OK, have tossed around some numbers. Assuming a 30 gallon vat need, any thoughts, ideas, suggestions on a cheap, dependable vat idea, of this scale, that would pass muster with most U.S. food inspectors?
"Cheap and dependable" - in the family of: "Cheap, good quality, or quickly acquired; You can pick 2 of these 3." So, given time, a good, cheap vat idea, that may take some scrounging.
I remember reading about a couple of people using cut off beer kegs. I'm not sure how big this would be. How are you planning on heating it, or you looking for a vat with heat?
Jaspar
PS check this out http://www.kitchenfantasy.com/shopping_cart/stockpots.html (http://www.kitchenfantasy.com/shopping_cart/stockpots.html)
Jaspar, thanks. I'm actually talking about a commercial option, that would pass inspector-muster, but don't need top of the line, automatic, etc., esp. at this scale. I am weighing
direct heat, but don't know that I've seen the option as allowable in cheese facilities (have seen it in breweries....I just don't know on creameries) and fully manual op - e.g., a cheese harp, fire, and
that's it. On the other hand, I do have some physical issues, and so may have to make accommodations accordingly, so perhaps a simple agitation system for stirring, once the curd
is cut. I know in the Alps, which is where my desires tend to, I've seen a hybrid of both - direct fired, with either gas or wood, and an old workhorse motor and agitation paddle. Again,
not sure how that flies here, in the States.
You should check out my setup
Boone Creek Creamery (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4661.0.html)
I use this every day and couldn't be happier with the setup. This week I made Parmesan, my Abbey Road, Cheshire, Asiago, and a Castle Blue (which isn't pressed). The only major change I have made is increasing the heating element to 6000w. This is not common at your local hardware store but easy to find on E-bay or by special order at a plumbing supply house. I spent less than $15 plus About $6 shipping for mine.
I have also added a stainless pump with a foot operated switch to transfer whey, drain the "vat", and help with utility tasks. BIG help and eliminates a lot of the grunt work when cleaning up.
Even if your Milk Safety Inspector approved of it, the Fire Marshal would probably never allow direct heat or open flames.
FYI - that biggest pot that Japar pointed to is a good deal. A little bigger than mine too - damn. ;)
Thanks a bunch, Sailor - will take a look!
On the direct flame, <<Sigh>>, I had thought so.There's only one brewery I know of that did a direct fire, Three Floyd's. To this day, I still don't know how they got away with that beast, a jet flame across an open channel, to the side of the
kettle.
Edit: You know, I hadn't looked at this in a while, Sailor. I remember how elegant your make room was, but that was early on in my time here - really happy to see it again, thanks for pointing me your way. :)
Edit, part II: Jaspar, or Sailor, do you know if those stockpots are aluminum or copper clad-bottomed? I guess it wouldn't make a difference, if going with water bath or jacketing, but just curious.
With manual stir, and not self-contained? Meaning you have to recirculate water to heat it, you can get a used tilting kettle at auction for $300-$500 in the 30-40 gal size.
Had forgotten about these - great idea too, thanks, Pav.
Also, if you want to stir, get a tilting kettle with lid and buy a surplus stirrer. Drill a hole in the lid, and rig up a way to mount the stirrer and motor to some sort of support arm. Put a variable speed control on it and call it done. And cut with a harp, use the agitator paddle so you don't stand over the vat. Not expensive.
I have a Microdairy design. I checked out the kettle but I would still need to redo the lid add an agitator, buy thermometers get chart recorder. I would need some one to do the work and then hope it passed inspection. By the time I was down it cost the same as a new complete unit .
Frank and his wife are extremely accommodating.
www.microdairy.com (http://www.microdairy.com).
Not sure about cheap but worth every penny.
The 100 qt. is Stainless steel clad
Quote from: Jaspar on July 02, 2011, 10:23:55 AM
The 100 qt. is Stainless steel clad
What I mean to say, is the sandwiching ss on either side of a better conductive material, e.g., copper or aluminum?
@Steff: Steff, I've heard good things about the company as well, notably, in terms of their service after sale. I think for me, coming in small, I want to come in as cheaply as possible, in the event
I find people are dying so badly for my brilliance ( ::)), I'd have cause to expand. So I think Sailor's, Jaspar's or Pav's notions are likely steering my course. But thanks very much for
the suggestion. Glad it's working well for you.
@Pav: thanks for the add'l thought, motor with a rheostat of some sort. Very feasible. I also like Sailor's design a good deal - a nice, tight make room, it seems. Good options, gents, thanks.
While I'm here: presuming 6 cows. I know Gianaclis Caldwell, in her book, discusses "more than 3" cows as a possible tipping point, between portable milkers and buckets, and
a pipeline system, in the parlor. I've no real idea of costs, for a small, mostly sweat-equity built, pipeline parlor. Any thoughts on cost-benefit for 6 cows, between the two systems?
I ask, because though I know there's little labor difference between a 30 and a 300 gallon batch of cheese; but there's a tremendous difference in time and labor between 1 cow, and 6. So,
any thoughts, much appreciated.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on July 01, 2011, 10:02:17 PM
IThe only major change I have made is increasing the heating element to 6000w.
Why wouldn't you go with 3X2000watt elements, instead of 1X6000watt element?
I tend to like multiple elements, as i can bring more elements online as required.
But I would love to get your thoughts on this as I am completely rebuilding everything.
i have several ss kettles that i don't use and would love to find a home for them. 40 to 60 gallons some with full jackets. groen models. vic
Wayne - when I want heat, I want it fast and hot then shut down. The single 6000w was inexpensive and easy to install. I use a digital Ronco controller with a 220 relay to handle the amperage. Incorporating a second element would mean adding a second controller. If I were going to do that, I would add a second 6000w, but I don't see that as necessary. The only time that might come in handy is heating thermos quickly to 125F or so.
Quote
While I'm here: presuming 6 cows. I know Gianaclis Caldwell, in her book, discusses "more than 3" cows as a possible tipping point, between portable milkers and buckets, and
a pipeline system, in the parlor. I've no real idea of costs, for a small, mostly sweat-equity built, pipeline parlor. Any thoughts on cost-benefit for 6 cows, between the two systems?
Hauling all that milk isn't that much fun after a while, but not terrible with 6. You can also do a hybrid, and install a line, but not pump into a tank, and instead filter in line and pump into buckets. There are in-between systems, not just a simple choice between a portable milker, and a full pipeline.
Pav, having a tough time envisioning piping into buckets, or if into buckets, how that would be an improvement over a portable milker - as you'd still be lugging buckets around. Sorry - can you go into this a bit more?
@Vic, thanks - still in the planning stage, so not close enough to buy at this point. Thanks for the heads up, though.
Edit: Pav, are you talking about hooking cows up to a pipeline, but using a portable milker to roll to each cow, in its stanchion?
No, you do a pipeline system with individual takeoffs, or you pipe it all into a small receiving tank, and from the receiving tank manually take off into buckets that are sitting either on a pallet, and you use a pallet lift (manual hydraulic one), or even a makeshift furniture dolly that costs $60.
Portable milker is all self-contained. I'm talking about having all your hoses and everything in a very small, new zealand style parlor with your milk and air lines, with a central vacuum, but instead of spending the big bucks on a holding tank, you go with buckets, and you haul the buckets to your vat. With a holding tank, you'd need to pump to the vat, or to have some sort of portable holding tank.
Just saves you 3-5K, that's all, by doing a hybrid system, and lets you upgrade later if you want. Buckets are expensive, but 4-5 good buckets are cheaper than a tank. You can also go ghetto and milk into a beer keg or other similar food safe contraption (if they let you).
Arnaud, I do not know where in the states you are but here in NY none of that would have passed. I suggest you talk to the Dept of Agriculture for your state to get the regulations before you start thinking about a system. I could not even imagine them giving the OK without a locked agitator.
Quote from: linuxboy on July 03, 2011, 07:29:01 AM
No, you do a pipeline system with individual takeoffs, or you pipe it all into a small receiving tank, and from the receiving tank manually take off into buckets that are sitting either on a pallet, and you use a pallet lift (manual hydraulic one), or even a makeshift furniture dolly that costs $60.
By small receiving tank, presume you just mean, a simple tank, no cooling or agitation, etc. - this distinguishing it from a small bulk tank, yes?
Quote from: linuxboy on July 03, 2011, 07:29:01 AMPortable milker is all self-contained. I'm talking about having all your hoses and everything in a very small, new zealand style parlor with your milk and air lines, with a central vacuum, but instead of spending the big bucks on a holding tank, you go with buckets, and you haul the buckets to your vat. With a holding tank, you'd need to pump to the vat, or to have some sort of portable holding tank.
Sorry, Pav, still having a bit of trouble envisioning a central system with individual buckets. Are we talking one cow at a time, hooked up to the pipe one at a time, piped down the line, into an individual tote, and you then start the next cow?
Quote from: linuxboy on July 03, 2011, 07:29:01 AMJust saves you 3-5K, that's all, by doing a hybrid system, and lets you upgrade later if you want. Buckets are expensive, but 4-5 good buckets are cheaper than a tank. You can also go ghetto and milk into a beer keg or other similar food safe contraption (if they let you).
I'm all about ghetto, friend. So count me intrigued, just trying to visualize.
Quote from: steffb503 on July 03, 2011, 10:11:20 AM
Arnaud, I do not know where in the states you are but here in NY none of that would have passed. I suggest you talk to the Dept of Agriculture for your state to get the regulations before you start thinking about a system. I could not even imagine them giving the OK without a locked agitator.
You mean, on the vat, a jury-rigged agitator, yes? (not a bulk tank, with agitator).
Edit: Here's all I found, from WI's guidelines:
Quote3. Mechanical Agitators
Agitator drives and shafts should be shielded and/or sealed to protect the product from
condensate or lubricants.
On bulkheaded tanks where the agitator motor is located outside the production area,
the agitator shaft should be equipped with a sanitary seal.
Agitators should be readily cleanable and easily sanitized.
I knew I'd have to have a food-grade weld or other means to seal it properly, but outside of this, I can't see why the agitator wouldn't be allowed. Can you talk about what you mean by "locked" agitator?
From another thread:
Quote from: linuxboy on October 22, 2010, 08:25:28 PM
Just to add a thought, I feel that old world traditions and approaches to making cheese made for better cheese. One of those approaches was to combine evening and morning milk. There was no such thing really as a storage tank, and you couldn't make cheese twice a day most of the time, so you would make it every day in the morning after combining the milks. But, that evening milk sat for 6-12 hours, subject to bacterial action. So it would be pre-acidified naturally and have natural bacterial populations. In my milking, if I leave milk in the cellar at 55-60 from the evening milking, the pH is usually .1-.3 lower (from 6.45 to 6.3 most of the time, goat milk, different for cow). When you add this preacidified milk, what you got were huge colonies of bacteria right away, and some of the protein (casein) had solubilized.
An old post, but thinking on this very thing. Re-reading Paul Kindstedt's book, on the etiology of cheese practices among French alpine, bloomy-rind, and smear-ripened makers, he posits the notion that with the Northern plains makers of bloomy rinds, largely on farms with one or two cows, they had to do this very thing, for practical reasons: combine evening and morning milks, and make cheese once daily, or whenever enough milk was gathered to make their cheeses. The result is a cheese that experiences the classic bloomy-rind acid curve, a quick drop down over 24 hours.
With monks in monasteries, with larger, concentrated herds, they had ample milk to make cheese immediately on drawing; same as alpagistes, with their herds, making their hard, alpine wheels twice daily. The result is a cheese with a low integral SLAB load, and a long, slow acid curve down.
I'm looking into this, as I'm running some numbers and scenarios. I estimate with 6 cows doing 12000 lbs yearly, I'd have enough milk to do close to 20 lbs hard cheese daily - but that's if combining evening and morning milks. Obviously, doing cheeses in 10 lbs or under increments makes this a non-issue; but I must also admit one way I'd like to distinguish at least one of my makes - a Beaufort style - is to make it in 20 lb rounds, and not 10 lb, kadova-rounds.
Given this, absent a bulk tank, logistics start to become dicey. So, the only way I can see to do this is with a herd twice this size - 12 cows. Obviously, that introduces a whole host of other issues.
Anything obvious I'm missing from the above? Any thoughts? I suppose I could gather and keep 4 totes or so in a cooler; but any thoughts on how critical it is to the alpine styles, to do a make with every
traite, as opposed to combining milkings?
I guess if not pasteurizing for fresh cheese there is no issue. The agitator needs to lock at a certain speed for proper distribution of heat while pasteurizing. I would check with the authorities first. Have them look at the system you plan to use first. I would hate to have the system ready to go only to find out they will not pass it.
Thanks steff, very good advice, and well warranted. I've been through a restaurant opening, and agree - better before, than after. Even if plans have to go through a billion changes, heck of a lot cheaper on paper - than in, over, or under the floor. :o
The farmer I get milk from, milks 20 cows in a portable milker and is plannin. To milk 10 more without installing a pipeline. His milk is fantastic and I applaud h O0im.
Thanks, Jos. The issue I'm having is really one of managing workflow, when I'm both dairying and making cheese. I have to figure out a way to do them both - fully aware, it's a lot of work, but it's a life I want to commit to - but that said, trying to find that sweet spot between minimizing capitalization, and choosing efficient practices and means.
Pav, saw a description of the "hybrid" model you're proposing, in Gianaclis Caldwell's book. She seems to have a central vacuum, lines, bucket, etc. in the milk room, with an on-off switch easily available in the parlor, so I better get what you're talking about, now. I couldn't envision how you could basically stop a cow in the middle of her milking, having to switch between buckets, when you're remote from the bucket....but realize, duh, no cow is going to give more than a bucket at any one milking. :-[
Still trying to think on this issue of combining milkings, v. single milkings, single makes. Any thoughts on this, as mentioned above, still very much appreciated. :)
QuoteI couldn't envision how
Visit a few operations so you can see all this equipment and trace the lines in person. It's a little hard to explain without diagramming all of this out or without seeing the physical gear. It'll make sense once you can visualize the parts and how they fit together.
Single makes are possible, if you think you can do the workflow. I would combine and not drive myself crazy.
Quote from: linuxboy on July 05, 2011, 11:59:25 AM
QuoteI couldn't envision how
Visit a few operations so you can see all this equipment and trace the lines in person. It's a little hard to explain without diagramming all of this out or without seeing the physical gear. It'll make sense once you can visualize the parts and how they fit together.
Thanks, Pav. I understand. I did get a better sense, from the photo in Gianaclis's book.
Quote from: linuxboy on July 05, 2011, 11:59:25 AMSingle makes are possible, if you think you can do the workflow. I would combine and not drive myself crazy.
I guess if I could ensure an immediate crash cooling, I'd be less concerned about combining milkings. With you, I tend to think the traditional practices have their embedded reasoning - meaning, I guess, I suspect an alpine hard cheese made with absolutely fresh - from cow, to make room, immediately on milking - is going to be different from one made, using a combined milking, as done with camembert, for instance. Perhaps if I could ensure the evening milk undergoes few (if any, detectable) changes, an evening/morning make would be less of a concern for me.
last time I was over at Gianaclis's and Vern's place was 4? years ago, and I think they ran a double 4 with sheep inflations for the Nigerians, milking into 5 gal buckets that went into a freezer full of ice water (maybe glycol, not sure). Maybe e-mail her and ask for some more pics of the setup? I remember it working pretty well.
I think you're spot on with the reasoning. With modern cooling, you can achieve very consistent makes by combining milk. Bulk tank would be nice, but you can start with buckets that are chilled in a modified freezer full of glycol. And you can milk into cans that sit in plastic buckets full of ice, put buckets into freezer, and then use a small water pump to circulate the glycol all around the stainless cans, encourage that heat exchange. You could be down to 35F from 100F within an hour easily doing that. Then in the morning, blend your milks, turn on the vat, bring it to strike temp while you clean and prep, and do a nice 3-4 hour make with bulk starters. Then 2 hours for cleanup, recordkeeping, cave maintenance, and you have 2-3 hours left for herd management and chores before taking an afternoon siesta and before evening milking. It's not bad, 10-12 hour days. If you retain weekend milk or take a break for a day during the week, that's a 60 hour workweek. Very reasonable. Or you can do back-to-back makes of 2 types if you want to even out your inventory/supply chain.
Think through your cleaning/sanitation routine more than anything, that takes 70%+ of the time (as you already know). if you can do that efficiently, it's a huge time saver. I think commercial dishwashers and sanitizers are a great investment.
Great, helpful info, thanks very much, Pav, as usual. :)