Hi all - about to begin using new milk, and have been looking for a way to transport batch amounts in a cleanable and sanitizable vessel. Had no idea the old fashioned milk cans were so bloody expensive, so looking for alternatives. Corney kegs come to mind, but I'd prefer to avoid the dead zones around gas and spear outlet fittings, even if I remove the spear, etc. - would like to avoid caustic usage to clean. Just looking for something simple, plain, to do the job in 5 gallon increments, that doesn't run me a ton of money.
Any thoughts, off the cuff?
What about a 1/4 barrel keg? Remove the sankey connection and replace with a plug, and it's easy to clean and durable.
ebay is a good place for SS 304 milk cans. You could also use plastic. Either plastic carboys or poly milk cans.
Hey Pav, thanks.
I'm a bit leery of plastic, just afraid of scratches and nucleation sites, etc., but I might be being too precious. Easy enough to fill in several food-grade buckets that I have, with lids, or even 5 gallon water containers - just would rather use elbow grease than any chem cleaner, if possible. Do you have a source for the poly milk cans?
I've not been successful on e-bay, yet, anyway. Everything's either the "vintage" variety, unusable for milk, or near a couple hundred $ for the size I'm looking for.
Pony keg's not a bad idea - in fact, all my fermentors were converted 1/2bbl kegs - but again, I'd like to avoid the need for caustic, etc., to clean. I might be asking too much.
A little pricey, and not quite the size you're looking for, but these 12-qt SS totes have been serving us well for about 18 months now (we trade off two empties for two full ones a couple times a week).
http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3331&cat=80&page=1 (http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3331&cat=80&page=1)
I use my blue plastic fermentors which have a lid and a clamp,
Before doing a pick up I sanitize it with boiling water ,swirl it around and close the lid (without the clamp obviously, It can build up pressure and explode) and let it cool.
Thanks, George. Yeah, more than I was looking to pay - I'd need 2, so I'd be at $150, hard to swallow, for me. Interesting that they're on back order - I've seen them on backorder from other sites, too. Wonder if it's a demand thing, or a supply thing.
Tomer, I do have the same fermentors, and may just go with that for a temporary solution. As I mentioned, I'm a bit leery of plastic over the long haul, just because it can get scratched, making it difficult to clean and sanitize.
I may be asking for the moon, I realize - stainless that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
Paul,
What about Better Bottles carboys? They are quite light and food grade. I am always leery of glass. I heard of so many accidents with heavy glass containers.
- Helen
Helen, thanks. The thing I'm trying to avoid is the carboy shape - meaning, to keep it clean after repeated use, I'd really only feel comfortable after using some sort of caustic cleaning agent, then sanitizer. With the milk-can style, wide mouth, I can get in there with elbow grease, then sanitize. I may have to just deal with it, though, and our local coop has these carboys in stock. Thanks again.
I don't know, you still have to use a dairy rinse even with elbow grease. There's no way to really permanently avoid it that I can think of. I like my detergent/acid routine, it's really reliable.
I was also leery of plastic. I used glass jars for quite a while. (Also using raw milk btw) But I did some research and couldn't really find anything concrete to tell me I really needed to use glass or stainless. So I swiched to plastic and life is soooo much easier. The schools get mayonnaise and salad dressing in 1 gallon jugs with good lids (some have snap-on lids. Skip those). They have been saving them for me. That is working out great. I think FAR more important than glass/stainless vs plastic is how quickly the milk is chilled. I put it on ice immediately and get it below 35 within an hour of milking. Works great! Hopefully the experts will chime in and let us know if there is a study to discredit food grade plastic. I sure couldn't find it.
Susan
Thanks Pav. I guess I'm living in the alpage of my mind. You mean, a cleansing rinser, yes, milkstone, etc.? My brewer's paranoia regarding milk comes to the fore - no issue with a pony keg, carboy, etc., /no manual cleaning?
Susan, thanks. I had first thought the easiest thing for me would be what Tomer suggested, just using one of my 5 gallon buckets, with a tight-sealing lid, but your smaller container idea and cooling is well-taken; one issue I was thinking of re: the large bucket. I had thought of SS, and putting it in the back of our Caravan, sunk in ice, but I'd have to come home and begin the make ASAP, as I've no way to place that large a container in a cooler, and if I transfer to smaller containers, well, another transfer point and point for possible contamination. Anyway, thanks again, nice food for thought.
If anyone would be interested in looking, I posted some links below that are from a website that has several articles and links regarding the issues surrounding using plastics. I only listed a few, but there are several other articles at this site and links out to research on the subject as well.
I personally use glass (or ceramic) for almost everything including cooking when possible. I tote & store my (raw) milk in 1/2 gallon mason jars that I can carry in one of the large plastic or wood crates that are readily available almost everywhere. (I used to use the large glass gallon "pickle-type" jars but they are too bulky and not as easy to handle as the 1/2 gal jars.)
And... as far as the estrogens are concerned, I DEFINITELY don't need any more of those!!! ::)
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/08/07/scientists-warn-of-the-dangers-of-a-chemical-found-in-plastic.aspx (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/08/07/scientists-warn-of-the-dangers-of-a-chemical-found-in-plastic.aspx)
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2003/04/16/food-storage-part-one.aspx (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2003/04/16/food-storage-part-one.aspx)
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/07/05/food-storage-part-two.aspx (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/07/05/food-storage-part-two.aspx)
I forgot to add that the 1/2 gal size is also easy to quick-cool in ice (if needed) and they can fit in a normal fridge much easier than anything else I've tried. No need to "repackage" when you get home, easy to clean with wide-mouth. and non-porous.
I carry about 10 gallons of raw milk this way on every trip I make to the farm.
I have had no good experience from using plastic, even food grade, for holding fresh milk. We have used HDPE milk cans and they can be really hard to get clean, especially after using to hold whey.
While glass is great, Stainless is the only reliable product for long term usage. I went cheap innumerable times and spent 5X the cost of stainless before breaking down.
11 gal stainless for $199 from E Bay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stainless-Steel-Milk-cream-Transport-Can-11-gallon-/330545221616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf607cff0#ht_1457wt_932 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Stainless-Steel-Milk-cream-Transport-Can-11-gallon-/330545221616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf607cff0#ht_1457wt_932)
Or 12 Qt for $29.99
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stainless-Steel-12-Qt-Milk-Can-Hygeia-60-Sealed-/250807049127?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6543dba7#ht_500wt_715 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Stainless-Steel-12-Qt-Milk-Can-Hygeia-60-Sealed-/250807049127?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6543dba7#ht_500wt_715)
Thanks, Joe. It looks like I'm out of luck on the 12 qt - it's got a sealed lid, so it is apparently basically unusable as is. I queried Hamby on their smaller sizes, will see. Leah's mom, thank you, as well. My only concern with glass is that I've a history, over the years, with busting up carboys, etc., from transporting wort back and forth from home and brewery - so I finally just went to converted ss kegs; and so do feel, for myself, that ss is likely the way to go.
Corneys do work pretty well if you can compromise on having to sanitize them. Cheap, can reach in to clean manually, can soak the top piece in a bucket of cleanser/sanitizer if worried about dead zones, etc. You could probably get 4-5 corneys delivered for $120 or so. DeejayDebi uses corneys for her milk, works fine for her.
Our local shop, about a block away, has 5 gal corneys for $45. Remove the spear, and it's a good solution. I always used caustic for cleaning and iodophor for sanitizing, Pav. Not familiar with acid cleansers - what do you use?
Phosphoric, sulfuric, glycolic... whatever is local. Or you can get the no rinse, like starsan.
iodophor is good, too. I tend to like leaving the surface lightly acidic to help prevent airborne contamination
Pav, I'm talking chemical cleaners, not the sanitizers (I've got StarSan and use that for sanitizing) - I always used hot NaOH for cleaning, and anything from peracetic acid to iodophor to chlorine dioxide, in terms of sanitizing. Don't you use some sort of acid cleaner?
For cleaning? No, I use an alkali dairy detergent, sometimes one with enzymes if it looks like I need to do thorough job. Sometimes I'll use soda beads. I thought you meant sanitizing, sorry. Paracetic would work well, too. mmm love that fresh smell of acid in the morning. :P
OK, gotcha. Yeah, I always just used hot caustic.
QuoteParacetic would work well, too. mmm love that fresh smell of acid in the morning.
OH yeah. Especially a dreary, early morning in the brewery, when you're half awake, and you start up the peracetic mixing/holding tank without paying attention to which valves are open and shut...the face loves that "fresh feel." (Yes. Happened. I love how it wakes you up in the morning....;D).
hey, some people pay good money for a fancy 'acid peel' like that O0
Pav, thinking of a couple alternatives, in terms of pre-ripening.
The issue of 1 large vessel has its downside, which is keeping it cool until ready to make.
On the other hand, per one of your pre-ripening suggestions, any issue with just dropping in some DVI meso culture (say, Aroma B) into the corney, milk can, whatever's used, and putting the whole thing into a cooler overnight, for a make the next day?
I may have spaced this - sorry, if so - would you even both with a pre-ripening, if using raw milk? If doing an alpine, would you even use a meso of any kind, or just add in thermos?
Quote from: Brandnetel on April 20, 2011, 09:34:39 PM
hey, some people pay good money for a fancy 'acid peel' like that O0
Lol. I got a cool "tear drop" cascade by my eye, all the way down. Helped me to fit right in with the miscreants working there. ;D
QuoteIf doing an alpine, would you even use a meso of any kind, or just add in thermos?
If I would, I would pasteurize the milk after. So basically, no. With one exception: if using a flavor enhancer like hansen's cr 213, but then you wouldn't preripen because that's not an acidity adjunct, develops acid slowly, would just dump some in the milk and go.
Sorry, to clarify: with raw milk, you would pre-ripen with, say, DVI Aroma B, get a .2-.4 drop, then pasteurize; so you're feeding the thermos; you'd then cool the milk, and do your make, with thermos only. Or, in the alternative, using Hansen's CR 213 (will have to look that up), thermos, and go.
Either way, outside of the minimal acidification by a meso addition prior to pasteurization, you're using thermos exclusively as true acidifiers, in a raw milk, alpine make. Yes?
Preferences (and reasoning) for simply going with raw milk-thermo, no pre-ripening/pasteurization v. the pasteurization routine, above?
Quote from: Leah's Mom on April 20, 2011, 03:43:19 PM
If anyone would be interested in looking, I posted some links below that are from a website that has several articles and links regarding the issues surrounding using plastics. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/08/07/scientists-warn-of-the-dangers-of-a-chemical-found-in-plastic.aspx (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/08/07/scientists-warn-of-the-dangers-of-a-chemical-found-in-plastic.aspx)
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2003/04/16/food-storage-part-one.aspx (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2003/04/16/food-storage-part-one.aspx)
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/07/05/food-storage-part-two.aspx (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/07/05/food-storage-part-two.aspx)
Just for the record. The guy who runs this website, Dr Mercola, criticizes most mainstream medicine including the use of vaccines. This does not reflect the standard of care or general opinion of the medical community. He has received 2 warning letters from the FDA for his marketing practices. Not that I''m arguing that BPA is perfectly safe. I just don't believe all this guy has to say.
My plastic bottles aref HDPE #2 which has not been shown to leach BPA or phthalates.
Susan
Quoteraw milk, you would pre-ripen with, say, DVI Aroma B, get a .2-.4 drop, then pasteurize; so you're feeding the thermos; you'd then cool the milk, and do your make, with thermos only. Or, in the alternative, using Hansen's CR 213 (will have to look that up), thermos, and go.
Me personally? I don't pasteurize raw milk, and wouldn't add meso. Would use it as it. I was only illustrating, not proscriptive.
Quote
Either way, outside of the minimal acidification by a meso addition prior to pasteurization, you're using thermos exclusively as true acidifiers, in a raw milk, alpine make. Yes?
Yep.
Quote
Preferences ...the pasteurization routine, above?
To create different flavor profiles out of ennui. Normally, for raw, I only do thermo.
Parfait. Merci, mon ami de l'occident.
Susan...
I kind-of hesitated when I posted the "Mercola" links knowing that I, and others, have issue with some of the things he puts out. That being said, there is research on the affects of plastics from many sources and studies available. When I posted those links I was at work so I didn't want to take the time to find and post them. I was hoping that the Mercola links would be food for thought and that if anyone was interested they could take the time to do a little research on their own and draw their own conclusions.
For me, the issue isn't so much the BPA but the "porosity" of whatever material I'm using. It's hard to have a well-cleaned container when the surface allows absorbtion at some level, so I try to use items that discourage that - such as glass and stainless steel.
Hope that clarifies some :)
Thanks Leah's Mom. I know where your are coming from. I used glass for a long time for the same reasons. But it just got too cumbersone. So I thought I'd try the plastic and have been glad I did. I don't sell cheese (or milk) so it it just for family and friends. I guess I'd have to worry more if I did. But even in the plastic jug the milk does not 'go bad' for several weeks if I've chilled it right away. I don't keep it that long. But have tried it just to see. The question I've had is can I really get them clean? I always sanitize them. Doesn't seem to be an issue. I've often thought it would be fun to take milk samples to the local hospital lab and ask them to tell me what is growing in there. If I ever get around to it, I'll ask them to do one from a glass and one from a plastic jug. And maybe one fresh and on 4-5d old. Would be interesting. Would love to even know just the natural flora in there.
Susan
I did an experiment with an HDPE milk can and a SS one using my pH meter. Fresh Milk was 6.78 in both. In 2 hours SS was 6.62 and in HDPE was 6.45. Both had been sanitized thoroughly. While we have lots of volume and HDPE is great stuff for many things, the HDPE cans are now used to transport whey to the pigs.
Interesting. If plastic is inert, how do you suppose the pH will change? Maybe the experts will chime in. My pH meter just came today! When I figure out how to use it I am going to do a similar experiment. Will let you know how it comes out.
Susan
For sure it isn't the plastic that changes the pH, it is the fact that I didn't get the plastic clean even though it was well sanitized.
I know everyone's dying to know.....did Arnaud slink to stainless? Did he hack a hunk of HDPE? Grab some glass, with gusto?
Sorry, in so many ways. Just wanna say, I'm the proud owner of a gleaming 5.5 gal. SS Delaval milker, and find myself just wandering the streets aimlessly, looking for a cow that would trust me, my warm hands and my worshipful heart. ;D
Congrats, you will be pleased to know your Milk Can will never be the cause of unwanted bad guys in your milk!
Got it used at a good price. The weird thing is, it cost me nearly as much to get a ss lid for it. I wasn't aware these lids are that rare? Next up is another one, and a cooler to store them, and a vat that can handle 12-15 gallons, and molds. And...and..well, I want to do this as a way of life. Your story is really inspiring in this way, Joe. Best wishes for every success.
Paul
Aw, Paul, you really do need a cow! And a milk machine to go with that gleaming ss can!
Funny thing is, about 6 months ago, I sold the ss can I had - it held about 7 gallons and I couldn't imagine being able to carry it even half full because it was so heavy empty. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was given a Delaval milking system. The can probably only holds about 4 gallons, so much more my speed.
It is at the repair shop now and we will see if the pump is operational. If not, I do have a source for a pump for about $500 plus shipping, so I'll be saving up my pennies.
Quote from: MrsKK on May 01, 2011, 02:22:33 PM
Aw, Paul, you really do need a cow! And a milk machine to go with that gleaming ss can!
Funny thing is, about 6 months ago, I sold the ss can I had - it held about 7 gallons and I couldn't imagine being able to carry it even half full because it was so heavy empty. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was given a Delaval milking system. The can probably only holds about 4 gallons, so much more my speed.
It is at the repair shop now and we will see if the pump is operational. If not, I do have a source for a pump for about $500 plus shipping, so I'll be saving up my pennies.
Oh, man, Karen, you don't know how right you are. My usual devious way*** of getting seriously into the game seems to be paying off - got the jug itself, and now I'm seeing retrofit components on E-Bay, for the next part of the campaign to turn Green Acres on my wife and child. ;D
***You think I'm kidding. Muwahahahah.....way back when, my wife bought me a beer kit one Christmas. Before she knew it, I was studying through Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh's Diploma Program in Malting and Brewing; was performing industrial espionage by capturing yeasts from points abroad, drying them in hotel rooms on folded business cards, and banking them at home for later use in traditional ales; was slaving for pennies working for Goose Island Brewing Company, Chicago. NEVER, I mean never, allow me into a hobby of the senses. I lose all sense. >:D ;D
The way the economy is going, Green Acres is just the place to be!
Hahahah....laughing....weeping wistfully....grabbing a pitchfork..... ;D