All the recipes I have for hard cheese are either 3-4 gallons or 25 gallons.
How do I adjust the rennet for say 6 gallons.
It is directly proportional, but you should study up on the flocculation method. That's the right way to determine the amount of rennet that you need.
I'm confused.....I thought that the spinning bowl method just gave you the flocc time and not the
amount of rennet to use????
arkc
Arkc- remember,all things are interrelated. Meaning the amount of rennet added(and other factors) will determine how long the flocculation time is. the more rennet added, the shorter the flocculation time. So if your flocculation time that you need is say 12 minutes,and you actually determine it to be 15 minutes, you know the next time you make this particular cheese that you probably want to add a little more rennet. That will shorten the flocculation time.
Sorry, I was thinking Sailor meant you could tell for the current 'do' how much to use.
That , of course makes much more sense...
Thanks,
arkc
Sailor is right on the money. I'll also note that I start at .5ml of rennet per gallon (for a hard cheese) and adjust following makes according to the floc time. But once you have your floc time down, that doesn't allow you to forget about checking floc time, as seasonal variations occur. Since you're using your own milk, and likely making cheese 2 to 3 times a week, you'll really be able to see what your milk is doing over time.
Well that's all fine and good but how many batches of 6-8 gallons of milk am I going to waste trying to figure out how much rennet to use.
When you say it is all relative, relative to what.
I have a recipe for Feta that uses 1tsp of rennet for 1 gallon of milk . I make this every week and love it. One of my best sellers. I can make the same recipe using 3 gallons of milk. If I go by the theory that everything is relative, in my mind double the milk, double the everything else, would mean 3 tsp of rennet--way too much.
Even the bottle of rennet says 1/2 tsp for 2 gallon of milk. But we know that is not always the case. It is recipe specific. Soft cheese I use 2 gallons and 3 drops. Hard cheese I use 2 gallons and 3/4 tsp.
So back to the original question. How do I increase the amount of rennet if I am increasing my recipe from 3 gallons to 6. I am making Edam from The cheesemakers Manual.
The recipe for 3-4 gallons calls for 3/4 tsp. I made a 6 gallon batch using a bit over 1 tsp and it flopped. I got a mass of rice like curds in a lump.
If the feta works fine with 1 gal/1 tsp, why do you say doing the same proportion for a 3-gal batch is too much?
In any event, I just do the straight math (most of my recipes are for 2-4 gallons, and I do three gallon batches most times), and it works out fine, whether for hard or moldy cheeses. If I'm not sure, I use just a tad less rennet on the first try (scant tsp instead of full one, for example) and then adjust slightly in future makes based on floc time.
Steff, you don't throw out a batch of cheese just because you didn't get the floc time right. I can see you're getting frustrated, but bear with us. Get your rennet out. Look at its instructions on the bottle. If it's instructions aren't quite clear, contact your supplier and get the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) from them. I did fail to mention that I am using double strength rennet. Not all rennet is created equally, so I did fail you there. So, start with the manufacturers recommended rate, and adjust from there. Now, for recipes calling for a floc time, try for it and adjust accordingly. What you seem to not be taking into account is the variability between milk. It is so much so that YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO PLAY AROUND WITH THE RENNET AMOUNT. For example, if you and I have genetically identical herds, and use the same rennet, are making cheese at the same time, but you are East Coast and I am West Coast, there will be a difference in the make up of the milk due to diet, weather, and some other variables.
A month ago I was using .5ml of rennet to 1 gallon of milk and acheiving a 12 minute floc time. Now, that same amount of rennet is giving me an 8 minute floc time!! So, clearly I had to back down the rennet.
So, since my floc time is down, using my floc multiplier of 3, I cut at 24 minutes instead of 36 minutes, giving me similar curd for varying rennet amounts. Make sense?
"I made a 6 gallon batch using a bit over 1 tsp and it flopped. I got a mass of rice like curds in a lump." That sounds more like movement of the milk was an issue, not the rennet. Others please comment on this area.
I don't have any magic answers. But would reinforce what you said about variability. I made a Pyrenees a few week ago with a floc time 9 minutes. So the next time I backed down on the rennet and was 12 minutes. Pretty good. Then, a few weeks later, that same (decreased amount) gave me a floc time of 30 minutes! I can't keep up! But will adjust accordingly. (After 20 minutes I began to question if I actually remembered the rennet!) Maybe that one was a fluke so because it was a bit of an outlier. I will try again with similar amount before making a big adjustment.
Susan
I also notice a lot of variability in my milk, esp. seasonally with feed changes, and, with lactation cycle. Sometimes, when I don't have floc within 20 minutes, I have added another little bit of rennet to speed things up. I'm wondering now if that is a no-no? The cheeses haven't seemed to be hurt by this.
Good discussion.
Quote from: mtncheesemaker(Pam) on May 15, 2011, 06:00:29 PM
Sometimes, when I don't have floc within 20 minutes, I have added another little bit of rennet to speed things up. I'm wondering now if that is a no-no?
I would be interested in the answer to this as well. When my floc time went over 20 min I considered adding more. But I reasoned that if it was trying to set up (what if it is 2 min away!) and I go stirring it (to add more) I would disrupt it and make things worse. So which is worse.. a floc time that is way too long, or disrupting it to add more rennet to decrease the floc time?
Susan
QuoteSo which is worse.. a floc time that is way too long, or disrupting it to add more rennet to decrease the floc time?
For which cheese? It's actually tough to generalize this across all cheeses. It's possible for a specific technology of cheese, though. For example tomme types have specific "best" parameters, and so do alpine types, and so do semi-lactic types.
This one happened to be a Pyrenees. I suppose it varies with 'groups' of cheese? But why? It seems if it is trying to create this gelled state, disrupting it would be universally a problem (or not).
Susan
So I at least need a starting point. 3 gallon recipe for Edam calls for 3/4 tsp which worked out well. I want to double the amount of milk should I start out with double the rennet? What if I want to make two or three 3 gallon batches at a time?
My rennet says 1/2 tsp for two gallons milk.
I am not frustrated with you guys, you guys are great.
I just find this confusing.
I think I get Flocc. time but if I start with nearly not enough rennet or way too much I am never going to get it right.
So Sorry! We hijacked your thread. When you say 3/4 tsp 'worked well' do you mean it gave you the floc time you were looking for? If it gave you just want you wanted, then you double the milk and double the rennet. So if 3/4 tsp for 3 gallons, then 1 1/2tsp for 6 gallons.
I think the point is that that amount could be perfect today and need adjusting in a couple of months if the milk changes. I imagine this is less of an issue with commercially produced milk where the cows are always fed the same, as opposed to getting it from the local farmer. Though I don't know this to be a fact.
Susan
Because families of cheeses have usually a very tight variance for their levels of calcium and their levels of moisture. Those two things are determined by the rennet ph, cut pH, cut size, drain pH, and salt pH. Meaning you can't compare an alpine style where you might add rennet at 6.6, vs a tomme where you rennet at 6.55 or 6.5. Or a bloomy rind where you rennet at 6.45-6.5. Or a semi-lactic where you rennet at 6.0-6.2.
Does that make sense? Each family is a technology of cheese. Everything about it, from starter selection to starter amount, to stir time to curd size, etc, it all works together. Much of the time when we make cheese, we're making one cheese with minor variations along the continuum. That's why most cheeses use a 3/8" curd, for example.
We talk about the thousands of flavor possibilities with cheese, but during the make, there are maybe 4-5 major variables. Affinage is responsible for the rest.
Steff, when you think about recipe scaling, don't think in terms of all these inexact measurements? Who the heck knows what exactly a 3/4 tsp is. Take a small syringe, like what you use for kids... a 3 cc from jeffers or wherever you get your meds, and measure out in ml. And use this conversion:
for 100 lbs regular goat milk
use 8-10 ml single strength (200 IMCU) rennet for hard and semi-hard cheeses (not semi-lactic types)
each gallon of goat milk is about 8.6 lbs. Convert accordingly. For example, if your rennet is double strength, use 4-5 ml per 100 lbs. If you have 2 gallons, that's 17.2 lbs. And then do the basic match and figure out your measurement in ml, and draw it up into your syringe and call it a day.
Then check floc. Say you start out with the 8 ml/100 lb. If that gives you a long floc, then next time, use 9 ml. Still too long? use 10 ml. Shouldn't need more than that. If you do, need to troubleshoot your milk, maybe add CaCl2, etc. If you use this method, you can practice on a gallon or less because that small syringe lets you be really really precise. Then you can scale up and what worked for a gallon will work for 1,000 gallons.
QuoteI think the point is that that amount could be perfect today and need adjusting in a couple of months if the milk changes.
This is an excellent point. Many small producers will have 4 "recipes" for the same cheese to account for seasonal fluctuation. For example, in the summer, I find the goats drink more water, and the milk is a tad thinner, so I will adjust my rennet up a little to achieve the same time to floc. I will also make different cheese... for example tomme in the summer, and lactic types in the winter.
I have been having a lot of milk fluctuations over the past 2 months with both floc times and yield. My Mennonite milk supplier told me some things that helped me understand the fluctuations better. During the Winter, cows drink less water so the milk is richer. During the Summer they drink more, and as Pav pointed out, the milk actually gets thinner. But the farmer also explained that cows can self regulate their body temperature until the air temp hits 68F. After that they have to start drinking more water to thermo-regulate. For the past 6 weeks or so our weather has been all over the map. Just a few days ago it was in the upper 80s here. Today it was in the low 50s and tomorrow night it's supposed to get down to 42F. There's no way that a cow's milk can be consistent with such rapidly changing conditions.
To further complicate things, we discussed wet vs dry silage for feeding the animals. Wet silage means more water in the cows stomachs, often when they really don't need extra water to thermo-regulate. I'm probably opening up a can of worms here, but he felt that some farmers are just lazy or in too big of a hurry to dry their hay and grains properly. Some will cut in the morning and bale in the same afternoon, leaving way too much moisture. He explained that wet silage will also ferment instead of digesting properly and that too will impact the milk quality. Apparently the poor digestion can cause the cows to develop ketosis, a metabolic disorder that occurs when energy demands exceed energy intake and result in a negative energy balance. Legume and grass silages containing high levels of butyric acid and other nitrogen-containing compounds reduce silage palatability and increases the risk of ketosis by increasing the supply of ketone precursors to cattle.
There are urine and blood tests for the condition, but he says that he can smell the ketones in a cow's breath.
To put that into a human perspective, Ketones in the urine, common in type 1 diabetes, is a sign that your body is using fat for energy because not enough insulin is available to utilize glucose. Doctors of old used to actually taste a sample of a patient's urine to test for diabetes. And many diabetics have been mistakenly charged with intoxication because of the Ketone smell on their breath.
Not wanting to further hijack the thread, so back to the point. These are more reasons to use the flocculation method and not simple recipe directions. The amount of rennet that you need to use is not a constant.
Mr. Sailor,
Your information makes it sound as though each and every time we make any cheese, we
will need to do a flocc test prior to the actual make. Is there any way we can extrapolate
the information from a smaller batch. For example, can we test 1/2 gallon and expand the
results to 6 or 8 gallons?
A secondary question, how will this testing impact the actual 'do'? It will obviously take
time, therefore changing the 'freshness' of our milk and thereby affect the actual making
of our cheese.
annie
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 16, 2011, 12:47:12 AM
Apparently the poor digestion can cause the cows to develop ketosis, a metabolic disorder that occurs when energy demands exceed energy intake and result in a negative energy balance. Legume and grass silages containing high levels of butyric acid and other nitrogen-containing compounds reduce silage palatability and increases the risk of ketosis by increasing the supply of ketone precursors to cattle.
There are urine and blood tests for the condition, but he says that he can smell the ketones in a cow's breath.
It's true, the breath has a sweet ketone-y smell in ketosis. Very distinctive. IMHO, unless related to liver lipidosis and poor pre-partum management, feed management rarely actually leads to ketosis. It's possible, of course, but from the studies I have read, changes at parturition help to bring about ketosis in a way that's still not very well understood. Some of what we do know is that when the liver lipidosis happens, it can't oxidize fatty acids (nonesterified fatty acids) into triglycerides. A common cause is the selective catabolysis of fats over other types of energy sources. So what I'm trying to say is that genetics and pre-partum management have quite a lot to do with it, and not just silage and moisture levels. So, IMHO, I don't buy that explanation completely. Silage vs dry is more about digestibility to me and ratio of the types of proteins (bypass/RUP, NP, RDP, etc)
With temperature it's more simple. Heat loss by the body and rate of heat loss have to equal heat conditions for homeostasis to occur. High temp requires high perspiration, requires lots of water. What also helps is reduced feed intake and lower milk production. So to counteract, we balance salt levels by giving salt to animals and encourage consumption, and also make water available. It helps to maintain milk production, and also helps to keep solids up.
Anyway, yes, floc measurement is important. No, typically you only need to make 4-5 big adjustments in a year, if that. More consistent with pooled milk, and rather predictable.
Arkc (Annie)
No, it's impossible to micromanage every make. What you look for are trends and as LB says bigger somewhat predictable adjustments 4-5 times a year. If you are using store bought "pooled" milk there are less variations because of the large number of cows in the "pool". If you are using raw milk from a single cow, there are going to be constant variations.
So what to do? First of all, don't stress out. Variations in floc time are normal and expected. That's why we use the flocculation method. Just use a consistent floc multiplier and everything will be fine. Assume that you are making a cheese and using a multiplier of 3 as an easy example. With a floc time of 10 minutes you would let the curds setup for 30 minutes (3x10). With a floc time of 15 minutes the curds should setup for 45 minutes (3x15). That will compensate for the variation in floc time.
You could test a small batch and then extrapolate, but that's really overkill. Keep it simple. Test the floc time every time you make cheese, take notes, and adjust accordingly on your next make. For example, I like a floc time of about 15 minutes, so when I see my floc time trending down (less time to floc) I will add less rennet the next time. When I see it trending up (more time) I add more rennet to the next batch. The adjustments are usually very small but can magnify over time if you become complacent and don't do the floc test.
I absolutely agree with Pav on measuring. Teaspoon or tablespoon measurements are really inconsistent and inaccurate for fluids. There's no such thing as a "level" teaspoon with liquids. A syringe is good, but I use small graduated cylinders marked in ml. Ideally you want a measuring device that is as close as possible to the volume that you need, so I have 5, 10, 25, 50 and 100 ml cylinders. Cheap and easy to find on EBay. On small batches, you can also count drops.
Aren't flocc times different for different cheese? Does the following quote mean that you like
a flocc time of 15 minutes for all cheeses?
"For example, I like a floc time of about 15 minutes,"/i]
Thanks for your answers,
annie
Thanks.
I was always under the impression that rennet was not doubled. And I guess it really is not. Many recipes use the same amount for 2-4 gallons.
I am doing a 6 gallon batch today, I will use ml instead, yup got lots of syringes.
I will let you know how it works out.
Steff, I can't emphasize enough that recipe books are all wrong. How can they suggest that you use the same amount of rennet for 2 or 4 gallons, twice the amount of milk and the same rennet??? The recipe books are simplistic and most will not give you consistent results. Again, that's why you should use the flocculation method.
Arkc - Every cheese uses a different floc multiplier, but floc time should stay relatively consistent for MOST cheeses. The multiplier that you use is a personal preference and not an exact science. Short floc times can lead to bitter flavors, so I have standardized the cheeses that I make at 15 minutes (or in the neighborhood). That also works well with acidity and pH curves for my cheeses. If the curds set really fast, then the cheese doesn't have enough time to develop the proper acidity. Too slow and you can over shoot the pH targets at cutting and draining.
I do not make bloomy rind or soft cheeses, so I can't speak to their needs. I'm sure Pav can offer some constructive advice.
Quote from: SailorConQuesoToo slow and you can over shoot the pH targets at cutting and draining.
Hadn't thought of this, Sailor. I'm sticking with Beauforts for the foreseeable future (with the occasional reblochon make, so we don't go nuts waiting). I know the Beaufort AOC points to up to 25 minutes, and I get the reasoning behind a longer floc; I've gotten really satisfying results with the curd texture in the vat shooting for, and generally achieving, about 20 minutes (the last several have varied between 19:10-19:50 minutes). That said, because of adventitious meso SLABs in my milk, I do find I'm getting a much faster ripening, and acid curve, than I would really like.
My bent is probably known, and that is to a longer, slower everything; I see, though, that as usual in nature, I've got competing forces at play here, and your above notion is really helpful, many thanks. I'll shoot for a floc for somewhere around 12-15 minutes, and a total renneting of 36-45 minutes, over the hour of my last (and intended future) makes.
Cheese to you. :)
Sailor,
I have changed dairies. From a Holstein mix herd (milk abrout 3%) at about 5 or 6 days old
to a Jersey milk about 2 days old. Both milks are raw. I had been making cheeses
with the first dairy for several years. My recipes were reliable for this milk.
You can imagine what this has done to my recipes. The last debacle, (my most reliable recipe)
was a triple cream that took only 8 minutes for flocc but cut like a lactic curd and drained WAY long.
What can I do to slow down flocc time?
Annie
Quote from: arkc on May 16, 2011, 02:47:20 PM
What can I do to slow down flocc time?
Annie, the simple answer is, "Use less rennet" and keep reducing or adjusting until it's within range. Jersey is definitely very different from Holstein.
Paul - Cheese is definitely a balance of competing natural forces. When using raw milk with naturally occurring SLABs, you need to reduce the amount of starter bacteria that you use, generally by about 20% or so. If you are going to do long floc times, your starter needs are going to be even less. Otherwise there will be too many bacteria producing too much acid, too quickly. Reducing starter will slow things down, but the pH curve is still a bit unpredictable with the unknown and variable natural strains. If you heat your milk slowly, the natural SLABs can become more dominant by the time you add your starter.
As a practical example, I really like the flavors that Aroma B brings out in some cheeses. But it's a pain to deal with because of the slow acidification and then BAM, it jumps from 6.1 to 5.8 really fast. My 35 gallon makes call for a little less than a 1/2 gallon of Mother Culture at 2%. So, I will typically use 1/3 Ma-11 as a primary acidifier and 2/3 of the Aroma B to bring out the aromatic flavors. I shoot for a floc of 15 minutes because I feel that is a nice balance with the pH curves that I see. The point is, by using a custom blend of cultures, you can control the rate of early acidification. You can also adjust ratios to change the flavor profiles for a particular style of cheese. Once you find a ratio (bacterial recipe if you will) you stick with it. And of course, all of this is equally influenced by temperature because various strains have thermal sweet spots where they are the most active.
So, slow and long is good, but that has to be balanced with everything else going on.
Thanks for the cheese. I appreciate that.
Sailor,
What you said about less rennet makes sense, except that the last curd cut like a
lactic and was very fragile like a lactic. Even less rennet would make it soup.
But what you said in the next paragraph makes sense also!
QuotePaul - Cheese is definitely a balance of competing natural forces. When using raw milk with naturally occurring SLABs, you need to reduce the amount of starter bacteria that you use, generally by about 20% or so. If you are going to do long floc times, your starter needs are going to be even less. Otherwise there will be too many bacteria producing too much acid, too quickly. Reducing starter will slow things down, quote]
Quote
What if I reduce the starter instead?
annie
Thanks, Ed, lots to think on. Most immediately, I know I've been pretty ginger on the heating-up period, as my larger batches are direct-fired in Vollrath, but now it occurs to me that again, I'm probably saving one grace yet losing another, because it's pretty clear that by the time I hit strike temp for my added SLABs, the indigenous mesos have gone to town.
What you've said makes perfect sense - will try to balance out my concern for protein denaturation from too aggressive a heating-in, with my (probably, greater) concern to ensure a consistent ripening and early acidification. Your second paragraph, too, brings me to think more deeply on what I'm after, and what I should be expecting, given the conditions I'm now playing in.
Many thanks again - a really keen and helpful post. :)
Paul, this is just from my personal experience, but I feel like there is not much flavor difference between a 14-15 min floc and a 20 min floc. I did a tomme trial a while back to try and understand my tradeoffs and what I did was check for rennet amount only (to influence floc), and then did same rennet but at .5 differences at rennet pH. I found no major organoleptic differences (I didn't run it in a mass spec or sds page) between just minor changes in rennet so long as it was more than 10-12 minutes, and less than 18-20. Where I did find a difference is when I loaded up on rennet for an 8 min floc, or when I was less than 6.45 or more than 6.6 at rennetting. Beyond that, so long as I hit the drain markers (and I adjusted stir schedule to have moisture and drain pH coincide), and salt markers, it came out pretty much the same.
So now what I tend to do across the board for most cheeses, is about the same as Sailor. I will rennet at around 6.5, +- .1 depending on cheese (except most semi-lactics), and I aim for a time to floc of around 15 minutes. I feel like this gives me a good all-around balance of acid development while using a normal 1-1.5% inoculation, as well as make time and time in mold before brine.
I understand the need for authenticity for beaufort, but in my personal experience, it's been about the same so long as I've been around 15 mins.
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I use the recommended dosage of 90ml per 1000lbs of milk.
I use the attached spreadsheet to calculate my required ammount per make.
Don't want to hijack Steff's thread, just wanted to say thanks, gents, and to pose a couple scenarios as a reasonableness test. Please bear with me, folks – not trying to be abstruse, just trying to get a workable set of actions going forward.
The given is my milk. It is coming in pretty low, lately, a consistent 6.62. It's also got its indigenous flora.
Given these things, I know I don't have as much wiggle room as I did with my previous milk: As I'm doing Beaufort, and given this meso flora, I know I have to do everything I can to get my thermos rocking as quickly as possible, to prevent an out of balanced tilt towards the autochthonous mesos. It's difficult, I realize, particularly after reading Sailor's apt post: with a slow ramp up to thermo strike temp, my mesos have, I''m sure, been rocking already, like crazy.
So, after chatting through some strategy with Pav, and because I know the mesos are in there working really quickly, I've been pulling back my usual ΔpH of 0.1-0.12, to 0.05-0.075, and pulling back my rennet dosing to 3.2 ml for 6 gallons milk to keep the floc time relatively constant (meaning, aware I've got some fast acting acidifiers, and aware I need a ΔpH of at least 0.05, I "sacrificed" rennet dosing to keep my floc time relatively extended, a desired goal. Hope this is making sense).
After further thought, it seems to me, that I really am pretty tied in terms of my culture dosings: I can't slow things down by dropping back on the thermos, else my mesos will run the show, not something I want in my alpine, and though I could get my thermos in and working faster by shortening the temp ramp up, I don't know how fast I can get up to thermo SLAB strike temp, without risking frying my milk protein.
So, I have to rely on "fixing" things at a relatively higher renneting pH, a quicker floc, and shorter overall renneting period.
So far, with the new milk, if I've been happy with my curds (don't know whether it's more practice, or better colloidal Ca retention for some reason other than technique, but what I call the "dolphin flipper" elasticity of the cooked curds has been really, really nice), I'm still getting fast acid drops. I now seriously wonder if I've always been shooting too low, perhaps, in rennet dosing (for comparison, Wayne, I never dosed more than 3.1ml for 5 gallons, and, wanting to dial it back for my current milk's acidity, 3.2 for 6 gallons).
So:
Let's presume a 6.62 again in my milk. I think what I'll try for is a ΔpH for renneting of 0.1 to 6.52, and Wayne, based on your rennet dosing, trying again at a standard rate, or 4.64 ml/6 gallons. I would hope this would bring me back from my 20+/- minutes floc to 12-15 min., yet still realize a gentler acid curve through the make and drain.
I might also try (again, assuming a starting milk pH of 6.62) a ΔpH of 0.05, rennet at 6.57, but dosing a bit back on the renneting, say, 4.0 ml/6 gal. I'd expect a faster floc than 20 min., but on the longer end of 12-20 min.; with a more manageable acidification than my 20 min. floc, and consequent longer renneting period.
Sorry for the length, and any confusion from poor articulation of thoughts; and Steff, I apologize for any hijacking that this might constitute. I just find what Sailor and Pav are saying is really fundamental, an important key into underlying principles, with good, practical import, so I hope I've understood correctly. (And Wayne, too, thanks, man, for the rennet dosing pdf – somewhere along the line I've just plain forgotten the "normal" dosing rate).
Arkc - If I had a milk that was curding like a lactic, I would try adding some CaCl2. I have found that helpful with Holstein, but generally not necessary with Jersey. Worth a try though.
Paul - I always shoot for a ΔpH of .1 or somewhere around 6.5 at rennet. I find that any less acidity will not give as strong of a curd. IMHO 6.62 to start is not low. One other trick I do is to add starter well before the milk reaches working temp. If you are shooting for a start of 86F, add your starter at 76F (or whatever) so they can compete on a level playing field with the native bacteria. You may need to reduce the amount of starter to avoid over acidification by rennet time. The trick is timing and quantification so you still hit the same ΔpH. Again, this is especially helpful if you are heating milk too slowly.
I feel the need to point out that native bacteria in other parts of the world are on target with traditional makes. Even Propionic is an indigenous gut flora, so Swiss types can be made with little or no additional culture added. However, that's not necessarily the case with our cows. Our native SLABs and adjunct bacteria will definitely add to the complexity of a cheese but may not produce the desired results. So without microbial testing, I prefer to deal with known strains, with predictable outcomes. Customers may love a particular cheese, but they expect close to the same cheese when they buy again.
Quote from: SailorConQuesoIf you are shooting for a start of 86F, add your starter at 76F (or whatever) so they can compete on a level playing field with the native bacteria.
Great notion, thanks, Sailor, will give it a try.
Quote from: SailorConQuesoYou may need to reduce the amount of starter to avoid over acidification by rennet time. The trick is timing and quantification so you still hit the same ΔpH. Again, this is especially helpful if you are heating milk too slowly.
OK, I'll try to tease some combination of adding in my desired SLAB earlier, heating perhaps just a bit faster, and tweaking my desired thermo SLAB inoculation between 0.75% and 1%, to get on target.
One thing I haven't done, and need to do, is measure the milk pH or TA, at other stages - between p/u and thermo strike temp. I know what I have as a starting point, and what I get immediately after adding in the SLAB culture, but it would be helpful to watch the meso drop during heating up, too, to see just what kind of action I'm dealing with. Great help, thank you again.
Quote from: SailorConQuesoI feel the need to point out that native bacteria in other parts of the world are on target with traditional makes. Even Propionic is an indigenous gut flora, so Swiss types can be made with little or no additional culture added. However, that's not necessarily the case with our cows. Our native SLABs and adjunct bacteria will definitely add to the complexity of a cheese but may not produce the desired results. So without microbial testing, I prefer to deal with known strains, with predictable outcomes. Customers may love a particular cheese, but they expect close to the same cheese when they buy again.
OK, gotcha, hadn't thought of this - thanks. Pav and I have earlier traded some exchanges on this - I had thought to thermalize the milk, to get to some base threshold for consistency's sake, but because I'm truly blown away by the qualities of this milk - I've seen the paddocks, know what they're eating, never have I seen such an idyllic foraging setup - I decided I want to do everything I can to accommodate this milk, wrap my techniques, choices around the milk, rather than the other way around. I have to do some thinking on this....it may mean abandoning an alpine, or thermophilic make, and just trying something that stays in the mesophilic range, with no added SLABs at all to see what I end up with. I hope not, to be honest, because I'd love to see what kind of "Beaufort d'alpage" I can get, off of this native milk. But I hear you, and especially down the road, if moving commercial as I intend, I may have to accommodate the ideal to the native hand I'm dealt. We'll see.
Thanks again, Sailor. A ton of help, and very much appreciated.
Paul - you probably won't see much of an initial pH drop from the native bacteria because they are relatively few in numbers. That's why many traditional makes even let the milk sit overnight. Takes time to build up a functional population. When bacteria are actively reproducing, their population doubles every 20 minutes. That's fast but relatively insignificant for several hours if there is a limited population to begin with. And this opens up a whole can of worms for risk from coliforms and other contaminants. IMHO, slow acidification is rarely a good thing.
Regarding your thermo cheeses, the mesos still play a very important role including acid production in the beginning. Then yes, as you heat to higher thermo temperatures, they start to die off. But, at that point you will have millions of bacteria that release enzymes into the mix that play a very important role in proteolysis, long term aging, texture and flavor.
OK, gotcha, thanks, Sailor. Just wasn't sure what a lag phase should really look like (as I've told Pav, I do not know bacterias at all, only yeast behavior, from brewing. Much the same, I'm finding out, but wasn't sure if it's possible to make an appreciable difference by changing the rate of heating up, in terms of the main meso metabolism. Given I am a freak about getting back and getting it in the vat and heating, I'm guessing, basically, nothing much can be changed, except to get my thermos in early, as you suggested, and shorten the renneting period.
So, would you call this a reasonable approach, then: Presuming once again a 6.62 milk pH, dose in at 1% thermo SLABs, allow a ΔpH of 0.1 to 6.52; rennet in at 4.6 ml/6 gallons, aim for 12-15 min floc and a total of 36-46 minutes renneting; hope to cut at 6.45 or so, and hoop at 6.3, with a 12 hour drop to 5.4-5.4. If I find I'm still screaming too fast on an acid drop during the cooking and drain period, back off thermo SLAB to %0.78, at the lowest.
I suspect this drain pH curve is just an ideal, and I won't achieve it, given my indigenous mesos. But at least the thermo SLAB dosing and renneting aspect - would you call this a decent strategy trial, going forward?
Your strategy sounds reasonable, but you are throwing out some specifics that I see as variables. Therefore I can't give you a definitive yes.
For example - I can't presume a start of 6.62 or a rennet pH of 6.52. These are highly variable especially with raw milk. Your rennet dosage is variable for a dozen reasons that I can think of - type, age, milk, temp,..... Where do you calculate the 36-46 set time? If you are 12-15 for floc with a multiplier of 3 that would be 36-45. Minor difference, but I'm shooting for clarity. If you are still talking about Beaufort, I use a multiplier of 3.5. How in the world did you come up with a 0.78% dose of Mother Culture "at the lowest"? How would you even measure that? A gram scale?
The cut pH is not really significant. It's nice to know what's going on and confirm the dropping pH, but with the floc method you are going to cut at a given time - regardless of the pH. So you really don't have much control over that. The drain pH is a different matter entirely. That's a critical time when you remove the whey and effectively cut off a big part of the food supply for the bacteria. That puts the breaks on, doesn't stop, but slows things down at the right time. It's really simple. Take pH measurements and drain when ready. If the pH hasn't dropped enough, just wait. Same thing with hooping. So ultimately the pH curve drives the dynamics of acid production, but you are in the drivers seat and need to change direction at the appropriate turn signals. The native mesos are simply a part of the driving force, and do not change when to cut, drain or hoop. Think of it like driving a car with a 90 mile an hour wind at your rear. You may go faster, but you still take the same turns along the way.
Sailor, posted a response in the middle of the night that was unfortunately lost when the site crashed momentarily. thanks, will repost later.
At the moment, I'm also dealing with another $%$$#$%#$# equipment issue - unbeknownst to me, my thermometer had stuck on 80F - so I kept heating the milk, couldn't figure out why it was taking so long to change (the therm crept 1-3 degrees - against tension), until it popped to 104F. So if I had mesos issues before, god knows what I have know. Fed up.
Anyone recommend a relatively inexpensive, digital thermometer?
I use a Redi Check and have been extremely happy. It's a little slow to reach final temp but very reliable. I have 2 plus an analog dial for backups.
The first one I bought I paid $79.95. Here it is on E-bay for just $21.88 including shipping. This is a real steal so I would get 2 and you will have a spare.
Thermometer Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Oil-Candy-Thermometer-BRAND-NEW-SEALED-BOX-/290558853342?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a6a840de#ht_5192wt_1139)
Done. Thanks, Sailor. Boy, not my day. Besides everything else, floc time came in - who knows? 8 minutes? Walked away for 1 minute to type in data to my make log, came back, and it had already flocc'ed. Milk=6.64, toasted the mesos at 105ish, so ripening was much slower - about an hour, but missed my target there, to, of 6.54 and ended up at 6.50; pitched rennet at 4.6ml/6 gallons, 8 minutes (could be less, could be slightly more...), floc.
This one goes down to the make sump. I'll eat it, but will be starting over as soon as possible.
Quote from: ArnaudForestier on May 18, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
Anyone recommend a relatively inexpensive, digital thermometer?
I have also had thermometer issues. I have 4. Only one boils at the right temperature. If they aren't accurate what is the point. On Sailor's recommendation I ordered the one on ebay. But I am also going to order this
http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/espresso-supply/11170/p380204.aspx (http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/espresso-supply/11170/p380204.aspx)
It can evidently be calibrated. I like that.
Susan
Susan - Most all of the analog dial thermometers can be calibrated. The problem is that they are just as easy to UNcalibtrate. The only way I trust an analog is to calibrate it every time and that's a pain in the neck.
For analog meters, what I often do is calibrate, and then seal the nut with glue so it doesn't move. Makes for a trusty, cheap extra thermometer.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on May 19, 2011, 01:21:07 AM
Susan - Most all of the analog dial thermometers can be calibrated. The problem is that they are just as easy to UNcalibtrate. The only way I trust an analog is to calibrate it every time and that's a pain in the neck.
Sailor,
So the digital are less likely to be a problem? So far I haven't had a digital thermometer that is correct. I have 2 that will alarm at the right temp. Which is nice. But they aren't accurate. I'm guessing if you use the one on ebay you find it reliable, so I ordered it. But with these digital, if it isn't right it is just junk. At least the other I can correct/calibrate. That was my thinking.
Susan
I did jump on the digital deal (thanks, Sailor), as well as your analog from the restaurant supply (thanks, Susan). I plan on using both. So disappointing, yesterday, to have everything in place and only realize well into the game that I'd been heating the milk to well past 100F. But then, yesterday I think the gremlins were my antic, "grinning at my state, and laughing at my pomp...."; so much was screwed up, and realized after that due to the make before this one (itself a disaster, due to Kadova issues and latter-hour attempts to remedy them), my St. Paulin follower was distorted; couldn't figure out why I was getting a lopsided wheel, when the piston arm was perfectly aligned and I was watching carefully. The follower. So after all was said and done, I walked away to clean up during one of the press periods, and the piston and follower imploded, yielding a radically lopsided wheel.
<<Sigh>>. Not making again, until my "mis en place" is truly "mis," and truly "en place."
edit: I've become conscious that I have hijacked Steff's thread - sorry, Steff. Closing my comments, now.
Just a couple data points - got the two Redi-Check's in the mail today, and in boiling H20 as we speak. Performing really well - within 0.1 of each other, at 211.6 and 211.83, respectively. Here in Madison, b.p. of water should be about 210.4, but I can live with it. Great buy, thanks again, Sailor. And Susan, your analog is on its way as well. We should be good. Thanks, guys. :)
Quote from: susanky on May 15, 2011, 06:09:09 PM
Quote from: mtncheesemaker(Pam) on May 15, 2011, 06:00:29 PM
Sometimes, when I don't have floc within 20 minutes, I have added another little bit of rennet to speed things up. I'm wondering now if that is a no-no?
Did anyone ever really answer this questions? Excellent discussion. Learning so much. I love this forum.
QuoteSometimes, when I don't have floc within 20 minutes, I have added another little bit of rennet to speed things up. I'm wondering now if that is a no-no?
Did anyone ever really answer this questions? Excellent discussion. Learning so much. I love this forum.
The problem is that it will complicate the cheesemaking in some ways. One, it is hard to tell when the gel point is when the set is weak. So you might add more rennet, and stir it in, and what if it gels as you are adding the extra?
Two, it is challenging then to really time when you should cut based on math, and you have to rely on your experience to know when to cut. It's possible, but a little tricky. Overall, if you have no set, I don't see another good way about it. The longer you wait, the more acid builds up, which for many cheeses is not desirable.
My suggestion is if you don't get a good rennet curd then use the batch to make a lactic cheese (like American Neufchatel/light Cream Cheese) by leaving it at warm temp overnight to let lactic acid build and get a lactic acid curd (which is much softer than a rennet coagulated curd).
Adding more rennet after first addition like linuxboy says can result in a mess. In my first Camembert I forgot to add the P candidum mold, so I stirred it in a few minutes after adding the rennet, which destroyed the curd set, my records and pictures here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,271.0.html).