment and do product formulation, unless you want to do it for fun. Just about nobody in the industry really goes for the microbio side, unless you're in academia. There are a very few, like Kendall at Lark's Meadow (who posts here) who even have experience in it. The core research here is done by people who have money, and government institutions. Not necessary to make great cheese.
And if you're making Alpine types, it's not about meso, but thermo. That's where the flavor is.
Quotewhy that is so
Because the cells can transport food faster and have more mitochondria and have higher metabolisms. How that is relevant to Alpine cheeses I have no idea.
Quoteanother lacuna in my learning that I really feel obliged to master
Alright, but why go through the trouble if you're not going isolate your own native strains and bank them. Or are you? That's a lot of work.
Quoteany particular recommendations to zero in on cheese cultures, their behavior, and even strain-specifics
Yes, but you're looking at something like 300 papers to read. Some of them are sizeable dissertations, 250+ pages. I can start sending them to you, but why anyone would go through that much torture I have no idea.
I think part of it is just a native (and irrational) frustration that I don't know, and will never know, everything the human mind can know, to be honest, Pav, but then we've talked about this. Something of the tongue's tip taste of this stuff, only driving a pure hunger to know more - without the years, resources or wiring to do it.
As to acidification properties, goes back to this comment (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,3556.msg46341.html#msg46341) by Sailor, which stuck:
QuoteSo you can either wait it out and ignore the times in the recipes, follow the recipe times and ignore the pH targets, or compensate for the slower pH curve. You can add more Aroma B to begin with to boost the acid producers, but you are also adding more of the other bacteria as well. Or you can add a little extra MA in the beginning to add more of just the strong acid producers. NOW you are creating a custom mix that defines you as a cheesemaker.
- if one can know something of why a species or strain behaves as it does, one can use the knowledge to make a cognitive leap to other techniques, or effective troubleshooting. This was my reasoning, anyway.
As to learning something of individual strains, just based on several comments (I suspect, though can't specifically recall, many if not most by you), on the importance of the behavior of not only individual species, but individual strains, in realizing effects during makes. Part of it is I just marvel at your seemingly open-ended, encyclopedic grasp of individual strains - you will reference "XYZ 213" and it is a world apart from anything I know; yet it seems important, the nagging feeling there are certain known behavior patterns (e.g., acidification curve) that would allow me to fine-tune a make (say, preservation of colloidal calcium). I acknowledge I may be putting too much stock into "fine-tuning" as it is - all posts here notwithstanding - slowly sinking in that many cheeses, particularly among those I love to make and eat, have a fairly wide parameter of play.
As to the "300" (sounds ominously like thi (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416449/)s...!), I'll tap you once I can confidently assert I have incorporated Fox's Fundamentals. ;D
Edit: Sorry, also neglected your "autochthonous" notion. I presume you mean, utilizing/developing native strains to one's locale, not ranching strains from, say, Jura, yes? Do you simply mean, in the case of concentrating on an alpine-style, use raw milk and depend on its native microbiota, do a thermo/scalded make, age it in one's cave, and build an ambient flora environment, over time?
QuoteSomething of the tongue's tip taste of this stuff, only driving a pure hunger to know more - without the years, resources or wiring to do it.
Ah, well, you can do what most other people do. Blindly follow a recipe, understanding the basics, and then learn more and more over time. I mean, c'mon, the people who actually make cheese, even in smaller plants, they follow a process written down on a piece of paper and check various quality control points, sometimes knowing enough to make adjustments. Most of the time, they just make cheese and know very little beyond the basics.
Quotewhy a species or strain behaves as it does, one can use the knowledge to make a cognitive leap to other techniques
That's true, but most of the important details are acidification rate given temp, time, and food. And that's a rather finite set of possibilities.
Quotemany cheeses, particularly among those I love to make and eat, have a fairly wide parameter of play
Right, I've written before about the core tradeoffs. It's pH at renneting, pH at drain/curd-fuse, and pH at salt. But again, not straightforward. Overshot your drain pH because moisture wasn't there? No problem, wash the curds with water, makes about the same cheese. Overshot your rennet pH? No problem, speed up the make a little to make up for it. it is forgiving, provided that you have good milk.
Quotenot ranching strains from, say, Jura, yes...age it in one's cave, and build an ambient flora environment, over time?
No, I'm saying cheat. Use microbiology to your advantage. The reason old timers used their hands and sense to measure decision points is because the science was not available. If they had freeze dried culture on the farm, you bet they'd use it. And now that it's available, most small farmers do. By cheating I mean just that, farm out the strains from Jura and similar Savoie areas. They've done the work over the years of selectively isolating what works. Or use Emfour. Or get some of the strains from ATCC or the little culture shops in Europe. I could send some e-mails, import a few, but you'd need to bank them and do bulk culture yourself.
Thanks for the further clarifications, Pav. Another much appreciated exchange.
Paul
So to achieve these goals what basic culture repertoire should I start with.
Thermophilic:(Single strains so I can mix?)
1. TA61
2. LH100
Mesophilic:
1. MA011
2. Aroma B or Flora Danica
3. MM100
Mold
1. P. Roqueforti
2. B. Linens
Ripening Agent
1. Propionic Shermanii
And?
steampwr,
If you would like to get started on reblochons or the likes of them, maybe some yeast (KL7) and geo. Some penicilium candidum could be useful if you want to make some camemberts.
That's a good start. When you get to complex natural rinds, it will start all over again in terms of rind ecosystems. Suggest you do one thing at a time (process/acidity control first)
This thread has been both thought provoking and enlightening.
I started with an easy question and learned so much more.
Feel free to add more. It is going into one of my manuals on cultures.
Thank you,
Mark
Yeah, my head's spinning too! :o
I'm just a lowly cheesemaker trying to find my way through the transmogrification of milk to something else. This discussion has been invigorating, but I'm worn out now.
-Boofer-
Animal rennet or Vegetable rennet....
Which do you all prefer...
Have you read my rennet article?
http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73:understanding-coagulants&catid=47:starter-cultures&Itemid=67 (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73:understanding-coagulants&catid=47:starter-cultures&Itemid=67)
My preference, for hard cheese (for my goat's milk)
- Lamb 4-week, no pre-gastric esterase (PGE, aka lipase) preservation approach
- Kid 3-4-week, no PGE
- Calf 4-5-week, PGE is fine
- FPC
For soft cheese:
- kid 4-5 week, no PGE
- lamb 4-5 week, no PGE
- calf 4-5 week, no PGE
- FPC
- Cardoon
But note that I usually make my own.
Yes I have read your site cover to cover and made a primer out of much of it, I will review it.
This site needs to be downloadable or in book form....
Thank you for what you do.
Sure wish we could meet in person.
Friends,
Mark