OK, well, I am concentrating on Beaufort.
However, a man's gotta eat. And my son, all of 10 years old with a palate begun as a French chef's kid, has really been wanting me to make some reblochon. So, justifying my journey as one of being a Savoie kind of guy, an alpine kind of guy, I've now made some tommes, a couple of beauforts, and two batches of reblochon. Pics to follow.
I adapted the recipe from Mtncheesemaker (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5677.0/topicseen.html)and SueVT (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,3120.15.html)(many thanks, friends). Also, as usual, consulted with both Pav and Francois, who were helpful as always.
Ultimately, for 2 gallons of creamline milk, went with a 0.8% MM100 primer, 1/32 tsp Thermo C (was thinking of straight ST, but wanted some of the LH properties from the ThermoC, after reflection), 1/16 geo, 1/32 candidum, 1/16 linens. Per discussions with Pav, took it all the way down to 6.45 before renneting, to aid in the development of a moister curd. That, and ensured an even 1/2" cut, retained through a careful stirring and cooking; first time I was really happy with the uniformity of the cubes, which stayed intact quite well through the entire stirring/cooking process. Acidity curve still a bit fast for what I was shooting for, but still happy with a 5.10 final pH before salting (Pav also lent his encouragement, here).
I only had camembert molds, no available cheesecloth, so these were simply flipped under their own weight. Especially on the first 3 wheels (each 3 gallons yielded about 3 x 11.5 oz. wheels), there are mechanical openings, but I can live with them - will be dealing with light weights in batches down the road.
Very happy to say that after a mere 3 days of dips in 3% linens brine, there is a nice beginning of red taking off everywhere. This is the first time I've seen such a linens takeoff, so quickly, and I'm pretty stoked (sorry - born California surf boy, if I'm a pastoral man, in my heart, now).
Thanks everyone, for such a wealth of knowledge and camaraderie, here.
Paul
Nice chronicle, thanks!
Thanks, smiling. One thing I just came across - forgotten from my first pass through Fox's Fundamentals, is the symbiotic relationship between ST and LH in the production of acid; the LH's peptidases aid ST growth and the ST's micro-production of CO2, among other things, aids in LH growth; both together symbiotically increase acid production when compared to either alone.
As I mentioned, I'm still trying to slow down my acid curves, and one thing I think I'll try, and this is a general note, is experimenting with just ST, or pulling back considerably in my use of LH (stabilizing and flavor effects, however, also being taken into account).
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on April 13, 2011, 01:05:40 AM
OK, well, I am concentrating on Beaufort.
Alright! And here I thought your gearshift was stuck in "hard". ;)
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on April 13, 2011, 01:05:40 AM
Per discussions with Pav, took it all the way down to 6.45 before renneting, to aid in the development of a moister curd.
How long did it take for you to reach 6.45? Very curious.
-Boofer-
Quote from: Boofer on April 13, 2011, 01:11:01 PM
Alright! And here I thought your gearshift was stuck in "hard". ;)
I, uh, don't quite know what to say. :o
Quote from: Boofer on April 13, 2011, 01:11:01 PMHow long did it take for you to reach 6.45? Very curious.
1.75 hours. I went with a very light primer inoculation of 0.8%, so expected a slow initial ripening, but the faster-than-expected acidity curve through the drain is still something I'm working on. I think I might go up on the meso primer, and tweak the blend of ST and LH, per the above, to learn more about the symbiotic dynamics of the thermos, during the drain and initial post-make hours.
Arnaud,
Congratulations on your new attempts. Looks like everything went well. I would love to see my b.linens take off as well as yours.
I currently have two reblochons aging in my fridge (I think it's been one month) and I keep on poking them, hoping they will get ripe soon.
Thanks, Helen. I'm shocked, to be honest, but will take the pleasant surprise, to be sure. I'm also knocking on wood as I know a lot can go wrong from here. But thankfully, I hit some markers during the make, and my setup allows a good RH, so...I'm grateful.
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on April 13, 2011, 01:18:10 PM
Quote from: Boofer on April 13, 2011, 01:11:01 PM
Alright! And here I thought your gearshift was stuck in "hard". ;)
I, uh, don't quite know what to say. :o
Quote from: Boofer on April 13, 2011, 01:11:01 PMHow long did it take for you to reach 6.45? Very curious.
1.75 hours.
My "gearshift" reference was to vehicle manual transmissions that could occasionally appear to be lodged in a lower gear and yet the driver wanted to shift to a higher gear. Sorry if that threw you for a loop. Matter-of-fact there was a song written about just that dilemma (attachment).
I guess it's somewhat comforting to know that your make did take a little time to get to the renneting pH point.
-Boofer-
Lol...Boof, I got your drift. Just a bad combination of my sense of humor and the dryness of written text on a webpage, I'm afraid... :-[
In planning for my next Beaufort, I've been thinking about all kinds of scenarios to tweak the acidification curve. I'd read it before, but only cursorily so didn't remember until reading it again last night, but Fox et al's Fundamentals (p. 406) indicates that Beaufort typically only uses LH for acidification.
Given that ST is known as a relatively fast acidifier, and LH a relatively slower acidifier, I'm considering playing with this. Ideally, I'd like to tighten up the initial ripening a bit - maybe, a higher primer % of a meso acidifier - and slow down the drain pH drop; so perhaps a larger inoculation of MM100, it dies, and LH takes over for a slower, gentler dive down to salting pH target.
AF, I'm shocked. No pictures? :'(
Quote from: george on April 14, 2011, 02:18:55 PM
AF, I'm shocked. No pictures? :'(
Yeah, I know, I'm usually keen on showing my babies, just thought these were nothing dramatic. Sorry for the quality:
Batch 1 on the right, batch 2 on the left:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/Atday5.jpg)
Closer on batch 1:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/Batch1CU-1.jpg)
Closer on batch 2:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/Batch2cu.jpg)
The feel of these are as springy little sponges, when compared to my other cheeses (obviously, just a cool experience for me to see the difference between these, and my beauforts or tommes).
I still haven't gotten around to reading that text. It's hard enough to get to the library before it closes, and don't know if they'll even have that book. I'd probably even need to shoot down to UC Davis to get a look at it. Wish I could talk my boss into buying it for me. Anyone know if I could write it off as a deduction on taxes?
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on April 14, 2011, 01:20:11 PM
Given that ST is known as a relatively fast acidifier, and LH a relatively slower acidifier, I'm considering playing with this. Ideally, I'd like to tighten up the initial ripening a bit - maybe, a higher primer % of a meso acidifier - and slow down the drain pH drop; so perhaps a larger inoculation of MM100, it dies, and LH takes over for a slower, gentler dive down to salting pH target.
Sounds like a good strategy. I like it.
That seems like a reasonable approach to shorten the initial ripening period. Three hours is way too long! I've had quite a few makes that take that much time before renneting. I wouldn't know that if it weren't for the ExStick. I guess I'm learning to work with my meter more amicably.
-Boofer-
Thanks, Boof, for the nod.
I'm pleased to report - knock on wood - my 3rd Extech is the charm. I have to again commend the customer service folks, who didn't even bat an eye, in sending me a second replacement. They literally tested this specific unit at the plant, and, so far, it is working great.
My hesitation on the exclusive or heavy-balanced LH usage comes from Pav's comment (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,3556.msg45327.html#msg45327) on the bizarre proteolysis profile; additionally, I just re-read an article (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=PdfExcerptURL&_imagekey=B8H4B-4P4278F-C-1&_uoikey=B8H4B-4P4278F-C&_piikey=S1874558X04800423&_cdi=42602&_user=4861547&_acct=C000063557&_version=1&_userid=4861547&md5=7fee3ba3a84dcb979916f9baf68c093f&ie=/excerpt.pdf) (PDF) on cheeses with Propionic fermentation; as Pav was indicating:
QuoteSome decades ago, Lb. helveticus was a major component of starter cultures in the manufacture of Swiss Emmental. Due to its intensive peptidolytic activity, which promotes late fermentation, it has been replaced by Lb. delbrueckii subsp, lactis.
Streptococci play a minor role in proteolysis.
So, a quandary, given my goals (faster renneting drop, slower draining drop), my understanding of the relative acidification power of ST and LH, Fox's comments, and my trust of and respect for Pav's experience a good deal nevertheless. I similarly have trust and respect for Francois's expertise, and have consulted him as well about this, but as I know both gents are quite busy, I may be on my own here.
So: ST is a faster acidifier, and a lesser peptidolytic contributor; L. helveticus is a slower acidifier, and, from what I've read, both a decent lipolytic agent (creating substantial FFAs) and peptidolytic agent (proline, which is part of its "sweetness," among others, I believe). The risk of "late fermentation" also gives pause, but then, LH is a blend of both L. helveticus and L. delbrueckii ssp. lactis. Not sure of the ratio (though just called Dairy Connections, they indicated 50/50; will go on the working presumption).
Sigh - no one "perfect" solution, as always, every choice is, as usual, a decision point that has implications for the path downstream. Will likely come down to an experiment, and risking failure; but c'est la vie, I suppose - how else to learn? :)
I think the reblochons look very good. I know someone that will be eating tartiflette for a long time!
For the longest time, I told myself that I did not need a phmeter. But I think I am caving in. I want to understand better what is going on with my cheese. Your posts are always very instructive and I think it gave me the push I needed.
Thanks for the kind thought, Helen. Everything I've learned about cheesemaking has come from this site, and its very gifted and generous set of makers. I feel really grateful to have come upon it.
I know it's a comfort for me, too, having a reliable meter - in tandem with sensory feedback, to have knowing key points during the make in an objective, measurable way, knowing what's going on with these tiniest of critters and their substrate, is really satisfying. Best of luck ahead!
Paul
Edit: Just saw this, smiling:
Quote from: smilingcalicoI still haven't gotten around to reading that text. It's hard enough to get to the library before it closes, and don't know if they'll even have that book. I'd probably even need to shoot down to UC Davis to get a look at it. Wish I could talk my boss into buying it for me. Anyone know if I could write it off as a deduction on taxes?
I think I'm lucky to live close to UW Madison, with its extensive ag/dairy/cheese science departments, and associated ease of obtaining the texts. Have you tried interlibrary loan?
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on April 15, 2011, 02:17:21 PM
The risk of "late fermentation" also gives pause,
Overthinking this. You can't apply emmenthaler technology to beaufort. Doesn't work that way. Whereas late acidification is terrible for emmenthaler because of the narrow range optimal for propionic, it tends to be in equilibrium in beaufort. Emmenthaler has less salt, temps are different, etc. Also strains differ, different dynamics. Those changes from helveticus to bulgaricus (really, the change wasn't to bulgaricus per se all the time, but the new strains were often called bulgaricus because of their properties. Remember helveticus and bulgaricus characteristics before genotyping were done on their properties, like Galactose + or -) were made before the current advancements in strain typing and characteristic profiling.
Also, Fox is right, but somewhat incomplete. You can adjunct with ST without adversely affecting flavor, yet getting the acidity curve you want. Look at modern cheeses. Cheddar often has ST in it now because of phage issues and to ensure acidification (not much worse worse than having a 10,000 liter vat fail due to phage). Low fat cheddar is made with ST to give it better structure and mouthfeel. Soft cheeses are adjuncted with it for acidification and to stabilize, etc, etc. Look at what I invented with my combo of extreme flavor formation with Leuconostoc and extreme texture and stabilization with ST. Someone's probably taken my idea and is making bank with it, and if not, it's bound to happen. You're not limited by tradition. Try and see. Without alpage milk and without better strains than LH, you won't get to the exact flavor profile you want, anyway. It'll be good, though.
The dynamic of faster rennet drop and slower drain drop is accomplished naturally with raw milk through meso and ST. Then you scald it, really stops the fermentation. Beaufort scald is drastic, huge rise over 30 mins. Then drain and keep in the warm room, and slowly, slowly it will build up acidity like a tomme
Thanks for the reply, Pav. Yes, on the risk of late fermentation, I glossed over the fact this was in specific reference to emmental, which obviously has an entirely different aging profile. I saw "helveticus" in general relation to "propionic cheeses," and given the usual dearth of discussion on Beaufort, specifically, I made an illogical leap. Thanks for pointing it up. I also recall the means used to name, formerly - the journey of some of these species among genera seems pretty wild.
Per my reasoning above, I'm seeking a faster initial ripening, to renneting target; and a slower draining curve. It seemed the culprits formerly were both a low meso inoculation %, and, perhaps, too heavy an ST component, or the symbiosis of both ST and LH, at any rate, was making for a fast drop during draining. I'm just curious - you mention that LH can have a weird proteolytic effect on the cheese, and I see from other articles evidence corroborating this. I didn't see Fox's omitting ST, as much as indicating helveticus's association with Beaufort - without mention of this proteolytic issue. Searching for more, today, I saw it it elsewhere, too (some handbook on technology, wrote "helveticus" as the sole accompaniment to Beaufort, if my memory is correct).
Given I am using a pasteurized milk - can you go into more, precisely, what sort of proteolytic trouble is one inviting using (in this case, a blend of L. delbrueckii ssp. lactis and) L. helveticus, with little or no ST? I ask, because given:
Quote from: PavThe dynamic of faster rennet drop and slower drain drop is accomplished naturally with raw milk through meso and ST. Then you scald it, really stops the fermentation. Beaufort scald is drastic, huge rise over 30 mins. Then drain and keep in the warm room, and slowly, slowly it will build up acidity like a tomme
In following Sailor's recipe - initially, 1/8 DVI MM100, 1/16 "+" ST, 1/12 LH, 1/24 prop., I got a really fast renneting ripening, and a really fast drain drop; going with the 1% MM100, and the same thermo ratios, I again got a really fast drain drop. Both times, I achieved the cooking rise in the time prescribed. So, I concluded this has something to do with the ST component, as its the "fast" thermo acidifier, and hence my desire to try a lower (or no) ST, and higher LH.
Perhaps it all comes down to the fact I'm seeking a slower drain drop for no other logical reason than....that's what I see in recipes, and what has been done traditionally (I see makes that go up to 24 hours in the press). So, I was going backwards...trying to slow down the drain drop, rather than asking why that might, or might not be important. I better understand the dynamics and importance of vat pH changes, now. I have to admit, I don't know why one would want a drain period of 8 hours press, 24 in the hoop at room temp to reach salting pH, v. 8 hours press, and half that period, to achieve the same thing. And if ST would cut that final drop time in half without any deleterious effects - or even, an improvement in quality - heck yes, I'd be the first to jettison my traditionalist blinders, which I'm aware can be a problem for me.
Edit: Want to express a BIG thank you to Pav, once again. What is at his mind's readiness is still reeling inside mine, so will have to wait for later to pull it together so it's helpful to others, but suffice it to say he once again lent a huge hand. Thanks, Pav. :)
Thanks to you both for this discussion. I must admit though, I'd have to be in the Space Shuttle to understand a lot of it...it's way over my head. Very technical. I do grasp some of it as it flitters by, and for that I am grateful.
In my second Beaufort, done in December, I made a slight measuring error in my LH. Instead of 1/12 tsp, I ended up putting in 3/16 tsp (don't ask!). It looks good so far, if the rind is any indicator (no, it's not). 1/8 Aromatic B, 1/16 thermo, 1/16 propionic. Hey, around Halloween I should know for certain. ;)
-Boofer-
Hey Boof - I have to give a big hand to both Pav and Francois, who really came through today with some extraordinary help - a good marriage of background science and practical application.
They both have the gifts I don't possess - both the wiring to easily handle this stuff, and the ability to make it clear and easily understood for folks like myself. I wish I had either gift, but like you, I'm trying.
All preface to saying, they were really generous, though I know both are busy; so I will do my best to honor what I learned from them today with a "Beaufort 3" thread, as I'm in the middle of a make as I write this. I hope my notes and thoughts derived from them are correct, and do justice to these two gents' thoughts. Stay tuned, on another thread.
Very interested. As I've said before, "looking over your shoulder...".
-Boofer-
Quote from: Boofer on April 16, 2011, 05:13:06 AM
Very interested. As I've said before, "looking over your shoulder...".
-Boofer-
Thanks, Boof. The make went pretty smoothly, and just finishing up the drain/press this morning. Will hope to write up "Beaufort 3" imminently. (It's a good thing you're looking over my shoulder, as I'm doing the same, as well as craning my neck to try to soak up all that "the gurus" are teaching....!).
Meanwhile, back to reblochon, my candidum has exploded. I'd like an even "mat" of both linens and white - in this pic, not even sure whether the "white" is yeast (I'll include geo here) or candidum, knocked back and told to behave (I really nothing about candidum dynamics, never used it before). Anyway, this would be an ideal result, for me (thanks, Yoav (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4291.msg32743.html#msg32743)):
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/800px-Reblochon_AOC.jpg)
I'd say I need to spray with a heavy linens wash every other day, but my gut tells me - as I say, I have zero experience with candidum, or even "wet" linens, smear cheeses - that I need to knock this back with some pretty decent smearing. Or pat it down? Any suggestions?
edit: well, that was easy (I think; I hope!). Simply washed back with a linens brine. If they continue to develop like this, with a sticky white/red blending, I'll be really happy. Pics (taken really quickly - sorry for the quality):
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/4-16afterwashing.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/4-16afterwashing-2.jpg)
Paul,
All my reblochons have this phase when white seems to take over. However, after a couple of good washing, b.linens becomes pre-dominant again.
Nice looking cheeses!
- Helen
Thanks a lot, Helen. After washing this once, it did seem like the right option, too - I was very happy to see the result. On the other hand, I've been in conversation with Francois, and based on that exchange, I am curious to see what happens if I just let the ecology cascade more or less develop naturally; see what happens if the candidum is left undisturbed and dies back. I may try both, as I've got 6 wheels.
Whoa, Nelly - very interesting. I've been washing 4 of the 6 wheels with 3% linens, the other 2, I've simply been allowing the p. candidum to take its course. On the latter 2, there is still a thick mat of spongy candidum, and whiff of mushroom, and even a faint touch of ammonia; on the 4 regularly-washed wheels, man - linens funk! Additionally, they are getting really soft to the touch (esp. from the sides - top and bottom, less so). From 2 to 2 1/2 weeks only, between the 2 makes! I would not have expected this fast of a development - was shooting for 45-60 days, per what I read was "normal."
Couple views of the "unwashed," p. candidum-heavy wheels:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/pcandidum25.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/pcandidum225.jpg)
And a pic of a wheel that has received regular washing. Note the color, and the soft, caved-in indentation:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/linens25.jpg)
I know Yoav has indicated reblochons get no linens wash; besides perhaps an early surfeit of linens, and keeping in mind these are "stabilized" wheels with thermo cultures, I'm surprised by this rapid fire (perhaps, in a deleterious way, in terms of flavor, aroma and texture?) proteolysis, and linens development, ahead of the curve. Any thoughts, here?
Edit:
Lol...my instincts told me that even though I was seeing the above, the firmness at top and bottom meant we have a ways to go, yet.
My instincts lost, and my impatience and tyro's overeagerness to investigate won out:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/cu1.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/cu2.jpg)
Lessons learned. If it's obvious I've got development, not sure if it's clear, but this is definitely a lesson in "ripening from the outside in" and "gradients." Mom and lad are drooling their praise, but they are fam, after all; I do think an objective appraisal would say, taste is getting there, developing nicely - just not there, yet. It's actually been some time since I've had a true reblochon - I've forgotten - this liquid an outer area, a flaw, at this stage of the game (with the inner paste still rather dense, pas leger, still holding up firmly?
Paul,
I love how you experiment with things.
My reblochons (and all my smeared cheeses) usually go through this phase... to the point where handling them will cause the outer layer to squish under my finger. I am wondering if that might not be some case of light slip skin.
I usually displace them to the regular fridge for a couple of weeks once they become too fragile to handle without irreversible damage to the rind. I find that this strengthens the rind and after two to three weeks, I move them back to my "cave"/wine fridge to continue the ripening.
I am not saying that this is the perfect thing to do... just what has been working for me.
Thanks, Helen. I really am sticking to alpine styles, so not very adventuresome, but this first foray into soft, stinkier cheeses has been fun.
You nailed it - slip skin. Now I know what that particular bundle of joy is all about. This newbie, accustomed to dry-salting his beauforts and getting away without a drying off period, did the same thing with these high-Aw cheeses, and paid the price. From exchange with Pav, should have done a drying off at 50-55F, 70-80%RH; these went right into my cave at 53F, and their own aging containers at 95-96% RH. Duh. ::)
Anyway, Pav recommended wrapping and putting in the regular refrigerator, just as you recommend, Helen. I don't have any cheese paper, and was wondering if wax paper, parchment paper, or butcher block paper is a decent sub? Also, a dumb question - but do you continue turning the wheels, and unwrapping them occasionally to vent ammonia, and allow O2 for linens health (I should say, an attempt at managing further linens development?).
Paul,
For my first reblochon, I wrapped them in cheese paper and decided never to do that again. The cheese rind became very moist and stuck to the paper.
Now, I just place the mini-cave/tupperware in the vegetable tray in the fridge. I take the box out every other day (to vent) and turn them once to twice a week. I really got good results by doing that and after two weeks, I can place them back in the cave if I wish so. It depends on how many cheeses I have ready at this time... there is such a thing as too many cheeses ready at the same time.
I would not use wax paper unless you are sure it is breathable.
Letting my cheeses air-dry was the key to me getting slip skin under control. I recently learned that there is such thing as too much air-dry. The temperature was cool so I let my blue air dry on my kitchen counter (I know... this is bad. I won't do it again!) and there was an unexpected very warm day... now my blue is very dry, very hard. Live and learn, they say!
Thanks, Helen, really helpful. So it sounds like you kept the RH up by keeping in your container, but slowed further liquefaction by the cooler temp. Will give it a go. When I was brining (most of my cheeses now just happen to be dry-salted), I had a separate area of 70%RH, but warmer temp, 65F or so. It will be a challenge to do a drying regimen of 50-55F, 70-75%RH, as I've only the one cave. (And I've tapped my wife's longsuffering, in asking for more space for an additional cooler!... :o).
Helen - you might be surprised how much moisture is inside your blue. Vacuum bag it to trap the remaining moisture in and let it age some.
Thinking more on Reblochon AOC. And taking a foundling's stab at thinking on cheesemaking process, so posed this to Pav, and posting here, for all to see either some learning, or some delusion. ;D
Anyway, re-reading Reblochon AOC, again surprised by the curd size: same as Beaufort AOC. Perhaps I've been thinking of reblochon as softer than it really should be - closer to the tomme-pole of the tomme-reblochon-Mont D'Or continuum? Anyway, AOC:
Quote from: Reblochon AOC"...un tranche caillé l'ensemble en petits morceaux de la taille d'un grain de blé à celui d'un grain de maïs..."
Identical to the Beaufort AOC. They cut to the same size, wheat-to-corn grains; so how do they obtain a softer paste? My off the cuff thoughts:
Not fat, as Reblochon v. Beaufort of FFB 45% reb. v. 48% minimum for Beaufort; so it comes down to:
- a higher moisture via lower pre-rennet pH/submicelle hydration and less cooking in the reblochon - so that even with the same, small curd size, the lower temp, pH and cooking all lead to a moister curd in the reblochon; moister curd, softer paste, ceteris paribus;
-a different proteolytic dynamic entirely, due to the different rind developments, penetration, and paste action.
Learned ones, about right?
Heck, while I'm here, thinking on next autumn and winter, and Mont D'Or (you can pull the boy from the braising season, but not the braising season from the boy).
Re-reading Madeleine Kamman's
Savoie. (Love that grand old dame). Interesting, she indicates vacherin gets minimal cutting and no stirring. I asked Pav if this was his experience as well, and he gave his usual pellucid and helpful reply, re: desired moisture levels and consequent make planning. My thought in reply was - apprentice, here, trying to think for himself:
Quote from: AFMy presumption, is fat as hell, and wet; though a lot of the unctuousness comes from fat, and not entirely an extreme moisture - that said, still high MFFB: How's this sound? MFFB of 70%, FFB of 65%. Winter milk, perhaps even enriched with cream; 5x multiplier, even more acidic pre-rennet than your reblochon suggestion, 1/2" curd, no stirring.
Again, I'm posting this as a ditto to my reply to Pav; merely a thought exercise. If I'm wrong, please forgive, I will correct, and if I'm right, hopefully it's helpful - both in substance, and in seeing a noob trying to think through these processes and desired ends.
QuoteHelen - you might be surprised how much moisture is inside your blue. Vacuum bag it to trap the remaining moisture in and let it age some.
Thank you Sailor. I will do as you suggest!
Well, after spending a week in my regular refrigerator and told to behave (thank you, Helen and Pav), wrapped snuggly in their little papillotes of cheese paper, I am pleased to say...I think we're golden. Will give it a couple more weeks and re-evaluate whether to scarf, or place back in the "general population" on good behavior. ;D
Pics:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/PICT0001.jpg)
(this is one of the wheels that got regularly washed, with p. candidum being pushed back as a result).
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/PICT0002.jpg)
(Unwashed, after the first washing cycle, with p. candidum allowed to turn sauvage, no linens washing after the first cycle. Will be fun to compare both).
Just musing here. I know Yoav indicated rebs usually get no linens wash; and my rebs, for whatever reason, were getting a rind proteolysis in a big way, very quickly.
What do people feel the best way would be to slow down a smear effect, as a general principle? Wash less frequently? Stop the wash sooner, and smear, only, after some set developmental marker? Cooler, or lower RH?
Just stop washing. Let the geo and/or mycodor grow on it. You should always stop the wash before you get the color you want. The B.Linen continues to work and color becomes more intense. It's a bit like turning off the heat on your milk pot when it reaches 84F because you need it to be 86F and you know there is still enough energy in the pot, bottom and heat element to climb those needed 2F in the next few minutes before stopping. Know what I mean?
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on May 05, 2011, 05:28:27 PM
Just musing here. I know Yoav indicated rebs usually get no linens wash; and my rebs, for whatever reason, were getting a rind proteolysis in a big way, very quickly.
What do people feel the best way would be to slow down a smear effect, as a general principle? Wash less frequently? Stop the wash sooner, and smear, only, after some set developmental marker? Cooler, or lower RH?
Is there any status on these cheeses? I'd like to know how they came out or are coming along.
-Boofer-
Quote from: Boofer on July 14, 2011, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on May 05, 2011, 05:28:27 PM
Just musing here. I know Yoav indicated rebs usually get no linens wash; and my rebs, for whatever reason, were getting a rind proteolysis in a big way, very quickly.
What do people feel the best way would be to slow down a smear effect, as a general principle? Wash less frequently? Stop the wash sooner, and smear, only, after some set developmental marker? Cooler, or lower RH?
Is there any status on these cheeses? I'd like to know how they came out or are coming along.
-Boofer-
Hey Boof - sorry for the delay, have had some unfortunate medical setbacks which have dragged me down a bit, and no, no further makes in a awhile. I do plan on doing these rebs soon, and will definitely keep you posted. Thanks, friend. :)