I am from lovely Sdyney in Australia and am new to cheesemaking, and have a bunch of camemberts that i was ripening which developed the lovely bloom, but then developed blue spots, which i removed. I thought I had removed too much rind,but the bloom is starting to come back, with no blue spots. Here's the situation, they were made on the 19th March, and I have put them in the fridge after finding out the humidity was too high. Does anyone think they will still be good to eat or have they gone too far in the ripening process. Like I said the bloom is starting to grow back , and they are stilll hard, with no yucky smells, (they actually smell like camembert). Any advice would be much appreciated.
By the way this forum is awesome, we have nothing like it in Oz, everyone seems so helpful, especially for us novices. Hopefully with your guidance and advice we can all become excellent cheesemakers.
Thanks.
Hi, I'm a new cheesemaker in Armidale, NSW, and am just starting my second camembert, so my experience is very limited! But I would say let them mature for a while longer - my first batch was made on 25th Feb, matured for 2 weeks then in the fridge since. The one I ate this week is still not runny but tastes good. I've since bought a wine fridge (on special at Target, $149) but the first batch I matured in a foam box with cold bricks which I changed twice a day. Don't know what the temp. was but the bloom worked really nicely.
I've been to two one-day workshops with Lyndall from Emerald Beach - I believe she has someone who does cheese workshops in Sydney. Lyndall's were excellent for complete beginners.
Hi, good to see someone from oz too. Thanks for your reply. Ok, well that sounds like they might still work, cool. Yes, I went to the workshop with Susan, I think that's Lyndall's sister, here in Sydney. It was great, and I learnt alot. It's when you get home and have to do it yourself is when the fun starts. It's all practice, and I have already made fetta, marscarpone, yoghurt and cream cheese. I also had a go at the farmhouse cheddar from Ricki Carroll's book, I ate it too quickly though, it was nice, but needed more time to mature. I am going to get a wine fridge, I think that makes the experience a little easier. I am still trying to source a clean foam box till I get a fridge. Again, thanks for the reply, and good to see a fellow aussie.
Cheers.
Yes, those cams will be ok to eat. The usual ripening time is 6-8 weeks, so you still have time to go. Low refrigerator temp will lengthen the ageing time. How are you keeping them in the fridge? Are they wrapped, or in a plastic box? Camembert does need humidity, and refrigerators really dry the air out, which of course will dry your cheese out, so I'd highly recommend a plastic box.
Hi, that's great to hear :). Yes, I have them in a plastic box in the fridge.
Thanks for the reply.
Hi guys I am from Aus too. down in vic.. I have been reading your post. I have made my first batch of Camembert ever and its in an esky on a plastic rack it is covered in white mold but it has also grown a bit in size is this usual?..my recipe said to keep it the esky for a week then wrap and put in a fridge. Is this the right thing to do.. are you putting it straight into the fridge once the brine has dried.. help I have no idea what I'm doing.
thanks sue
Growing in size, hmm. Is it swelling? It sounds a little like it may have picked up some propionic shermanii, the same culture used to make eyes in Swiss cheese. Do you have any photos you can post? Camembert usually isn't brined, but surface salted. Was it a freshly made brine, or have you used it for some other cheese?
Sue, You are probably using the same recipe as I am, which does brine camembert for an hour. I have a batch going at the moment with the most amazing growth of mould - this recipe directs you to add 'a speck' of the mould spores to the brine - i forgot to do it until after I'd put the cheeses in, dashed to the freezer, got out the packet, and started to put in.... not a speck but 1/8 teaspoon. As I tipped it in I sensed something wrong, stopped and checked the recipe (bit late). So it got maybe 1/16 tsp, way too much. I think it will be ready to wrap and move to the refrigerator tomorrow after 4 days - my first attempt took 2 weeks for the mould to cover. Isn't this fun?
Margaret
Hi ladies thanks for getting back to me...swelling sounds scary..I used fresh brine as recipe stated made night before with boiling water then refrigerated until used next day.. looks awesome covered in fury white mold is that normal to be slightly fury... wow this is so scary.. but fun
This lady is a man. LOL, anyhow, furry is excellent, you can just keep patting it down when you flip it. How much bigger do you think your cheese has gotten? Can you describe the comparison?
Ok, so my camemberts seem to be growing back the white rind slowly, and are nearly covered again. I have noticed a few blue spots again, so do I need to remove them before I wrap my cheese?
Hi, to the others from Oz, this is the best cheesemaking forum I have been on.
Thanks
yeah, the blue can take over.
ok thanks, will wrap them soon, and see what happens. I have removed all the blue spots, there weren't many. I'm not sure whether I should ditch this batch and try a new one.
I had to ditch my camembert. I obviously screwed it up, but it smelled so bad in the cheese refrigerator, that it smelled up the house. I used half as much cultures as I was supposed to. I'll have to try it again.
I have checked mine for bad smells, but they actually smell like camembert.
Ok, so this morning I checked my camemberts which I have been keeping in a container in the normal fridge as I don't have a cheese cave yet :-\ , they had grown the white bloom back, and no new blue mould had resurfaced, and they smell like a nice camembert, so I wrapped them and have put them back in the fridge. I made these on the 19th of March, so was just wondering whether they are still ok to eat as I am dying to taste them. I will age them for a couple of weeks before tasting though.
BTW love the topics up for discussion. Very informative for us newbies, and love it when people add pics, hopefully will be adding my own pics soon.
thanks, they were in a plastic box, but are now wrapped, and lookin' good.
Quote from: Chaquan on April 30, 2011, 12:16:47 AMMaturation time is usually 6-8 weeks
What??? In 6-8 weeks they will be an ammonia factory. 21 days. 24 maximum!
jo1973 - If they are in plastic in the fridge and you leave a little gap for air so you get 85%-90% relative humidity going into the box, there is no need wrapping them. In fact you may just suffocate and ammoniate your rind before the paste is ripe. Instead, use the traditional french tab/rub method. It works better anyway.
ok, let me get this right, so i don't muck them up. I should upwrap them and put them back in my plastic box, and leave for how long? Do you think they sound like they are still ok to eat? At the moment they look and smell really good.
Just gently press them, when they feel soft enough EAT!
I prefer keeping them in their box instead of wraping just so that it doesnt get squashed by something\someone in the regular fridge during its "gental stage".
I checked them today, and two are softer than the others, and lookin' great. I have a separate cheese section in the door of my fridge, so they are in there.
How long is the "gentle" stage or does it depend on lots of things? I guess it's all just practice, ay?
But I am pleased to see that my first camemeberts may be a success, considering I thought I had wrecked them.
Wait, wait, wait. You don't just eat them because they are soft. If they are soft before they are about 3 weeks old it is likely that the outside had ripened too fast and the inside is not nearly ready. If they are getting soft prematurely, reduce humidity and move them to an even cooler storage. This way you prevent ammoniation while you still let the enzymes do their work deep inside the cheese.
Think of it as cooking in heat setting that is too high. You will burn your chicken (or whatever) on the outside before the inside gets cooked. If it looks like it is browning before time you don't eat the raw chicken... you reduce the flame and let it cook a bit longer in a temp that won't continue burning the outside.
The softening and over ripening may also have something to do with the wrapping. It often does that. Instead, the technique is to keep them in the aging container (together, where they can cross-transfer mold to each other; cheese love friends!). Once every day or two clean your hands and pick up a cheese, Tap it and lightly with two fingers to "pack it" rub it to help the bacteria transfer evenly on the rind and help create a lower height bloom of finer, more dense rind which is a very desirable quality. With your hands full of bacteria from that cheese, move on to the next and continue until all cheeses are done.
When this cheese has properly aged its softness should be the same as pressing the ball of your eye or the base of your thumb. Here's a good clip that has been shown on quite a few threads on this site, showing how to choose a Camembert and know it's ripe. It's very accurate:
How to Choose Camembert - CHOW (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FdBfgB1UV0#)
Does this turn and pat apply to Brie as well?
My first brie was on a cheese mat (one of those plastic grid things) in a box - it got a lovely mould on top and sides but the bottom was too moist. I flipped it, and now have a lovely growth on the (new) top but the bottom has got a bit soggy again and some green/blue mould has grown. So I've removed the green bits and now wrapped it in some baking parchment (aka greeseproof paper) since I wasn't sure what to wrap it in and clingfilm seemed it wouldn't let it breath at all.
What do you stand your white-mould cheeses on to get an even cover?
Matnewman, here's (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2594.msg40730.html#msg40730) a post about aging boxes that Sailor made a while back. I use a couple of pieces of the "eggcrate" with a cheese mat on top, to allow air circulation and to keep the cheese out of the whey.
Yoav, how do you get a camembert ripe all the way through in such a short time? Mine are never completely ready before 6 or even 8 weeks. I like the paste to be evenly ripe without a firm core.
Thanks,
Pam
matnewman - It seems like your surface is not proper for aging on it. The cheese needs to be set on an open mesh cheese mat, which needs to be set atop a surface that is elevated beyond the bottom of the aging container. In other words; free air flow to the bottom of the cheese, free flow of drained whey to the bottom of the container (or drying in the air) and having the cheese NEVER sit in its own whey or moisture. I do a very traditional French method: Instead of draining mat on a platform, I use mats of straw that I get from a local affineur. They wick out moisture and help the mold grow. They also give the cheese rich grassy aroma and a bit of color.
As for the pat and turn technique, the only thing I would watch out for in a brie is that fact that it is so flat and relatively thin so it may break when you flip it, but you can just tap it and rub it, turn and do the other side, then rub your fingers on the circumference of the cheese.
Pam - Typical Camembert should only take 3 weeks to get to age, however some Bries have neem known to be aged far longer. To adjust it for longer aging I would cut the curd smaller and age it in colder temperature. To make it shorter I dry the cheese for a couple of days first and age it at 55F for the first 10 to 14 days before moving it to the colder refrigeration. I do not wrap it. Selection of the right PC and Geo may help it too. Some are more agressive than others and they go well beyond rind formation; they are actually responsible to the lipolysis and proteolysis processes (breakdown and modification of proteins and fats) which is what makes the cheese ripe. What's your recipe? Let's see if we can do a 3 week version out of it. Can you post it here?
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2647.msg22283.html#msg22283Here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2647.msg22283.html#msg22283Here) is my recipe. Thanks for checking it out. I'm curious which Geo and PC you use.
(Your fans are waiting for pics!)
I am surprised, your recipe said 3-4 week aging on it so I don't see the problem. My recipe is quite close. I run the milk at 86F and for 2g I put slightly more than 1/8 tsp (I add another 1/16tsp) PC. I used to put equal amount of geo but now I put less (especially when it seems geo is very alive in my cave). I turn the cheese from day one (not waiting for a bloom to do that). I don't put a cover on it while draining (just some mesh to protect it from flies and dust).
The only MAJOR difference that I see is that I don't do the wrapping. Frankly, I don't know who came up with that idea. Wrapping is what you do when this cheese is ready to be sold and shipped to markets... It's not an aging environment. While in theory it is supposed to reduce the amount of air exchange and trap humidity and microorganisms close to the surface, in reality it makes the cheese ammoniate faster and ripen on the outside well before the inside is ready. It causes PC to recede and Geo to overgrow; it suffocates the cheese. The only way I see to age this for 6 weeks is to do it in very cold temperatures early on, or do a very dry cheese (small curd cutting, long drainage). What am I missing here?
I am working on getting some of those promised photos up!
QuoteFrankly, I don't know who came up with that idea.
Standard for commercial stabilized, UF, and partially stabilized cheese, because they're wrapped and shipped on day 10. In small scales, IMHO it's not necessary, just like you said.
In Camembert de Normandie (AOC) they don't wrap it for shipping until they are at least two weeks old.
Anyway, Pam I forgot to answer the PC/Geo question you had; I usually use Geo 15 or 17 and PC VS. In some occasion I use the more aggressive PC Neige. Gives me a nice wrinkly rind if I use it in combination with Geo 17 under the right initial drying/salting conditions.
So how do they keep it from becoming overipe?
near freezing temprature?
Thanks, Yoav.
The problem is that are never ripe enough in 3-4 weeks. They still have the firm center and I like them to be uniformly ripe all the way through. For that, it always takes me 6 weeks or longer.
I will try not wrapping them and see if that speeds it up. I want them to be ripe faster, it just doesn't happen for me.
No, no. We can make this happen. You may have an issue with the form factor.
Do you age it at 90%RH and 55F?
What size curd do you cut?
What's your cheese size? (diameter and height)
Do you dry salt them or brine them?
Are you using non-homogenized whole milk?
Are you adding calcium?
When do you move them to the lower temp fridge? (what day?)
Let's figure this out. Sometimes they need a 4th week to be "affine" but never 6 weeks in such recipe unless your curd is very small and you use cold temperature (in which case it will be a harder, drier fattier camembert)
Hi Yoav;
I use very fresh whole raw Jersey milk, no calcium chloride unless the girls are eating late winter hay.
I use the standard camembert molds, and get 4 cheeses from a 2 gallon batch. They average 12-13 oz each and are about 1.75" x 4.25". I cut the curds into 1/2" pieces and I dry salt.
At the beginning, I had the usual issues with slip skin, which I eliminated with help from this forum. My cams turn out beautiful and delicious, they just don't do it in 3 weeks. Here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2600.msg20581.html#msg20581) is a pic.
I age at 50-52F in a box in the converted fridge, and don't move them to the colder one until they are fully ripe.
I can quit wrapping them but I can't really change the temp too much.
Thanks for the help, Yoav.
Pam
I am in the same situation as Pam. I find my camemberts to be ripe (evenly liquid through the center) after 6 to 8 weeks.
I took a look at the AOC specifications and while they say that 3 weeks is the minimum affinage time for this cheese but it takes longer for a camembert to be fully ready.
That said, I would love to know what I can do to reduce my aging time. :)
- Helen
Quote
That said, I would love to know what I can do to reduce my aging time. :)
Decrease rennet pH to 6.4 and drain at 6.1, target a form factor of no more than 1.75", keep oxygen at 100% during the first week, and use a very proteolytic strain of PC.
Linuxboy, which PC and GC do you use?
arkc
Oh Pam I forgot you have this amazing milk!
You can raise the temp slightly to 55F and make sure its dry enough so it won't ammoniate. I just can't understand why it would take so long. Linuxboy made a good point about changing the rennet time. This made me think that a different starter culture can give you different rennet time. Your recipe calls for MA4001 which is not ideal for Camembert. Try using MM100 or even Fl-Dn. (I personally use MM100, sometimes I add a pinch of MD89 to give it extra butter and eyes)
Quotevery proteolytic strain of PC.
If you haven't done so, try using PC Neige. It's aggressive and has high proteolytic activity.
OK, thanks to you both for the suggestions. I'll see if I can speed up the process with those changes.
Hi there Cheesies... I'm from Perth WA. I'm having problems getting my camembert to grow the white mould. After the initial process of making it etc., I put it in a Decor container that has its own rack, place it in the fridge but nothing happens. Have realised maybe the fridge is too cold for it to happen, then tried moving it to a insulated bag with a cool brick etc., it's been nearly 2 weeks now. Still holding its shape, smells fine but still no mould. Going by other comments I should have had the white mould happening by now. What am I doing wrong? Cheers all
I'm wondering about the air circulation in those Decor containers, is it enough? The rack is only a few mm off the bottom of the container, should I raise it up on something to get better circulation? I'd be interested to hear if anyone else uses them as they seem to be recommended by various cheese ingredients suppliers here in Australia.
Any luck by now? Humidity control and temperature are real keys to getting it right. Having sero growth however could be a sign of other issues such as competing pathogen, antibiotics in the milk or wrong acidity, possibly even too much or too little salt.
Have you used any Geo in making this cheese? How did you salt it?
I just started home cheese making and I need your help. My first Camembert looked fine until I read this forum. Now I just unwrapped my first batch and it looked like the picture: yellowish brown on the surface and it felt almost liquid inside. The smell was "ok"-not too much ammoniac. Can you tell me if that cheese is good or not? What did I do wrong? The wrapping in special waxed paper? I aged it in a humid plastic container for 8 days and the mold was perfectly white. Should I just tap it and leave it in the box until it's ready to eat? I just unwrapped my Brie and it's still nice and white. I'm going to try and keep in unwrapped. But then should the humidity be kept at 90% after the mold is fully grown or I can just keep them cold in the plastic box?
I am a big fan of the no-wrap method. Wrap only after they are totally ripe and ready to be shipped or stored and even then - wrap with porous cellophane, not wax paper or that weird double layered nylon-paper thing. It needs to seriously breathe. Generally it sounds like you may have either not drained the cheese enough or the curd was too large, or you have aged it in overly humid boxes (90% to 95% RH is ideal, not 100%) or in too high a temperature. Wrapping the cheese is suffocating and may mimic the same effect of a closed box with 100% humidity but is does it even faster.
- Was your cheese liquidy all the way through the center? Or was your center still young and firm?
- What temperature did you age it at for those first 8 days?
- Can you post a photo?
I think everything was fine with the size of the curd... and it drained properly. I added the mold in the milk (instead of spraying at the end of the process).
The cheese was runny and liquid throughout - not even a hard center. The crust was firm and I was able to break it almost like a banana peel.
My "cave" is a wine fridge, with a temprature of 50F. I was aging it in a container with about 93-95% humidity
(//)
Hmmm... I wish I could see the inside of this. The cheese looks good externally. Direct vat inoculation is totally okay here and you don't have to spray. You might have had too much geo or too much initial moisture.
How long did you drain the cheese in the hoop and how long did you let it dry after removing the hoop? Did it dry in room temperature? When did you salt it? Most of these liquification and rind issues are related to initial drainage and drying or initial moisture in aging.
Can I just check if I've understood something correctly?
I've made some cams and they are starting to whiff a bit of ammonia, but the insides are only partially runny (so to my mind not yet fully done). Is the ammonia becuase I've not let them breathe enough (they were in a plastic box in the fridge)? If I let them air will they be ok to eat (tried a bit and if you ignore the smell of industrial cleaner it tasted ok!)?