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Hello All. 

Well, now that my poor, toady-skinned little reblochons are now cooling their jets, literally, in my regular refrigerator, I have decided to return to my first love, Beaufort, in an effort to really plumb the depths of this cheese. 

The design below is just my gleanings from my conversations with Linuxboy, Francois, Iratherfly, and SailorConQueso; with a heartfelt thanks to them all.  I have combined those thoughts with my reading of the French AOC materials for Beaufort, to come up with the following design.  Any and all input is much appreciated. 

My overarching goal here, absent living in the Savoie (for now, and now only), practicing as they practice there and using des flores comme ils existent en nature, là, is to use manufactured cultures to learn something about processes and dynamics, in a fairly methodical way.

So, Design.  For each Beaufort make,

•   All will be 5 gallons milk (presume a constant, in intrinsic meso cultures);
•   All will get a 1.0% thermo primer culture of ideal pH 4.0, composed of 50% ST, 50% LH100;
•   All will get 1/24 tsp. propionic/5 gallons milk;
•   All will be renneted at ideal 6.65; 
o   Ideal milk incoming pH of 6.7, thus, an 0.05 pH drop for renneting.  Higher or lower milk pH will adjust pH drop to hit at 6.65 (if milk comes in below 6.7, will still do at least 0.05 pH drop).  If higher than 6.7, will increase delta pH to hit 6.65 and decrease renneting dosage, all to make sure of at least delta (-) 0.05 pH
o   All to achieve a very slow floc of 25 min. floc;
•   All will get 2.5 multiplier;
•   All will be shooting for hoop pH of ideally 6.45;
•   All will get target end-of-press and cooling period pH of 5.3-5.4

Trials:
1.   PLA
2.   Above, + MVA
3.   Above, + MVA + R2R
4.   (1-3), + FR22
5.   (1-3), + FR13
6.   (1-3), + FR13 (50%)+FR22 (50%)


Each wheel will receive a dry salting regimen at the end of pressing and cooling of 2x24hr application of flaked salt, sides and edge salted once daily and turned at 12 hour intervals.

Each wheel maintained at identical temp and RH of 52-55F, 95-98% RH.

Each wheel tried monthly with an apple corer trier beginning at 4 months and ending at 12 months.

Thats an impressive feat!

Well, thanks, Tomer.  But not yet - lots of work ahead! 

(BTW - edit made to the above trials was to simplify the approach somewhat - using PLA as a base blend, and going from there, so only 6 wheels).

Paul,

May I ask what you are trying to achieve by a long flocculation time?

Thanks
- Helen

Helen, this understanding was given by Pav - and any errors in that recollection are mine, so hopefully Pav will chime in, if so. 

Basically, for a quality curd, you can't beat slow and steady.  You're looking for a good distribution of enzymatic cleaving (rennin cleaves the k-casein micelle at the F105-M106 bond, releasing the glycopeptide sequence into the whey; leaving a para-casein fraction that aids in coagulum bonding), and non-enzymatic bonding (when the micelles begin to adhere and fix, into a curd).  Basically, all other things being equal, doing this slowly promotes an even formation of the gel matrix - it's not "clunky" as the biochemical processes of rennet-induced coagulation proceed in an orderly, even, and relatively complete way.

Hope that's about right, for a short answer.  (Pav, apologies if wrong - if reading, would love your correction). 

For me, I'm looking for a fairly dry, but elastic curd, so seek the preservation of colloidal calcium during the make - don't want to lose it all (I'm exaggerating, as it's not ever "all" lost to the whey), in order to set up the proper textural qualities I'm looking for in my Beauforts. 

Now - please forgive the following segue.  I hope it's helpful, in the way of providing a bit of a philosophy towards all this, speaking only personally. 

Firstly, I'm by nature a traditionalist, tending to orthodoxy when it comes to food (French technique and culinary philosophy, wine, etc. - I've been a part of all them).  I tend to seek a mastery of fundamental technique, and tend to eschew emphasizing my own creativity, to whatever extent I possess it (or not).  So, in a word, both from having lived with a Japanese martial and zen master, as well as having been trained and experienced in traditional French cooking since childhood, that's the prism by which I tend to operate.

I only give this brief bio, so you know my bent.  In terms of these makes, firstly, it's what I see when reading the French materials, so it starts there. I think the good of this approach is that I tend to be extremely rigorous in my desire to achieve simplicity, and a kind of purity of expression; again, from my former life as a chef, an autumn game dish that while simple, lacking "wizardry," captures the very heart - the literal emotional seat - of the season, and of the animal that sits at the center of the presentation.

Then I get curious as to why.  Much like a step-mash in making a traditional, decocted (partially boiled, much like the purpose of using a hot wash water to raise the  temp of washed-curd cheese), German dark lager; I'll see a temp step described somewhere, and want to understand the reasoning.  Say, a temp-rest at around 45C - why?  (a "beta-glucans" rest - when using grains or malts high in beta-glucans, a kind of "ficelles tout embrouillés" situation, which requires a longish-rest at this temp to disentangle the "fringed micelles" and ensures you don't end up with a gummy mess).

So, by virture of Pav's generosity, as I say above, I'm seeking to capture in my Beauforts what I can of their traditional makes and sensory qualities; and that involves encouraging a good retention of colloidal calcium, and down the stream. a quality, good, firm but elastic paste.   

Hmmmm... How do you know the flocculation time you will achieve? It has a lot to do with the condition of milk and environment. 25 minutes is quite long. you can delay it with less starter and lower temperatures but it will decrease the effectiveness of your starter cultures. 

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on April 26, 2011, 06:40:46 PM
•   All will get a 1.0% thermo primer culture of ideal pH 4.0, composed of 50% ST, 50% LH100;

Why did you choose that? what's the temp you will be working with?
For 5 gal. batch I would do 3/4 tsp starter. Use a farmstead culture like the MA4001. It already contains the same Lactis that is in LH100 (and other goodies such ad Cremoris and Diacetyls) but it also contains the same thermophilics that are in TA50.  You can enhance the thermophilic aspect by adding an extra pinch of TA50.  Alternatively, you can use Kazu starter. It's like the MA4001 but instead of TA50 as thermophilic it has helveticus which may fit the alpine flavor profile better. (Francois? Linuxboy? What do you think?)

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on April 26, 2011, 06:40:46 PM
•   All will get 1/24 tsp. propionic/5 gallons milk;

I would use at least 1/2 teaspoon is not 3/4. You do need relatively more in small batches.

QuoteUse a farmstead culture like the MA4001

This will not make a Beaufort.

QuoteIt already contains the same Lactis that is in LH100

No it doesn't. It has lactococcus not delbruecki.

Quotethermophilic aspect by adding an extra pinch of TA50

This does little for flavor or paste formation in the final cheese.

Quotehelveticus which may fit the alpine flavor profile better.

Kazu is intended for specialty dutch type cheese. Helveticus here on Kazu is for paste formation and some added flavor because the milk is pasteurized for that cheese type.

a 50/50 TA/LH is a decent starting point for Beaufort. In terms of flavor formation, it'll be alright. Not superb because the strains are wrong, but very good in terms of understanding and learning the make.

Thanks, Pav.  Yoav, I was typing a reply, but Pav's is pretty much the long and short of it.  Which would make sense, as everything I've learned has come from discussions with him, as well as Francois, with a big thanks to Sailor as well for his work. 

I've worked pretty hard to understand the dynamics, species and expectations of this breed. Not at all "arguing by reference to authority," most obviously because I make no claim to even getting it right, that which they've been so generous in sharing their time with me about; but I think if you'll comb the Beaufort threads, to include my two chronicles as well, it might help better see the many points guiding my aims, in working on this cheese. 

As Pav concludes - well, basically, my family and I need to move to the Savoie, most likely, as what I'm after is pretty intensely tied to the flora, geography and traditions indigenous to that part of the world. 

Until then, or in lieu of that, I have to work to understand the underlying principles behind this style - its traditions, ingredients and methods - and do my best to parse it with what's available to me here, in the States.  I'm pretty confident that by sticking to that approach I will - as my late Sensei (his name was Tenzan Fumio Toyoda) once said to me, "master this, and you can master anything."   :)

Sorry you guys, I did not mean to disrespect anyone's time or good advice. I was merely trying to bring out these points because that would have been my approach but this was more of a "worth looking into this" inquiry rather than any sort of concrete opinion., hence the

Quote(Francois? Linuxboy? What do you think?)

I am glad my other opinions about dose size weren't trashed :)  My question about coagulation time and temperature of make still stand.

Paul - I am not an expert on making Beaufort; I have never made any but I did my share of tasting this great cheese.

Pav - I suggested the MA4001 simply because It contains Streptococcus thermophilus which are the main component of the TA50 culture, as well as Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis which is the mesophilic component of the LH100 (and it has 2 other mesos; Cremoris, Diacetylactis).  I suggested Kazu because it contains both the mesophilic and the thermophilic of LH100.  HOWEVER...

Quote from: linuxboy on April 29, 2011, 08:22:34 PMNo it doesn't. It has lactococcus not delbruecki.

Grrr... sorry, my bad! I must have looked at the wrong box in my too-long chart. Don't have it in front of me now but thanks for correcting me.

I asked for the recipe's temperatures because I don't actually know the recipe - is this a thermo recipe? If so than these are indeed useless.

Quote from: linuxboy on April 29, 2011, 08:22:34 PMThis does little for flavor or paste formation in the final cheese.

Adding the pinch of TA50 to MA4001 meant to double up on the Streptococcus thermophilus that is already in the MA4001, so together they would give enough thermophilic activity.  Why wouldn't this work?  I noticed Peter Dixon does that a lot.

Has anyone here actually made Beaufort before? Anything close to it?

Oh, Yoav, my skin's certainly not ruffled.  In terms of approaches, I'll need to emphasize again that I'm a traditionalist; I seek to capture the intrinsic character of the cheese, and the best way I know to do that is to stick to a few things, isolate out the variables, and then work at them until I feel I've exhausted them. 

QuoteI asked for temperatures because I don't actually know the recipe - is this a thermo recipe?

Yes.  As with all of these - Gruyère, Comté, Beaufort - they're all cooked, pressed cheeses, using thermophilic SLABs, as well as other autochthonous cultures. 

QuoteI guess that's like using thermo C with some thermo (Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis)

As I mentioned, a lot of this was covered in some other threads.  Here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,3556.msg45316.html#msg45316), for instance:

Quote from: ArnaudForestierIt seems the MA001 is discontinued; the only difference, as I can see it, between the MM100 and MA19 is the diacetylis in the former (however, not sure of the ratio differences).  Thermo C contains both S. thermophilus, and L. helveticus.  It lacks LH100's L. lactis.

Can someone discuss substitutions, here?  Would one expect more "buttery" notes than desired in a Beaufort, if using MM100, and what the lack of L. lactis would mean, if using Thermo C instead of LH?  Basically, among 4001, Thermo C, and MM100, curious on what using some combination of these would mean. 

-it continues from there.  Worth reading.

QuoteHas anyone here actually made Beaufort before?

I've made 3 so far.

QuoteAnything close to it?

We'll see. ;)

Edit:  Just saw these, sorry:

Quote from: YoavI am glad my other opinions about dose size weren't trashed :) 

I don't see anyone trashing anything, Yoav.  As a general statement, I know our approaches are very different, but that's great - that's what makes this world so interesting.

I can only speak personally, but I just know I've spent a heck of a lot of time over the last sveral months (most of the entirety of my time in cheese making, period actually), investigating this style; that would include voluminous exchanges with Pav, and with Francois; reading up on the scientific texts; journals; videos and cultural discussions of Savoie making. 

Not bloviating, just trying to say that I don't see it as trashing, but perhaps just a disagreement as to approaches, etc. 

I will say I feel your propionic notion:

       

Quote from: iratherfly

Quote from: Arnaud ForestierAll will get 1/24 tsp. propionic/5 gallons milk;

I would use at least 1/2 teaspoon is not 3/4. You do need relatively more in small batches.

Is likely considerably off, particularly for Beaufort.  Remember, of the alpine breeds, Beaufort is the lowest in prop. acid, strikingly so (I posted before, from the French); again, there has been some ground covered here already:

Quote from: ArnaudGeneral comments, from my reading of the Beaufort documentation.

Compositional comparison, comparing Beaufort to (French) Emmental Grand Cru and Comté:

    * Salt, g/kg: EGC: 3-6; Comté: 4-10; Beaufort: 8-13.  Among these 3, Beaufort is most heavily salted.  Makes sense to me, both in terms of its relative propionic inhibition (see below), and flavor, among other things.

    * Propionic Acid, g/kg: EGC: 2.5-5; Comté: 1-4; Beaufort: 0.05-0.2.  I find this striking, and helpful in terms of trying to achieve the profile.

    * Calcium level, g/kg: EGC: 9-10; Comté: 9-11; Beaufort: 8-10.  Lowest of the three, though not dramatically so.  Gives me a "hmm" in terms of thinking on whey drain pH, etc.

It has anywhere from no to very little eye formation, as well.  My feeling is that your increasing my current prop. shermanii dosage by from 12X to 18X would throw this cheese pretty wildly out of balance.  What's your reasoning?

QuoteMy question about coagulation time and temperature of make still stand.

Why?  I don't see how you can do a mesophilic make and still call it Beaufort, or indeed any alpine breed in the Gruyere family.

Sorry, I re-edited my answer to make it more lucid. Yours is more clear to me now too.

The MM100 and MA4001 are close to each other. They both contains 3 mesophilics: Lactococcus lactis subspecies lactis, Lactococcus lactis subspecies cremoris and Lactococcus lactis subspecies biovar diacetylactis.  The MA4001 however also contains a thermophilic; Streptococcus thermophilus which is what's in TA50 if I am not mistaken.

QuoteSorry, I re-edited my answer to make it more lucid. Yours is more clear to me now too.

Not sure what you're referring to that was unclear to you, Yoav, but glad whatever it was has helped make things more clear, now. :)

QuoteThe MM100 and MA4001 are close to each other. They both contains 3 mesophilics: Lactococcus lactis subspecies lactis, Lactococcus lactis subspecies cremoris and Lactococcus lactis subspecies biovar diacetylactis.  The MA4001 however also contains a thermophilic; Streptococcus thermophilus which is what's in TA50 if I am not mistaken.

I personally don't think it's enough to say two manufactured cultures contain the same species and ssp; says nothing about ratios, for instance, so you don't know how much of a certain culture you're adding, relative to others, at least without knowing and/or saying more.  It also doesn't really speak to strains, which can differ. 

Guess I'm not sure where you're going with this?  Basically, trying to say MA4001 is fine, after all, in making Beaufort?

Sorry, also just saw this (I missed it, when seeing "MA4001" the first time - saw species, and not your amounts).

Quote from: iratherfly5 gal. batch I would do 3/4 tsp starter.

I no longer use DVI as my main acidifying culture; for many reasons, I've adopted Sailor's/Pav's/Francois's approach to primer culture (thanks, guys). 

That said, I think this is illustrative, as to approaches:  you mention 3/4 tsp of your SLAB, when Sailor's original recipe had a combined SLAB (ignoring ratios of species, or of meso/thermo in your two different approaches) of (1/8 + 1/16 + 1/12 = 13/48), slightly under 1/3 tsp. starter, so you're coming in with a starter dosing of 2.25X that of the original recipe. That seems huge, to me, so I'm curious on you're reasoning.

I know that for my purposes, as I mention, "slow and steady wins the race," so I've even pulled it back from parsing the original recipe dosing; so far, from 1% primer bulk equivalent to 0.78%.  I do this, for reasons stated above.  Not "right," just different, and I hope my explanation of why I'm doing this is at least helpful as to my approach.


***

I need to clarify the purpose of the thread, actually - since its original posting, I've amended my intended trials to include seasonality:

Seasonality:
Effect of seasonal changes in milk composition on sensory quality of Beaufort; relationship of milk composition to flora changes in milk.
1.   (1-6 above, from Series 1) made in the early Spring
2.   (1-6 above, from Series 1) made in the mid Spring
3.   (1-6 above, from Series 1) made in the early Summer
4.   (1-6 above, from Series 1) made in mid Summer
5.   (1-6 above, from Series 1) made in late Summer
6.   (1-6 above, from Series 1) made in the early Autumn

I also need to say, it's probably obvious that there are a billion variables one could isolate to try, in perfecting this cheese; as Beaufort is a long-aged cheese, and I'm approaching 50 (OK, I'm 50 - suck it up, man, it's in a month), well, you know.  So, I'm feeling pretty comfortable at this point, with the techniques of this style - though I know I'm a million years away from nailing any of them (the guy who founded Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba Sensei, would call them closer to "20 year" techniques, the seemingly simple class called "kokyu," "breath" or "timing" throws....simple, but takes 20 years to know how to do them, really).  Hence, my desire for now is to play with some species, and of those species, with seasonality in the milk itself, keeping make techniques constant.  One possible thing will be to tap other species, commonly available in Europe, not so common here; in process.

***

One flaw in the design that occurs to me, is that it's actually impossible to isolate out any one "variable" in cheesemaking, at least not without a pretty extraordinary effort - it is a complex, dynamic variable "system," and any change - say, in linens ssp - will necessarily lead to a change in other variables, including supposed "fixed" independent variables; confounding variables.  So in terms of design, one may easily get lost. 

***

After rambling through this, I might just toss this all completely out, keep species constant, and manipulate technique variables, and see what I get.  Something on the order of keeping a 50/50 ST/LH100 mix, and p. shermanii in the vat; PLA, with some xylosus (MVA) in the morge.  Playing with things:

-in the make; e.g., to try different moisture and curd elasticity targets;

-in the affinage, different washing regimens, or different environmental considerations, different RH and temp ranges.


Hmm...been up since 2 am, my time, it's now 5 (edit:  it's now 6), so not sure any of this is making sense, at this point - I wrote the above couple of paragraphs, and I think I'm a confounding variable, at this point.  Will return later. 

In the event something of the above does have some cogency, any and all thoughts, as always, appreciated.

Just curious about the practical effects of such a long floc time. I understood that the usual target is somewhere in the 12-16min range, which, when achieved, reflects the "correct" amount of rennet for the milk's characteristics, and then the curd cutting target time is calculated from there, based on the cheese type.
Paul, you say it's to achieve "a quality curd", so what does that imply for cheeses with shorter floc times? And why the difference for this particular cheese?
I'm just wondering how this info can be applied to my own cheese making to impart particular characteristics.
Pam

Hey Pam - let me start by saying I'm still working to solidify my understanding from my many exchanges with Pav, and Francois; and from all the texts and journals I've pored through over the relatively short time I've been at this.  This is a puny attempt to ask for forgiveness if I'm just plain screwed up in my understanding things. ;D

First: In even the French materials, this 25 min. figure represents a maximum; the AOC says 15-25 minutes "Temps de flocculation."   (See below, for other "Caractéristiques des principales étapes de fabrication du fromage de Beaufort."  It's in French, but even if you don't read French, it should be pretty easy to figure out - will translate later). 

I want to push out as far as I can, this notion of "slow and steady."  I am almost certain it's a frivolous overkill, with no practical benefit - feel pretty sure that there would be little, if no, organoleptic differences noted, ceteris paribus, comparing a 15 to a 25 minute flocculation.  I do it just to play, and see if I can sense a difference.  As I mention above, this may mean little more than "play," until I find a way to strictly isolate the effect on the cheese downstream - the "complex system" I was trying to discuss.

The bottom line is that I'm seeking a cheese with the right moisture and curd elasticity, for the Beauforts I've tried and loved.  I'm also seeking to do it in a fairly traditional way, at least until I can say I've fairly well mastered it.  (The Japanese martial-zen master/French chef thing talked of above, and I've lived both - the notion that a body of work not built on fundamentals first will always struggle for solidity.  I grant you here my bias, which tends to a kind of "fundamentals come from the ancient ones" mind).

Coupled with this "slow and steady" basis, I'm doing everything I can to ensure a higher pH pre-rennetting, and a relatively slow "curing," if possible, on the way down in terms of pH during pre-press and drain.  Hence, my relatively low culture dosing (0.78%, about midway in the AOC profile, but lower than I've seen generally here), my choice of the higher pH end of target windows at key production points.  Mind you, this itself will likely be a set of trials down the road - the "moisture and elasticity" trials I mention above. 

Sorry if this is all so convoluted; not on my best game as I'm pretty tuckered and am just slashing and burning through my thoughts.  Hope it's at least somewhat useful.  Will come back later to clean things up.

From the AOC materials (again, will translate later):

Tableau 5 : Caractéristiques de la coagulation du Beaufort
• Type Coagulation par voie enzymatique prédominante
• Auxiliaires de coagulation:
chlorure de calcium - Néant

levains lactiques Apport de mésophiles et de thermophiles (0,5 - 1
kg/100 kg lait) sous forme de lactosérum acidifié

enzyme coagulante Présure naturelle ou commerciale (f: 10/10.000):
15 – 22 ml/100 kg lait

• Acidité 16 – 18 ° D

• Température 28 – 32° C

• Temps de floculation 15 – 25 min

• Temps de coagulation totale 45 – 65 min

Tableau 6 : Caractéristiques de l'égouttage du Beaufort
• Type Egouttage accéléré par tranchage, brassage, chauffage et
pressage
• Chronologie des traitements

Tranchage Tranchage en grains réguliers (? : 0,3 – 0,5 cm)

Brassage Agitation modérée en 3 phases:

lère phase : Décantation des grains après tranchage
(t: 10 – 15 mn)
2ème phase : Montée en température à 53 – 55° C en 30 mn
3ème phase : Brassage final (t: 15 – 40 mn)

Moulage Décantation des grains, puis extraction et moulage

Pressage Pressage mécanique pendant 24 h

Refroidissement Refroidissement avant salage (T: 10 – 15° C, t: 24 h)
Salage
• Mode Salage par la surface à sec (t: 10 jours) et en saumure
(C: 25 – 26 % - T: 10 – 15° C - t: 24 h)
• Taux de sel 1,6 – 1,8 %

Tableau 7 : Caractéristiques de l'affinage du Beaufort
• Type Fromage avec affinage à l'air
• Température 10 – 15° C
• Humidité relative 85 – 90 %
• Durée 90 – 200 jours
• Rendement fromager 9 – 9,5 kg/100 kg lait

How does the releativly low salt content effect this specific type of cheese ?

Actually, tomer, if you'll check the propionic part of my reply to Yoav, you'll see that among the alpine makes, it's the highest salt content.  This makes sense - you are, basically, retarding the p. shermanii effect in Beaufort - don't want the large eyes (caused by CO2 generation), for one.  So, unlike Emmental (large eyes, salt content low, leading to a very active propionic metabolism), Beaufort is high salt - 8-13 g/kg for the Beaufort v. 3-6 for the Emmental.

This, by the way, Yoav, if you're still with the thread, is what leads me to question your suggestion to really hit heavy on the propionic dosage, 12x-18X the starting point generated by Sailor's recipe.  I wouldn't likely hit that for Emmental, much less for Beaufort.

Beaufort is sometimes called the "King of Gruyeres" so I manage mine as if it were a Gruyere. I prefer a stronger "Swiss" flavor from the propionic acid and other byproducts, so I do not overdo the salt. Increasing the P. shermanii dosage and then retarding growth with salt doesn't make too much sense to me.

As LB has pointed out in other threads, P. shermanii does grow and produce the same byproducts at lower temperatures, but more slowly. I like to give my Beauforts and Gruyeres 3 weeks in the cave and jump start the bacteria with just 24 hours at room temp. This gives the P. shermanii a metabolic boost with little or no CO2 production. This is non-traditional, but I like the results.

Quote from: SailorBeaufort is sometimes called the "King of Gruyère "

You're creating a revolution.  It's actually called "Prince of Gruyères".  ;D 

It is a Gruyère , much like Comté is also known as Gruyère de Comté.  However, it's important to me, at least, to make sure I honor the differences, as they do have them; salinity alone, for example - Comté, 4-10, Beaufort, 8-13 g/kg.  Propionic acid, Comté 1-4 g/kg, Beaufort - as I mentioned earlier, I find this striking, at least - a mere 0.05-0.2.  Very indicative, to me, of one very key part of Beaufort's nature, relative to its Savoie and Franche-Comté kin.

Quote...jump start the bacteria with just 24 hours at room temp. This gives the P. shermanii a metabolic boost with little or no CO2 production. This is non-traditional, but I like the results.

Actually, I believe it's quite traditional, Sailor, as I've seen this in many French materials.  The AOC material from Polytechnique Lille I've been citing a good deal mentions, for instance, indicates a 24 press.  "Pressage mécanique pendant 24 h."  The Beaufort AOC corroborates:

QuoteIl est pressé pendant 20 heures, période durant laquelle on le retourne régulièrement.

Saumurage
Après 24 heures de repos, le fromage est plongé dans un bain de saumure qui assure un premier salage.

So, quite traditional, a 20-24 hour press, followed by 24 hours resting at room temp. 

I have always perceived this period - which to me, seemed extraordinary - as being about a long, slow decline to proper pH levels, before salting; at which time further decline was halted by "saumurage."   

I know that if I gave anywhere near to this extended a warm-rest period, my cheese would be out of whack, way too low a pH - and that's with my relatively low SLAB inoculations, mentioned throughout these threads.  Prior to reading Pav's comment (see below), one of the reasons I thought to forego ST altogether, to be honest, in my thermo blend, was simply, to slow my make and drain acidification curves way the heck down. 

Now - if I hear you right, Sailor, you're saying this long warm rest is to give the benefits of prop. metabolism and lysis, while forestalling CO2; a good thing, so this would justify the lengthy resting period.  That's interesting.

On the other hand, I bagged on the notion of trying for ths lengthy period as a basically needless slavery to tradition (I distinguish needless from useful "slavery to tradition!), when I read Pav's comment:

Quote from: PavI don't see a reason to wait 16-24 hrs for the acidity to drop enough to where you can salt. That's a huge window of exposure for coliforms and other unwanted flora to multiply.

So, interesting.  Hope this generates some more discussion.  As this thread is about the concept of experiment design, trials for cheeses, perhaps it could be continued specifically in the thread I earlier created on just this topic, "Propionic in a Gruyère, without a warming period?"  Pav, I know you posted there, don't know if you want to continue or not, or continue here or there, if so).

The 24 hour pressing and then 24 hours at room temp that you reference is very different from my approach. I agree with Pav that resting at room temp for 16-24 hours without salting or brining is an unnecessary risk for contamination. After pressing/brining I always let almost all of my cheeses drain at room temp for 24-48 hours anyways. What I am referring to is 24 hours at room temp AFTER 3 weeks in the cave. After pressing, the lactic starter bacteria are still extremely active eating up lactose and converting to lactic acid. The pH continues to drop for a few days and there is a lot of competition for resources. So you would see very little activity from Propionic anyway. The way I do it, after 3 weeks in the cave, the LSB are much less active, lactose has seriously declined, the pH has actually gone UP, the LSB population is past it's peak and they are starting to die off. So the environment is now much more hospitable to Propionic. So for me the 24 hours at room temp becomes much more significant.

...and I have references that do call it the KING of Gruyeres. ;)

I'm not sure why you are comparing Beaufort to a Comte. There is a much closer relationship with a Gruyere. I also feel it is a practical fallacy to compare a naturally produced AOC cheese with one made in an artificial restricted environment like our homes or cheese factories. For example, many/most naturally produced Alpine types do not use added Propionic or even lactic bacteria at all since the cow's diets seem to furnish ample supply. In fact, some AOC cheeses are very specific about NOT adding artificial bacterial cultures. Manufactured cultures were developed as an attempt to mimic those natural conditions, but we can't really. But what manufactured cultures did do was standardize our results. I have do doubt that pure natural cheese has huge variations in taste and quality because of changes in the cows diet.

So here's a conundrum to ponder. If a French dairy farmer is making AOC cheeses by strictly natural techniques, how can he produce Comte or Gruyere one day, and then Beaufort the next? OK it can be argued that a given farmer only produces one type. So then why is the farmer over the next hill able to produce a different cheese with a different level of Propionic?

Now, Sailor, you're probably going to see some sarcasm below.  That would be because I have to admit, I THINK  I'm GETTING  a LOT of  ;) from you, don't tend to get a lotta love;  not sure why, despite my feeling it's pretty important to honor folks who've helped me out in the short time I'm here by crediting them for what they've given, and you've been included in that group.  I don't smell that bad, and I do brush my teeth once a week or so.

QuoteWhat I am referring to is 24 hours at room temp AFTER 3 weeks in the cave.

Gotcha.  Thanks for clarifying. 

Quote from: Sailor..and I have references that do call it the KING of Gruyeres.  ;)

Sailor, gotta say, it's that use of ALL CAPS and sarcastic winky-thing you do that always brings me to cold shivers, and mantras of "man, Arnaud.  You really are, just THAT stupid". lol. 

Ah, well, since I'm sure it's vitally important to this community whether we're calling it "King" or "Prince," now - do share. I'll show you mine, if you'll show me yours:

QuoteBEAUFORT AOC,The Prince of Gruyères,a cheese from The Alps.

http://www.travbuddy.com/travel-blogs/54696/BEAUFORT-AOC-Prince-Gruyres-cheese-14

Le Beaufort, prince des Gruyères
Beaufort : Prince des Gruyères
Le Prince des gruyères
making this "Prince of Gruyeres" a seasonal treat.
Beaufort, nicknamed the "Prince of Gruyeres."

-and, oh, about a billion more.  Kings, please?  Oh, yeah, almost plumb forgot - ;)

QuoteI'm not sure why you are comparing Beaufort to a Comte.

Well, because this thread is about Beaufort.  And you said,

Quote from: SailorBeaufort is sometimes called the "King of Gruyeres" so I manage mine as if it were a Gruyere.

This would be the Beaufort - Gruyere connection.

And Comte is also called, Gruyere de Comté.

This would be, the Comté-Gruyère connection.  Hence, what I've  said, uh, because these are all considered Gruyères, kin.  I'm not sure why you're splitting these particular hairs?

QuoteI also feel it is a practical fallacy to compare a naturally produced AOC cheese with one made in an artificial restricted environment like our homes or cheese factories.

Not sure if it's  logical fallacy, so long as its limitations are known.  E.g.,

Quote from: Pava 50/50 TA/LH is a decent starting point for Beaufort. In terms of flavor formation, it'll be alright. Not superb because the strains are wrong, but very good in terms of understanding and learning the make.

-and I have said, here and there and everywhere,

Quote from: AFAs Pav concludes - well, basically, my family and I need to move to the Savoie, most likely, as what I'm after is pretty intensely tied to the flora, geography and traditions indigenous to that part of the world.

Until then, or in lieu of that, I have to work to understand the underlying principles behind this style - its traditions, ingredients and methods - and do my best to parse it with what's available to me here, in the States.  I'm pretty confident that by sticking to that approach I will - as my late Sensei (his name was Tenzan Fumio Toyoda) once said to me, "master this, and you can master anything."

Quote from: AFNot a big deal, I suppose - my traditionalist blinder, my desire for a true, alpage Beaufort, jamming my logical radars, I know.  I would be interested in trying your "chalet emulation" blend of strains, however, at some point, even if it's a mild differentiation from my TA61, and LH100.  As to moving to France, yes, you're right, and this is probably at the heart of it all.

-Etc.  I'm well aware that without living there, I'm not making a Beaufort - any more than you're making a Stilton, to be honest.  Which is why I say so.  What I am trying to do is to learn a few things, in a few fairly rigorous ways.  Not sure why that's not being picked up. ;)

QuoteSo here's a conundrum to ponder. If a French dairy farmer is making AOC cheeses by strictly natural techniques, how can he produce Comte or Gruyere one day, and then Beaufort the next? OK it can be argued that a given farmer only produces one type.

Yes, a given French fermier produces only one type.  If you're asking me, some of it is due to things that make sense (there are microclimates), and some of it is due to the weight of history, far removed any longer from the reality on the ground (e.g., the 1855 Bordeaux classifications). 

Quote from: SailorSo then why is the farmer over the next hill able to produce a different cheese with a different level of Propionic?

Well, if you're saying that the natural levels of propionic in their environment differ:

Quote from: Sailor
For example, many/most naturally produced Alpine types do not use added Propionic or even lactic bacteria at all since the cow's diets seem to furnish ample supply.

I'd say there's your answer - different autochthonous culture yielding a different result.

If you're saying, different farmers use different levels of adjunct prop., I'd say you're contradicting yourself. 

QuoteFor example, many/most naturally produced Alpine types do not use added Propionic or even lactic bacteria at all since the cow's diets seem to furnish ample supply. In fact, some AOC cheeses are very specific about NOT adding artificial bacterial cultures.

Quote from: SailorSo then why is the farmer over the next hill able to produce a different cheese with a different level of Propionic?

Cannot exist in the same universe, if your first paragraph attempts to argue by reliance on natural environmental and material endowments alone, and the second attempts to argue by alchemical usage of Propionic.

Which is it?  ;)


And can we perhaps truly stick to constructive thoughts on my proposed experimental design, and move this discussion of propionic over to the propionic thread I created, as I mentioned, by any chance?  ;)

More than happy to continue this in PM, though my past PM's to you have gone unanswered. 

Yours,

Paul

woah, woah, gentlemen. You're both wrong :). I'm just kidding...  :o. Drinks? Cheers?

Here's the history of all these cheeses, if anyone really wants to know:

Back 2000-some years ago, there was a group of people who inhabited the entire region of the Jura called the Sequani http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequani. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequani.) These people, even in Roman times, made a cheese that was a hard cheese, scalded to high temperature, and salted on the outside, then left to ripen. Everyone made the same basic style of cheese all in the region. There was no France, there was no Switzerland. And it was generally called gruyere. Who started it? The Sequanes, who lived in what is now both France and Switzerland. The French say they did and have evidence going back more than 1,000 years. And the Swiss say they did, and show their history going back 1,000 years.

Fast forward to modern times. In all those years, some differences developed among all the regions. But they all made the same basic cheese. These differences included that in the Comte region, before they made their gruyere, they would skim the fat off the milk. Whereas in Switzerland, for their gruyere did not. In 1959, the French were tired of fighting over the name of gruyere and said "we are the original cheese-eating surrender monkeys. We will just keep doing everything the same but rebrand our cheese as comte. (And get some guys to push through the AOC)." So they did, and comte was born. As a way to thumb their noses at the Swiss and create market differentiation, they called comte "the king of the gruyeres".

But, it wasn't the end. There were people who made gruyere the old-school way, with alpage milk. So they said, screw you guys, we are going to make Beaufort in France. From the best milk in the best conditions. And we're going to make it small scale, not like your huge cooperatives who make Comte. And hey, we already have a king of the gruyeres, so let's call this the prince, because it's younger, cooler, and uses Facebook.  It also has these badass racing stripes on the side. Concave, baby! So that's what these guys did. And it didn't end there. The Swiss went OMG Nooooes!! The hugh manatee1!11!1!one!. And they made their own Beaufort, but called it L'etivaz.

Fin

Not really the end. Everyone fights over the name. It's all the same cheese with slight variations to account for terroir, process, cow breeds, etc. Best way to look at it is that gruyere is a family of cheeses, and they're all made basically the same way.

Blessed are the Peacemakers.  :)

However, never, never mention the Sequani before my gallic blood. 

(http://www.deiuokara.com/archives/vercingetorix_millet.jpg)

Mon arrière-arrière-arrière....arrière-grand-père.  ;D

wow, really? An Arvani? That's Vircingetorix, right? Or am I confusing my statues. I remember reading about that battle in Plutach. Mine were a combination of Vikings, who pillaged and plundered the populace, and Mongols, who pillages and plundered the populace, and the Muscovite nobles, who exploited the populace. With the coming of socialism, most of my ancestors were slaughtered, or driven to poverty, or put in camps.

Hahahah, no, not really, yes, I wish it were so, yes, I dream it so, and yes, the biggest, baddest chieftain west of the Alps, the guy who's pic is on my son's wall...Vercingetorix.

Cool you have such a good knowledge on your background, Pav.  I think one of modernity's great tragedies is this not knowing where one comes from.  Though I am really sorry to hear what your family underwent under the USSR.  My wife's family, too - horrible time under Joe (whose grandaughter, we actually know.  Now that's pretty wild, given my wife's experience with him).

Paul, I was flipping yesterday in one of my cheese books, French Cheese, [DK Publishing, ISBN 0-7566-1402-3, suggested retail: $20.00] (highly recommended) and accidentally stopped over the Beaufort pages while looking for some other cheese.  I thought this would be really great info for you.  The editor of this great cheese volume spent actual time with the cheesemakers and did thorough research as in all of DK's publications.

I was too lazy to get that dreaded scanner out of the closet and connect it but had a digital camera nearby so I captured those 3 pages for you.  Hope you dins it useful. See image attachments below, click for larger size.

Edit: Amazon link to the book: http://www.amazon.com/French-Cheese-Eyewitness-Companions-Publishing/dp/0756614023 (http://www.amazon.com/French-Cheese-Eyewitness-Companions-Publishing/dp/0756614023) - apparently it is out of print currently and some booksellers sell it for some ridiculous prices.

Fantastic, thanks very much Yoav!

Funny thing is - [url-http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0751303461]my book by Yasui & Yamada[/url] was lost somewhere, so I just bought both books, the DK and this one.  Especially now, seeing the pics, I can't wait. 

I've also got Pierre Androuet (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0856280070)'s books coming, and several on grazing/farming/locavore - Salatin (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0963810928), Pollan  (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0143038583)(no, I never read it), Larry Tranel (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/096324602X), Graze, The Stockman Grass Farmer, and more.  I am also seriously considering our own UW Madison Short Course in Dairying, with an emphasis in rotational grazing. 

New life, and a surfeit of good material, in between my 3 cheeses of this Spring-into-Summer - Beaufort, reblochons, and new tommes.  Thanks again, Yoav, very much appreciated.

Paul

You are welcome Paul!

Androuët is great (I visited their amazing fromagerie in Paris; amazing).  I would watch out though when buying the book; it has been published for several decades now (Pierre Androuët died in 2005 a very old man...) and you really need a new version to include all those cheese resurrections that occurred in Europe lately. Especially a myriad of new additions to the AOC club...

I too am now working my spring-to-summer milk. Oh my! I have 3 fantastic batches in the cave; one is my own bloomy rind sensation, I call it x26 (they only get names once they are a replicable commercial grade recipe). It's a hay-aged square camembert-like cheese with very complex rind and a ridiculous combination of starters.  The second is a washed rind Trappist style cheese, somewhere between a Reblochon, Tallegio and Saint Nectaire. Very unique wash on that one.  The third is my personal take on Chabichou; it's a lactic aged goats cheese that has some yeasty sweetness to it and rather hard rind that locks in moist pate.  I would post photos when done.

Tonight I got some local organic grass-fed jersey milk. I am going to do something rather crazy with it; details to come.

Really got to get back to Tommes, I need to put a few for long term aging in the cave. Running out of space here :)

Paul,

Sorry to be so late on this, but I'm relatively new in town.

I don't do cultures.....I buy them.   Could you break down the starter, etc. used for your 5 gallons?

I've made Gruyeres before but wasn't 'thrilled' with the result.  I think I used a Margaret Morris
recipe.

annie

Annie, per the comment in the "camembert-brie" thread, a work in progress; but for now, I depend for my mesos in the milk I source (and here, it doesn't appear there are many meso-SLABs, at all), and come in at 1% primer bulk equivalent (let me know if this is new to you - Sailor has a fantastic thread on what he does, Pav and Francois also contribute their expertise) thermophilics only for inoculation - 50% TA (S. thermophilis) and 50% LH100 (e.g., 25% L. helveticus, 25% L. del. lactis). 

I also do inoculate with a very small amt. of propionic, per Sailor's recipe.  None of my Beauforts have been aged long enough to play, yet, with this contribution, but I've come to understand it's dynamics, relative to other alpine styles (emmental, comte, etc.).

The classic breeds for Beaufort are the Tarentaise and Montbéliard.  As I'm sure you know, everything depends on individual cows, lactation period, feed methods, etc., but I've seen an average for Tarentaise of 3.6 fat and 3.35% protein, and for Montbéliard of 3.66 fat/3.23% protein.  Obviously, Jerseys are much higher, edging to 5% fat and 3.75% protein.


Since my Jersey milk is higher fat than the milk from the Beaufort area,
I need help.  If I use approx. 3/4 whole and 1/4 skim, I  can get close
to the fat content.  But I believe that this would also reduce the protein...

Should I use dry milk to fortify or just not worry about it?

annie

Annie, personally, I wouldn't worry about it.  If you poke around, if you haven't already, you'll find how much I crave re-creating this, and other French alpine makes, in an authentic, traditional way.  I really have no other desire, in cheesemaking, than "capturing the ancients," and no pretense to improving on much.

I've had to learn a hard lesson, and that is, to either move to Jura, or shut up, and do my best with what I have.  I can't make Beaufort, reblochon, tomme, Mont D'Or; at least not where I am, with the materials - land, milk, indigenous and added flora - I have.  But I can learn tons by trying, and what I'm coming up with is pretty darn pleasurable.

So, I'd say, with your jersey, you've got a wonderful resource.  You can skim it back, and I'd warrant you'll come up with an extraordinary cheese.

Paul,

Thanks for your time.

Since I cook, A LOT, I use lots of Parmesan.  I have made it but didn't like the result.  I was told
that this was another case of protein/fat imbalance for the cheese.  I tried using skim milk, but from
what I read that was only part of the problem....As in Beaufort, just the fat and not the
protein needed to be reduced.  So once again, for another cheese, I would like to know
how to reduce fat and not protein.  Do you know how to do this.  If you do, I would certainly
be grateful if you could tell me how.

annie

Annie, perhaps I need to say it another way.  Not only can we not make "Beaufort", living in the States, but even within Beaufort, there is variation.  The above stats for the Beaufort cattle breeds that I gave you are only averages; as I said, there is considerable variation, even for a single Tarentaise cow, depending on a whole host of conditions.  (For instance, I have a spreadsheet that I made, to estimate yearly need, based on estimations among 4 breeds' yield, protein and fat levels - the protein level I used on that spreadsheet is higher, for the two Beaufort animals).

In other words, I suggested, just go for it.  Skim some, and make the cheese.  Provided all other things are done reasonably well, I can't see why you won't end up with a product giving pleasure.

Paul,

Thanks for all your time.

annie

Oh, not at all, annie.  I am only a beginner hoping to walk a long and rigorous path, and I've been helped immeasurably by many people here.  I hope the above gives you some help; anytime, ask away, and I'll do my best. 

Paul

Annie - one way to increase protein levels and not increase fat is to add some nonfat dry milk. I do this all the time with cheeses like Parmesans that need a lower fat content. In fact, I never use skim milk, even in Mozzarella and yogurt. I feel that by taking away the milk fat, you are also removing a lot of the flavor and "mouth feel". So, instead of using skim I use whole milk and add some NFD. That reduces the overall fat ratio, increases the proteins and decreases the calories per serving portion. I typically use 4 cups in 35 gallons of whole milk and have not had any off flavors.

You can also use NFD to help "repair" over processed store bought milk. This will usually give a better curd set.

Thanks Sailor.  Paul said I could just use the raw Jersey for the Beaufort. 

But I am sure that all my recipes for Parm call for lower fat/higher protein milk. 
I use a VERY high fat Jersey raw.  Do you think I should skim it a little and then
boost protein with the nonfat dry milk?

annie

Quote from: arkc on June 01, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
Thanks Sailor.  Paul said I could just use the raw Jersey for the Beaufort. 

annie, to be clear, what I was saying was that if you're trying to lock in a single "milk" that is the "Beaufort milk," it can't be done; even if using the two breeds used in making Beaufort, Tarentaise and Montbéliard, you'll find the milk is always going to be a moving target - and this ignores the fact the forage, climate, indigenous flora, etc., are entirely different, so unless living in Le Beaufortain, we'll never make true Beaufort.  But we will make extraordinary cheese, nonetheless.  So, I just suggested skimming some of the excess fat from the Jersey and going ahead.  Many do.

I wouldn't presume to speak for you, but I think I understand where you're coming from; if I've read you right, it's my tendency too, to hope for a kind of reductionist answer that will make for the perfect solution.  It's been hard for me to learn, and to accept, that in this art and science, it's the act of making hard choices among many, often cross-purpose, optima; compromises in one way or the other, to try and make the best possible product. 

Again, I don't mean to speak out of turn, or be presumptive; just rings a bell, what I'm seeing, and hope to offer some constructive thoughts.  :)

You read me right!!!

I've been called a perennial perfectionist, or if you like, COMPULSIVE!!

But, laughing all the time.

And once again,  thanks.

annie

Sailor, that's interesting. These are cheeses that had originated traditionally from milk that has been skimmed to make butter or cream, or from morning milk that has more protein and less fat (generally speaking, I know that in the summer months morning protein can be similar or lower than evening and in spring months evening milk carries more fat or similar fat to morning milk).

But doesn't this change the balance of the cheese?  More fat means a totally different lipolytic activity (and both Mozzarella and Parmesan call for lipase in them for a reason).  Adding milk powder to supplement protein would change the proteolytic activity.  What do you do to keep the balance going?

Annie, Paul - I personally would feel very guilty if I am ever in the position to skim Jersey milk. It's like getting a Ferrari and forcing yourself through a traffic jam, or buying a nice piece of Brie de Meaux AOC and throwing away the rind...

Quote from: iratherfly on June 01, 2011, 08:33:32 PM
These are cheeses that had originated traditionally from milk that has been skimmed to make butter or cream, or from morning milk that has more protein and less fat (generally speaking, I know that in the summer months morning protein can be similar or lower than evening and in spring months evening milk carries more fat or similar fat to morning milk).

Yoav, I'm unclear if we're still talking about Beaufort, or the Italian hard cheeses.  If Beaufort, that's not my understanding.  It's actually a full-fat cheese.  And the wheels are made from an entire herd's milking, 2x daily. 

QuoteI personally would feel very guilty if I am ever in the position to skim Jersey milk.

Yep, but sometimes it's necessary.  I know at least one maker who must do this, if his daily herd-mix is too heavy in Jersey.  Make butter, not war.

OK Guys, I am very confused!   Now what?

annie

Hahah - yes, the joys of forums, annie.  I know your pain.  But that's only because I've tended to  want one, unassailable answer, which is impossible in a room full of talented makers.  I can again suggest you just try skimming your milk back and going ahead - again, one noted maker of an American "Beaufort" does this regularly.  I'd also suggest you try it a billion different ways.  I've got 5 in my cooler right now - each one, done differently.  Starting next week, I'm foregoing PLA and blends altogether, and doing trials, with summer milk, using pure strains among b. casei, b. linens, R2R, DH, MVA, etc.  And on and on. 

I can say, unabashedly, that I have leaned very, very heavily on linuxboy, Francois, and Sailor, in trying like the dickens to learn all I can.  They've been of inestimable help, as have many others. 

Beyond reading what they have to say, I can only suggest - having read all you want or can, just give something a try, see how it came out, and adjust.  I know it's hard, when each of these cheeses take 6 mos. or longer, but I don't really know a better way.  Even if there is "one" answer, based on a person's optimum - well, we each have different tastes, you know?  The only thing we can do is hone our palate to razor-sharp sensitivity, and try to match up our technical chops with what our palate is telling us.

Have fun. :)

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on June 01, 2011, 08:36:55 PM
Yoav, I'm unclear if we're still talking about Beaufort, or the Italian hard cheeses.  If Beaufort, that's not my understanding.  It's actually a full-fat cheese.  And the wheels are made from an entire herd's milking, 2x daily.

Sorry, it was a bit off-topic, I was just asking Sailor on the Italian cheeses

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on June 01, 2011, 09:00:06 PMStarting next week, I'm foregoing PLA and blends altogether, and doing trials, with summer milk, using pure strains among b. casei, b. linens, R2R, DH, MVA, etc.  And on and on.

I just hope you are not trying them all together :)  Why MVA and not PLA?  How many wheels do you have that you are going to run all those tests on? Also, expect R2R to change the appearance of the cheese completely.\.

Add to your list ARN. It's a fantastic culture that is interesting to use wherever you would have otherwise used PLA. Different appearance and aromatic properties.

QuoteSorry, it was a bit off-topic, I was just asking Sailor on the Italian cheeses

Oh, no worries at all, Yoav, thought so, just wanted to be clear, as annie is looking for some guidance on Beaufort, and I didn't want her to get confused.

QuoteI just hope you are not trying them all together :) 

Why not?  These flora are commonly found together in Beaufort rind and morges, so I'm looking forward to playing engineer...

QuoteWhy MVA and not PLA? 

Because MVA is pure strain micrococcus, s. xylosus, and PLA is a blend.  Two entirely different things.  Why do you make the comparison?

QuoteHow many wheels do you have that you are going to run all those tests on?

Playing with an intended 6 over the summer months.

QuoteAlso, expect R2R to change the appearance of the cheese completely.\.

Yes, I expect so.  Will be fun to see - if I can obtain it.  Some difficulty, here in the States, but it's possible.

QuoteAdd to your list ARN. It's a fantastic culture that is interesting to use wherever you would have otherwise used PLA. Different appearance and aromatic properties.

From prior conversation, yep, I know you're a fan.  I may do a one-off, for kicks.  But for now, playing with single-strain cultures.

My final take is:

Beaufort - Jersey whole, maybe a 'tiny' skim....Courtesy Paul

Parm - Jersey whole, no skim but 'some' nonfat dry.....Courtesy Sailor

And Yoav,  what do you think also?

annie

QuoteI personally would feel very guilty if I am ever in the position to skim Jersey milk. It's like getting a Ferrari and forcing yourself through a traffic jam, or buying a nice piece of Brie de Meaux AOC and throwing away the rind...

EXACTLY the way I feel. :) Breaks my heart to sacrifice flavor with less milk fat.

QuoteBut doesn't this change the balance of the cheese?  More fat means a totally different lipolytic activity (and both Mozzarella and Parmesan call for lipase in them for a reason).  Adding milk powder to supplement protein would change the proteolytic activity.  What do you do to keep the balance going?

My rationale is that using NFD actually puts the cheese IN balance. A Parm for example needs a higher protein ratio. Let me restate for clarity, it doesn't need less fat, it needs more protein. In terms of lipolytic activity, the fat RATIO is lower than straight whole milk. As far as proteolysis goes, the NFD provides a higher ratio of proteins, therefor there are more proteins for enzymes, like Lipase, to work on. So, I don't feel like adding milk powder to supplement protein changes the proteolytic activity.  To me it puts things in balance for a particular type of cheese or a particular goal.

The PF ratio determines the rate of whey expulsion (higher fat curd is slower to release whey) and ultimately effects  the fat content of the finished cheese.

The Catch 22 is that Jersey and other milks can be really over the top for many cheeses. So you can either skim the milk, and remove flavor, or add NFD to put things in balance. I believe somewhere in the archives, Linuxboy gave some formulas for hitting target protein ratios.

Thanks Sailor - Interesting good info.  I still feel that it's strange using products like NFD. ...something not as basic as wholesome milk. (I am old fashioned, what can I say?). The other element of it is that I suspect that even with the perfect PF ratio your ratio to minerals/acids/water may be a bit off.  I would like to experiment with this some time and see what I get.

Paul - First off, if you could have all these things grow at once on your cheese it would be bland and confused in character.  My 5 cents are less is more. Not only would you not need so many types of geos, yeasts and b.linens growing on your cheese but also it will not allow you to figure out which are responsible for whatever characteristics you desire or not. They will blend not only in their appearance but also in the flavor and aroma. The best practice is to create a clean and focused cheese and go as simple as possible. Then, switch only ONE thing on your next batch such as the yeast or the B.Linen strain until you find your perfect combination.  Using all of them at once is a bit like trying to find a melody by hitting all the keys of a musical instrument simultaneously if you know what I mean.

The other aspect is the biological reality of cheese. There is simply only so much nutrients to go around. The more bacterium you propagate, the more competition exists over the nutrients. It's an all-out war out there and only the strong survive. At the end of the day, half the bacterium you plant will fail to grow completely because it would be out-compete the other half.  You really need to plan the bacterial design of the cheese so that the few cultures you are using would be compatible with each other in the given conditions at each stage. Think of it as growing plants in a garden; You give them space, light, nutrients. You never overcrowd a small plot because they will compete over land, nutrients, water and light. Does that make sense?

Annie I am a traditionalist. I feel that cheese is a product of circumstances and heirloom skills. It's okay that your Parmesan or Beaufort are a local style or your own personal style. My own personal style is to do the best that I can with whatever is available to me (cave, cultures, local milk, skill) but keep traditions such as pure cheese with no additives.  While NFD is an innocent harmless and natural addition (unlike stabilizers, preservatives, colorants etc.) it is still not a normal part of your local organic living breathing milk.  That doesn't mean it won't taste great by the way.  I would just always try making it without it.  That's just my personal philosophy of cheesemaking and consumption when I buy cheese.

QuoteFirst off, if you could have all these things grow at once on your cheese it would be bland and confused in character. 

But these things don't grow all at once on a cheese, any more than they do in nature, or any more than they do when using a blend - your ARN, for example.  I think that's a bit of a leap to say that just because we use multiple species on a cheese, it will all be a jumbled, confused and bland mass; ecological succession takes care of that, for the most part.  Yet they are found, together. 

Basically, I am using a blend - my own.  Instead of PLA or ARN, I'm using DH, geo (yeasts, aromatics, de-acidifiers), SR3, FR22, FR13 (linens, with different properties), MVA (micrococcus), LBC (B. casei) with some thought on desired ends, and using what information Danisco provides to make my best guess.

QuoteMy 5 cents are less is more.

I agree - it's been my cooking way all my life.  This represents a departure for me.  That said, if we're using blends of things, then none of us are really minimalists, are we?  At the end of the day, my cave is going to balance out to some complex mix of a ton of stuff, anyway.

QuoteNot only would you not need so many types of geos, yeasts and b.linens growing on your cheese but also it will not allow you to figure out which are responsible for whatever characteristics you desire or not. They will blend not only in their appearance but also in the flavor and aroma. The best practice is to create a clean and focused cheese and go as simple as possible. Then, switch only ONE thing on your next batch such as the yeast or the B.Linen strain until you find your perfect combination.  Using all of them at once is a bit like trying to find a melody by hitting all the keys of a musical instrument simultaneously if you know what I mean.

I do understand what you mean, Yoav, and I had thought of that - in fact, see the beginning of the thread.  I do think the only issue with the above - and this has been hard for me to accept, as I love strict methodology, to a certifiable fault - is that it's impossible to do a strictly scientific method, to isolate out each variable, since so much of the character is derived from the interplay of these flora; they don't exist in vacuo. 

You are right, in that a morge, rind, etc. are never pure strains, and are made up of tons of strain variations.  But again, we do the best with what's available.  Eventually, I'll probably just end up in the Savoie.  Till then, you like ARN, and I'm monkeying with making up my own ARN, in a word. 

Pav did make a great suggestion, which will help to pin down some things - find the specific proteolytic properties of each strain, their specific peptidolytic and amino-peptidolytic properties (e.g., b. casei has known properties...and I'm playing sleuth, only going on what I can find; Fox et al, mentions b. casei "has an active aminopeptidase and a proline-specific peptidase with debittering activity...").  I'm working on getting more detailed info along these lines, so I'm not flying so blind. 

This may have been missed - you asked why I was using MVA, and not PLA, and I didn't see the reasoning, since one is a micrococcus, and one, a blend.  Did you want to go into this more?

QuoteI believe somewhere in the archives, Linuxboy gave some formulas for hitting target protein ratios.

Does anyone have any idea where this might be?

annie