This is my second effort at making a Stilton-like cheese. My first try (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7515.0.html) used a gallon of raw milk and yielded one small cheese. That cheese is just beginning to show some color.
This make uses four gallons and will give me considerably greater potential product. Two big differences:
- raw vs. P&H
- morge from Royal Blue Stilton vs. Penicillin Roquerforti culture
July 2:4 gallons Darigold P&H whole milk
½ tsp Aroma B (meso)
¼ tsp P. Roquerforti
1 tsp CACL2 in distilled water
1/16 tsp dry calf rennet dissolved in cold distilled water
Calibrated ExStick to 7 & 4
Starting pH of milk = 6.83
5:40AM heated milk to 86F and stirred in cultures.
6:30AM pH 6.80
7:30AM pH 6.78 @ 86F
8:30AM pH 6.74
9:25AM pH 6.71 @ 86F
10:30AM pH 6.60 @ 86.2F
11:30AM pH 6.48 @ 86.5F . . . anyone counting hours?
6 hours!! stirred rennet into cold (52F) distilled water.
added CACL2 and rennet, stirring.
11:33AM finished adding and stirring.
Flocculation occurred in 15 minutes.
Using a factor of 4, time to cut will be in 60 minutes @ 12:30PM.
12:30PM pH 6.18 @ 83.8F
cut to 1 inch
rested 10 minutes
12:45PM cut to pea/acorn size with whisk, stirred.
allowed to rest.
1:50PM pH 5.88 drained whey.
2:00PM pH 5.46 tested acidity at various places in curd to reach consensus.
placed lid on pot and allowed curds to rest, looking for a pH 4.6-4.8.
During this rest period, continued to drain whey as it accumulated.
5:30PM pH 4.72
at 2 tsp salt per gallon, used 8 tsp salt to mix with and mill curds.
packed lightly into two camembert molds.
extra curds were packed into small Kadova mold creating a blue puck.
Over the next several hours, flipped all molds, placing a new, folded paper towel under the mat of the mold each time. This helped to wick away departing whey.
July 5:5:00AM removed molds and attempted to smooth surfaces. Since the rind surfaces were already fairly smooth, I didn't try to make them perfectly smooth.
Placed into minicave and into the cave @ 55F for blue development.
I don't enjoy waiting the entire morning for the point at which I can add my rennet. I need to do some studying about mother cultures and pitch at a greater density. Just like back when I was brewing, the greater pitch volume...the faster fermentation begins and completes. One thing is for sure: if I had been going by time alone and didn't have a pH meter, I would have been way off out in the weeds.
Okay, PR let's see what you can do for me.
-Boofer-
Wow, that was quick!
-Boofer-
Looks great so far and I'd like to try another one sommetime.
Why didn't you try to smooth the rind more to seal it like in Stilton.org's videos (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1046.0.html)?
If my memory is correct this is a two stage cheese, first develop the paste then pierce to get the blue into the hopefully voids inside.
Looking good, Boof! Stiltons are normally made in a larger mold that Cam--it helps with the longer aging period needed to develop the paste. I don't pierce Stiltons until they are at least 5 weeks old (3#). Since your's is smaller, you may want to pierce immediately. Also, get them out of the cave and allow them to breathe at room temp at least once per week--the blue needs osygen to grow. Good luck and keep us posted--you are truly a cheese maniac! :
:D
Quote from: John (CH) on July 07, 2011, 12:25:23 AM
Why didn't you try to smooth the rind more to seal it like in Stilton.org's videos (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1046.0.html)?
I tried to do that with the back of a spoon, but the more I tried the more crumbling I got. I decided it would have to do for this make. Down the road I would remove the molds a day earlier and hopefully have a moister, more malleable curd.
Quote from: Brie on July 07, 2011, 03:30:16 AM
Looking good, Boof! Stiltons are normally made in a larger mold that Cam--it helps with the longer aging period needed to develop the paste. I don't pierce Stiltons until they are at least 5 weeks old (3#). Since your's is smaller, you may want to pierce immediately. Also, get them out of the cave and allow them to breathe at room temp at least once per week--the blue needs osygen to grow. Good luck and keep us posted--you are truly a cheese maniac! :
:D
What size mold do the other Stilton/blue cheese makers use on the forum?
I am familiar with the need to let the cheese breathe every so often, but I think I read somewhere (Francois?) that too much of that and you risk developing slipskin.
If I crack the lid inside the cave, is that effective enough? That way, the temp would be maintained and the exchange of gases could still take place.
-Boofer-
I use the small "hard cheese molds" from NE Cheesemaking. Got that idea from reading back in the voluminous blue-related archives a while back, one of the blue gurus posted about using the same one. So, ya know, I had to copy the guru. ;) Two-gallon make fills one of them to the tippy-top, with some left over to try to smoosh in after it settles some. Works really well.
http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/45-Hard-Cheese-Mold-Small-1.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/45-Hard-Cheese-Mold-Small-1.html)
I also use the 4 pound cheese mold from NE Cheesemaking--perfect for a 3 pounder!
Quote from: Brie on July 07, 2011, 11:46:09 PM
I also use the 4 pound cheese mold from NE Cheesemaking--perfect for a 3 pounder!
Yeah, I could use my Tomme mold that I use for all my 4 gallon wheels, but I wanted something smaller as a first pass so I could maybe give one or two away to my family if it turned out okay (well, better than okay.).
-Boofer-
I decided to do the first piercing yesterday. I used a small 6 inch analog thermometer. I dosed it with Star-San before I began. When I finished, there was some cheese residue on the probe and that tasted pretty good already. Here's hoping. Another three weeks and I'll redo the piercing.
-Boofer-
Quote from: Boofer on July 07, 2011, 01:24:36 PM
I tried to do that with the back of a spoon, but the more I tried the more crumbling I got. I decided it would have to do for this make. Down the road I would remove the molds a day earlier and hopefully have a moister, more malleable curd.
I found it's easier (for me at least) to do with a straight-edge knife - also covers more surface area than a simple spoon so you're done quicker. :)
Thanks for that tip. If I recall, that's what the smoothers in the Stilton video did too.
-Boofer-
That Stilton is looking very good, Boof. Within another month there will a mosaic of colors on that rind. I so enjoy watching this cheese age--it's amazing! Keep us posted!
Thanks, Brie. I'm very curious and excited about the changes I've seen so far in my first blues. With this and the Reblochons I'm currently doing, there's a whole new level of culture-al changes I'm seeing over all the hard cheeses I was doing. Pretty neat.
In the photos I snapped yesterday, I tried to capture the soft white bloom that overgrew the initial blue. Unfortunately, it seems to get lost in translation when digitized from a 3-dimensional world to a 2-dimensional one. Besides flipping them every other day and maintaining temp/humidity, should I be doing anything else in their care and feeding?
Another three weeks and they'll get pierced again, and one more final time two weeks after that.
-Boofer-
Very strange what's happening with the puck as compared to the two tall boys. I think there's less moisture in the puck. No white bloom yet.
-Boofer-
I believe the "puck" is aging faster due to the fact that it is smaller. Should have no effect, other than aging faster. So many different molds that circumferance this cheese--the white is the least of your worries. Suggest to punch it now and let that beautiful blue get inside the cheese.
Thanks, Brie. It has been pierced once already. I'm set to do it a second time next Monday. I guess you're right that it's aging faster because of its smaller size.
I am starting to see a wider range of colors in the tall boys.
-Boofer-
That looks so good Boofer! I never got Blue to grow so beautifully. I am very very impressed.
Well now that I have my family enjoying blue's, I am really interested in trying a stilton, and this thread has helped me make up my mind. These look wonderful Boofer.
BTY, where did you get those round plastic mats?
Quote from: Tea on July 20, 2011, 07:40:03 PM
BTW, where did you get those round plastic mats?
The mats are from our local crafts chain, Michael's, in the needlepoint department. They are available in sizes to accommodate camembert molds (4inch), Tomme molds(7.5inch), and different hole-density sheets 9x12inch.
-Boofer-
I pierced for the second time yesterday and they residue that came out with the skewer was very nice.
A little bit of a crack at the one end. I don't think it's major.
The puck seems to be getting softer. When I flip it, that seems apparent.
All three cheeses are fully engaged with the blue.
-Boofer-
I'm coming up to just 30 days with these cheeses. I don't see how they could possibly make it for another 60 days. Really!??
About every third day I air them out and wipe out the moisture in the minicave.
I don't know if the blues are looking good or bad. Any opinions out there?
Seems like the puck is really asking for me to slice into it. Its smaller size probably means that it will be ripe earlier than the tall boys.
-Boofer-
I would try to wait, at least on the bigger ones. 30 days isn't very long!
They look very good from over here!
Boofer they look fantastic man !!!
Can't wait to see them open!
So I've seen opinions for both sides: wrap...don't wrap.
Should I be enclosing these in foil, cheese paper, or cellophane wrap? Or is that only an option at Day 90?
There is a little bit of creamy weepage coming from the pierced ends when I go to flip them. Does that seem reasonable?
-Boofer-
Boofer they look wonderful. I don't have much experience with blues, but my blue/white are wrapped in foil on day 10, and then aged. So I am interested to know too.
Quote from: Boofer on August 10, 2011, 06:18:22 AM
So I've seen opinions for both sides: wrap...don't wrap.
Should I be enclosing these in foil, cheese paper, or cellophane wrap? Or is that only an option at Day 90?
There is a little bit of creamy weepage coming from the pierced ends when I go to flip them. Does that seem reasonable?
-Boofer-
Aging it for 90 days is overkill imo. Besides, the two big ones are not that big compared to the size of real Stilton. Since yours are way smaller, they would require less time to ripen especially the little puck. I think you should eat the little puck now, its just going to ammoniate and dry out if you age it for far too long or liquify because of the white mold. The one i made is only 38 days old and its almost as strong as Roquefort. Wrap your cheeses in tin foil if your worried about it drying out but you will halt the blue mold growth.
I get some trouble when I wrap blues maybe too early.
Moisture can't go away and rind get wet, not good.
Now I keep them in box and let them breath every day until there is not so much moisture in box, after that I let them breathe every 2 or 3 days or so.
So I can control better blues hole aging time. After cut I vac pac.
Hande
Quote from: Aris on August 13, 2011, 09:44:40 AM
Quote from: Boofer on August 10, 2011, 06:18:22 AM
wrap...don't wrap.
Since yours are way smaller, they would require less time to ripen especially the little puck. I think you should eat the little puck now, its just going to ammoniate and dry out if you age it for far too long or liquify because of the white mold.
I couldn't stand it any longer...Early this morning I cut into the puck to check on the progress. I found that some of the holes had closed up and it showed a clean channel where the skewer had penetrated but there was little to no blue in the channel. I have pierced each of the cheeses at least twice.
The paste was creamy, but not oozy, and the blue was there but not too excessive. Mild blue flavor and maybe a little over salty. The salt was 2 tsp mixed into the curds in a 2 gallon make. Overall, I am pleased with the progress at this point. I believe the tall boys will show different personalities than this puck. I am also looking forward to cutting the raw milk Stilton (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7515.0.html) I created from the slice of Royal Blue Stilton (http://www.igourmet.com/shoppe/prodview.aspx?prod=882S). That should be pretty interesting.
I decided to wrap the cut half in cheese paper to let it age a little longer. The paper is microperforated so that it does breathe somewhat.
-Boofer-
I think the reason for the minimal veining is the white mold. It made the paste soften therefore closing the crevices. Maybe next time you should pierce early, like at age 10 days.
Quote from: Aris on August 14, 2011, 11:33:34 AM
I think the reason for the minimal veining is the white mold. It made the paste soften therefore closing the crevices. Maybe next time you should pierce early, like at age 10 days.
I started the cheese on July 2, pierced on July 9 and again on July 21.
-Boofer-
Boofer, for what it is worth, the cheese looks fantastic !
for my benefit, how long did you drain the curds for ?
Quote from: Neil H on August 15, 2011, 08:31:50 AM
Boofer, for what it is worth, the cheese looks fantastic !
for my benefit, how long did you drain the curds for ?
- On Day One I was flipping every 15 minutes for the first hour, then every half hour for a couple hours, then once an hour after that.
- On Day Two, I started flipping the mold with cheese twice a day for two days.
- On Day Four I unmolded and smoothed.
- This was at room temperature in a minicave with the cover cracked so the cheese could breathe and evaporate some of the whey that seeped out.
- When I went to flip (twice a day), I'd sop up any whey that I saw and ensure the walls of the minicave were wiped down.
Hope that helps.
-Boofer-
Puck it! I think the little guy looks fine for its size, Hail to the little guys.
Quote from: Brie on August 16, 2011, 02:52:02 AM
Puck it! I think the little guy looks fine for its size, Hail to the little guys.
Works for me! I am looking forward to seeing the insides of the tall boys now.
I'm also interested in trying a Cambozola soon. I'm wondering if anyone has had success with that style. I looked back a couple years earlier and saw John had enjoyed making it. ;)
-Boofer-
John and I were trying the cambozola a few year back, but I never could get the blue on the inside, which is why I am giving the blue/white a go first and see what I learn from that. I think because the paste is soft you need to pierce more than once to get a good internal growth, so I am trying that with these too to see what happens. Once I think I am understanding the process a little better, I am going to give the cambozola or maybe a double cream brie with some blue a go and see if I have any success.
Okay, I had a weak moment this morning. ::)
I decided I REALLY wanted to see inside one of the tall boys. I know, I know...they are just around the 60 day mark. The rind was so shrunken that I thought it was all just drying up into a big cheese raisin.
As you can see, the paste is quite moist...even oozy in places. What a surprise. What I also discovered was that the piercings had closed up for the most part. I sliced off a little for my lunch, wrapped the other pieces in breathable cheese paper, and put them back in the minicave for continued affinage.
I took this as a tip to re-pierce the other tall boy, in hopes of gaining additional bluing over the next 30 days.
At lunch, I enjoyed the sliver of blue along with a piece of the Reblochon I had cut previously. With apple and orange slices, they were absolutely wonderful. Creamy and gooey. Oh yeah, I may have something here! ;)
It seems more like a Fourme d'Ambert (http://www.igourmet.com/shoppe/prodview.aspx?prod=432S) rather than a Stilton, realizing the requirements to actually be a Stilton.
-Boofer-
Wow Boofer! That looks exceptionally good. Well done!
- Jeff
Quote from: JeffHamm on September 01, 2011, 01:12:08 AM
Wow Boofer! That looks exceptionally good. Well done!
- Jeff
Thanks, Jeff.
A couple days ago I received an order from iGourmet that included Fourme d'Ambert and Royal Blue Stilton. How fortuitous! I see a small cheese sampling in store for me and the missus this weekend. Of course I will be reporting my tasteful findings with pics. :)
If I am to believe the stated affinage for Fourme d'Ambert of two months, should I just vacuum-seal those cut pieces rather than have them wrapped in cheese paper? I think they're still a little too moist. Perhaps a little time cracked open as they are will benefit them. Opinions?
I will continue to age the second tall boy now that I've re-pierced it.
-Boofer-
How's the flavor? How strong is the blue flavor?
Quote from: Aris on September 01, 2011, 11:15:54 AM
How's the flavor? How strong is the blue flavor?
Very mild blue flavor, which is okay for my tastebuds. As you get closer to the rind it becomes stronger of course. Very creamy though.
-Boofer-
Sampled my second blue effort this morning with fresh mango and coffee.
This cheese can't really be even mentioned in the same breath as Stilton. I thought it might be closer to a Fourme d'Ambert. This is more of a Cambozola...a creamy blue, although I didn't start out using a Cambozola recipe. I will do that eventually though.
Oh yeah, I paired this creamy, oozy cheese with another style I had on hand...my Reblochon. Ooooh, very tasty!
-Boofer-
Maybe next time you should wipe down the white mold if it grows on your Stilton with vinegar to prevent a runny paste.
Thanks for the tip, but I think the overall moisture in the paste was a little high for a Stilton. I'll have to go back over my make notes to see where I can adjust.
-Boofer-
I love the look of that paste (from the first pic); however, the second appeared as if it had melted somewhat--were they taken at two different temperatures? Looks like you have a champion here--let's call it Boofrogina!
Quote from: Brie on September 25, 2011, 05:25:45 AM
I love the look of that paste (from the first pic); however, the second appeared as if it had melted somewhat--were they taken at two different temperatures? Looks like you have a champion here--let's call it Boofrogina!
LOL :D That's an original.
The earlier pic was when I had first cut the tall boy in half. The later shot with the Reb was at room temp. As I said, not a Stilton, but something else. You may have something in that naming.
I've found a Rubbermaid pitcher that I would like to adapt for my next effort. It has almost truly vertical walls. The same volume of curds that went into the two cam molds would fit comfortably in this new form. Seems like that would be closer in volume to the Stilton shown in the video.
I don't know what effect volume or size of the cheese has on affinage and other processing qualities. I do know that in this last effort the curds were too wet. If I follow Sailor's guidance, the curds should not be cut, but merely ladled into the mold. If I follow the technique in the Stilton video, the curds should be cut smaller than I cut mine in this make. I would also figure in a smaller floc multiplier and probably cook a little longer.
-Boofer-
I have a better solution for you; use Bûcheron mold! I am now doing a small Persillé style cheese with it and it's perfect for that. My outgoing (post drain) weight was 2Lbs. (975g to be exact) and it's the perfect size for 1 gallon. This is a hoop but it drains faster than Camembert molds because it has more holes. I slowed it down by simply putting it on top of another cheese mold so I got a good overnight drain. Put another cheese mold on top of it when it's time to flip - makes it a breeze.
Here is the apparatus:
First pic - the mold on its own
Second pic - the mold placed inside a 500g mold
Third pic - I demonstrate how you can easily cover it with another 500g mold for easy flipping
Fourth pic - this is the cheese that came out of it. It's a few days old now so don't expect it to be a beauty queen quite yet
Quote from: iratherfly on September 28, 2011, 04:46:08 AM
I have a better solution for you; use Bûcheron mold!
Great alternative! Where do I get one? I haven't seen anything like it being offered in the usual channels.
-Boofer-
A-HA! You should always ask me for these things. I get a lot of stuff directly from manufacturers and distributors and have access to an immense amount of cheese molds and other equipment in all shapes you can imagine. I have a few of these brand new in the box here. If you want I can sell you some. I believe they are just a few bucks each. I can check on it if you want. Any other requests? ;)
My hero! :)
Matter-of-fact, I was considering a Manchego basket-style mold as well.
Yes, your Bûcheron mold is so much more elegant a solution.
I'll limit my zeal to those two molds because I don't wish to overtax you nor surprise the Missus too much. She doesn't know yet that my four Reblochon molds are due in soon along with Margaret Morris' book. :P
-Boofer-
Oh you are killing me here. You too sneak moulds into the cupboard when the wife is not home? This is hilarious!
I was thinking of doing a little online shop for all those interesting moulds and for cultures too. Right now I am putting together a Chèvre-making kit that is super high quality so I got tons of samples. While I don't have the manchego mould here right now, I can get you one. The ones I have access too are really nice, they have the traditional manchego markings that are a results of an internal strip that you can take out if you don't want the markings or want to make another cheese. I am not sure that this is the exact model, but it looks like this:
Can you tell me the capacity of the Manchego mold? It would change depending on whether you had the basket marking piece in place, correct?
If you would, Sir, let me know prices for the two and how you want to be paid. Do you do PayPal? If you're considering an online shop, I'm a big believer in PayPal. Otherwise, the usual forms of payment are there.
Unfortunately, I don't do Chèvre. Seems like a good deal for someone else though.
-Boofer-
Okay, I decided this tall boy was ready to be sealed up and stored for a while. It's just about at the 90-day mark, per Sailor's sage advice. I'd like to let it stay in the main fridge, sealed up, for another two weeks at least. I'd like to see the rind soften a bit. Right now, it seems improbable to actually EAT.... :o :P
We'll see.
-Boofer-
Huh, this is like a Micro-Stilton! How fun! You should give it its own name. Something like "stiltonette" :) By the way, I don't suggest you keep it in Vaccum. It will ammoniate and spoil. Keep it in wooden box or vented Tupperware over some breathing grille so that it won't touch the bottom.
I can do PayPal. I am a believer too. My tech startup (Saveby (http://saveby.com)) is a PayPal partner and we are using some very sophisticated transaction apparatuses from the PayPal API there.
Just looked into the Manchego moulds. It seems I only have the heavy duty ones that includes the pattern strip and follower. Those are quite expensive, in the $50-$75 range so I am not sure if this will work out for you. (they come in 1000g to 3200g and the different models have diameters of 100mm, 110mm, 125mm, 130mm, 170mm, 190mm and 210mm.
As for the Bûcheron moulds, much better news here: I can sell those for $7.99 each. $6.79 if you order a dozen or more. They are actually very heavy duty HDPE. Really good stuff.
I'm confused.
How is it that Sailor recommends affinage through 90 days and then vacuum-sealing? If I buy Stilton or Fourme d'Ambert, it comes vacuum-sealed. Yet you tell me that it will ammoniate and spoil. ???
Ouch! :o on the Manchego mold pricing. I guess I'll have to put that off for now.
I would like to buy two of the Bûcheron moulds though. I'll PM my address. Let me know what the total would be for the two moulds plus shipping.
Thanks,
-Boofer-
It's just seems small and moist to me so I suggested not to vacuum seal it.
The best practice with these is to use thin foil. Like this one from Formaticum (http://www.formaticum.com/products/cheese-foil) just without the horrendous price...
No, it's dry on the outside. I'm hoping the paste is moist though. As far as the size, it has shrunk quite a bit since it started in the cam mould.
Wow, 14inches x 500feet! Wait, let me check the current price of silver.... No wonder it's so expensive. Too rich for my budget.
-Boofer-
I hear you man; I feel the same. They do sell them in retail quantities too but it's ridiculous. Frankly, I would look into foil for chocolate wrapping...
There ya go. pre-cut to 6"x6": http://www.clearcellobags.com/catalog/item/6646811/6513687.htm (http://www.clearcellobags.com/catalog/item/6646811/6513687.htm)
or to 8"x8: http://www.sugarcraft.com/catalog/candies/candyfoils/candyfoils.htm#8 (http://www.sugarcraft.com/catalog/candies/candyfoils/candyfoils.htm#8)
Both at $6.75 for 125 pieces
Wow, every time I talk to you it's like peeling an onion...you show me something new! I feel like a kid in a candy store, especially with those foil candy wrappers. Thanks for those links.
-Boofer-
Aging that cheese to 3 months is overkill, even 2 months is overkill. I have a hunch that some parts of the cheese has already liquified inside. Even at 30 days its starting to soften, imho that was the right time to eat it because it is still firm. Just because you age it for a long time doesn't mean it will have Stilton like blue veining or Stilton flavor. Blue veining really depends on the openness of the paste and the potency of the blue mold you used and strains also play a factor, there are strains that grows faster. From my experience 20 days after piercing is enough to get good blue veining if the paste of the cheese is crumbly and open. I think it would be better if you use an apple corer/cheese grader to check the progress of the cheese than relying in set aging time.
You might be right, Aris. I did sample the puck earlier...it was quite bit smaller...and it seemed fine.
This is my first true blue effort. I have learned quite a bit with this cheese, including ladling vs. cutting, piercing, rind development, and affinage. I'll see what I have created after a couple weeks.
I am hopeful my next foray into the blues will be an image closer to a Stilton. Ride, Captain, Ride...oh great Cheesemeister!
I am hoping for my next make to be in a Bûcheron mould. That would make for a larger, more interesting cheese.
-Boofer-
What did you learn? Would love to hear. I am not doing many blues but I am experimenting now with blue for the first time in like a year. I am trying something totally new and against common sense: A highly acidic curd, but lots of yeasts to bring it back rapidly to neutral rapidlly and give it some fluff and internal gas to help the blue develop. It's a ridiculous experiment that is surprisingly working so far. Preotolysis is a bit too fast and I am afraid it may cause bitterness but I am watching it closely. Reducing humidity doesn't work because it kills the blue but I think that refrigerating it for a couple of days will halt the geo and without affecting the blue so it will catch up again. (By the way, I didn't put geo in it; it just catches it from other cheese and shelves in the cave)
Quote from: iratherfly on October 03, 2011, 11:53:12 PM
What did you learn? Would love to hear.
I've learned that ugly
can sometimes be beautiful. But I'm not so enamored with the crinkly, wrinkly multicolored rind that this cheese presented to me. Found out I'm not that big a fan/connoisseur (http://www.artisanalcheese.com/products.asp?dept=1026) of the rind (sorry, Sailor :( ). I think for my next blue cheese I will minimize the gothic rind with vinegar and salt.
Piercing seemed to be an issue with this cheese. I pierced several times, but the holes always seemed to close up. That needs to receive some closer attention. It needs to be done early to give the blue inside an early chance, but then follow-up piercings need to reopen the ventilation holes to keep the blue thriving. This cheese was cut rather than ladled. I would like to try ladling next to see what the difference might be. I would expect more curd volume and wetter curd.
My intent was to create a cheese in the Stilton fashion, but in the end I created just a blue cheese. That will be my focus from now on...just to develop a respectable blue/bleu cheese.
Lastly, we had discussed my purchase of two Bûcheron moulds. Do you have them available? If so, may we proceed? I don't recall if you mentioned the dimensions of the Bûcheron. Can you tell me what they are?
Sounds like your renewed foray into blues may be breaking new ground in blue development. Good luck with that.
-Boofer-
Ah, yes. Unlike you I am a fan of the rind. The dirtier, stinkier, more rustic it is - the better is the cheese. It's just the nature of it and it's good for the cheese too.
Good note about piercing, thanks for that. It's been a while and I forgot the frequencies. Will do another thicker needle tonight. With the dense semi-lactic curd you really need to pierce thickly.
Bûcheron: There is no one size for them, every farmer makes them different. My moulds are still available (getting more of them this week. You will get them!) They can contain about 1kg (2.2Lbs) of curd. They call them 350g moulds but don't be mistaken. These are typically used to produce Bûcheron which is 350g after aging. The cheese I showed you in it started with 975g. (6 hours pre-drained semi lactic) and it still didn't fill the entire mould. Now, after a week it weights 680g so the final cheese will probably be about 600g. Of course depending on cheese type and aging you can produce a larger cheese. The size I believe is 16cm x 9cm (approx 6 1/3"H x 3 1/2" Ø)
I'm with you IRF, the rind is the best part. If you "minimize" the rind, you will minimize the flavor.
So Boofer, here's a little treat for you to try:
Boone Creek Blue Stuffed Figs.
Scrape a little concentrated blue from the rind
Stuff the figs
Wrap with a little prociutto and pin with a toothpick
Pop in the oven for just long enough to warm things up
Enjoy. Your friends will love you for serving this incredible appetizer.
I also have restaurants that are doing blue stuffed olives with the rind.
Papillion Roquefort has big flavor for having no rind and the surface is stronger tasting but not unappetizing. Gorgonozolas i've tasted with almost no rind to thin rind also have big flavor and the surface has a nice pear like flavor. Rogue River creamery produces rindless award winning chesses, they wouldn't win awards if their cheeses have minimized flavor. Real Stilton rind on the other hand tends to have TOO much blue mold flavor plus ammonia which is very unappetizing. Bleu D Auvergne and Fourme' D Ambert tends to have ammoniated rinds w/ b linens. You must have rind fetish mr. Ed to love funky thick rinds.
Quote from: Aris on October 05, 2011, 09:47:48 PM
You must have rind fetish mr. Ed to love funky thick rinds.
That tickles my funnybone! Mr. Ed with a rind fetish. ;D
-Boofer-
Aris - the whole concept of Blue is to build internal flora within crevices inside the pâté of the cheese. In other words, it is exactly rind that you build over and over again -inside the cheese. Generally speaking, the flora is what lends any cheese much of its aromatic properties. The rind also has a significant effect on the rate of lipolysis and proteolysis in the cheese which are responsible for flavor and texture development. In many cases they also use as a protective bacterial boundary that inhibit growth and protrusion of competing bacteria and prevents moisture from leaving the cheese. Many blues develop a geo rind that you cannot see (it just gets more of a creamy or brownish shade closer to the edge).
I cannot imagine most cheese without rind (Tomme de Savoie, Camembert, Beaufort, Tallegio, Reblochon, Crottin...). The plasticy character-less supermarket brand cheddar that ages in vacuum bags is the perfect example for what happens when you make rindless cheese. Can't even remotely compare it to clothbound or cave aged cheddar types. There are very few cheeses like Gouda, Edam, Feta, Queso Blanco or Haloumi, that really don't need rind and boast that clean non aromatic flavor and uniformed texture throughout the slice (Unless a very long-aged Gouda). Otherwise the rind is king and the art of cheesemaking is very much about the ability to grow a gorgeous garden of fungi from your local terroir on your bed of fermented milk... There is a great amount of exaggerated phobias surrounding rinds and moulds, but that is a modern day cognition that is the result of big-corporate promotion of germophobia in order to sell cleaning and packaging products or promote food that is made lazily on an industrial scale with long shelf life and perfectly lousy yet very consistent appearance and taste.
This is more about fear mongering than cheese mongering. People fail to realize that from bread to vinegar to wine, beer and cheese, to cured meats and pickles -about 70% of our diet is based on fermented foods where floras, molds, yeasts, fungi and bacterium have been promoted intentionally to create the flavor, texture, aroma and to protect the food from competing pathogenic enemies. These are GOOD for you and should cognitively signal to your brain that more mold means better cheese; big flavor, high quality, care, patience; a great deal of artisanship and skill with the wholesomeness of small dairy where animals are well treated and have good life. To modern day Americans it symbolizes the polar opposite. If the rind has mold or the texture is uneven -stay away. It's not made industrially and therefore not safe. Who knows what the farmer put on it and what grow on my cheese? How safe is dairy that comes from small farmers with a few animals that eat wild plants instead of precisely manufactured diet? Can I eat the cheese if it has rind? Throw it away/cut it off. Bacteria bacteria bacteria!
Sailor - what a great simple recipe! In the Mediterranean it's common to combine goats' cheese with figs (which are very abundant) and maybe some roasted nuts -in salads, sandwiches, baked goods etc. Blue cheese would make a terrific combination. One thing that I do with blues (which works especially well with Gorgonzola) is combining it with artichoke hearts and lock it in a turnover of puff pastry. I do an egg wash on it (1tbsp water + 1 beaten egg, just smear it thinly on the dough with a brush or paper towel - keep the moisture inside and gives it a flaky shiny crust). If I have some sesame or poppy seeds around I sprinkles those on the egg-washed puff pastry too but not a must. I bake at about 350°F-375°F (depends on size) until golden brown (15 min? Aagin, depends on size and how many you have on the baking sheet). The results? A Gorgonzola and Artichoke Bourekas. Flaky and hot outside, gooey and yummy inside (though they are still great eaten at room temp). Would work very well with Roquefort or Valdeón too.
Take it easy, i know the purpose of the "Rind" no need to lecture me or rant about it. I make surface ripened cheeses myself so i already know what you are talking about. We are talking about blues here, not surface ripened cheeses. I was just saying that there are blues that taste awesome without a rind or with a thin rind. I was also explaining the flavor of the rind of those cheeses. I never said rind is plain bad and should be prevented from forming. In fact im fond of eating funky rinds even with ammonia flavor but i hate heavily ammoniated rinds. From my experience of eating and making blue, having a thick rind of blue is detrimental in the long run because of ammonia seeping into the cheese. All rinded blues that i have eaten tends to have ammonia flavor in the pate especially Stilton. But rindless blues, like Roquefort and Danish Blue, never had a hint of ammonia flavor. Gorgonzola, very little. Thick blue rind from my observation, over ripens the cheese and gives ammonia flavor.
Great rind discussion! I see and appreciate both your sides, Aris & Yoav, and I know others can benefit from your different viewpoints.
For my part, I have little experience with making or eating bleu cheese. I'm a bleubie newbie. I didn't know a lot about the taste so I bought a one pound piece of Royal Blue Stilton a couple months ago. That seemed pretty good to my palate so a month or so later, I bought some more and accompanied it with a bit of Fourme d'Ambert, which I am leisurely enjoying now.
It is a little past the magical 90-day mark specified by Sailor and others here, so today I sliced open the second tall boy. I observed that the dry rind had become moistened, more malleable, and more attractive. It was very similar to what the commercial blues looked like when I opened their vacuum bags. The piercings still failed to achieve a fully populated interior. Something else I need to polish in the way of cheesemaking skills.
The paste was creamy and bluey. I'm still developing my blue palate I think. Something just doesn't jibe with my tastebuds. :P
I like the rinds on my Tommes and Beauforts, not so much on the Reblochons, and definitely not on the Taleggio or Esrom. :o I'd have to classify those last two as rind failures, but the paste was tasty. I am definitely looking forward to tasting my Tilsit at the end of this month. It's rind looks and smells pretty good.
That's a good point you make about moldy cheese, Yoav. Americans have been, for whatever reason, educated to understand that mold on cheese is an undesirable thing. I'm afraid I fall into that category as well, but I'm clawing my way up out of that pit of ignorance. I have left cheese out at room temperature for over a month! Something I would not have ever thought about doing, but it was required for my Goutaler to develop eyes. Don't curse the darkness, light a candle. Cheesemaking and this forum lights a lot of candles. 8)
Thanks for that recipe, Sailor. Yeah, I had seen you post it a while back. I might give it a try.
-Boofer-
Looks good. Very moist looking inside. Should be nice and tasty.
- Jeff
If you really want good veining, try making a stir curd blue cheese. If your familiar at making cheddar, you know the consistency of the curd before you stop cooking it. That is the right curd consistency to get good openings in the cheese. Then ladle the curds to the mold, you let it drain overnight. Salt the next day. This approach is alot less time consuming compared to Stilton style approach. Stilton is tricky because of the high moisture content, curds become mushy when salted if its too wet. I think its better for the curds to be slightly dry than wet thats why you should press the consolidated curds before milling if your not doing it already. This will ensure good openings in the paste.
Aris, that approach should work OK, but is not how I have seen most makers do it. The standard is to cook the curds hot, increasing temp faster than a cheddar, to create a slight shell on each curd piece and dehydrate the outer shell after some whey has come out. That way, when the curds fuse, they will retain their individual shapes and help with openness. This is one of the key nuanced steps in most standard, surface-salted blues.
The last 3 "stiltons" that I have made were 2# and I pressed the finished curds between 2 flat boards with an 8# wt while in the draining bag for 24hrs flipping once, then milled to almond size and salted and placed in the mold. Flipped 2x daily for 5 days then into the " cave" - veining has been really good-much better than any of these pictures.The difference is the curds were firmer and will knit, but leave voids. T-Bird
Aris - Sorry, never made a cheddar yet, but I know what you're talking about with the texture of the curds. Seems like that's what I recall seeing in that Stilton video. The curds they were salting were definitely more cooked and curd-like rather than the wet type I dealt with here and I've seen others dealing with.
I can appreciate that the drier curds would create the needed voids for better veining, but that seems to bring up a question when filling the blue cheese molds. There seem to be three ways to fill the mold:
- cut the curds and spoon them in (the way these were done)
- ladle the curds in (per Stilton requirement?)
- cook the curds so that their shell is somewhat harder, then spoon them in
Salting is done when?
If the curds are cooked so that their shell is a little firmer, then it seems like the cheese would have to be pressed at least with a light weight to obtain a better knit.
-Boofer-
After a clean break, ladle slices into a colander and for a cheese using c. 3 galls. milk, leave to drain until dripping stops - usually about 2 1/2 - 3 hours. Still in cheesecloth, press over about 7-8 hrs between 2 boards with about a 3lb weight on top. If curd cake is stiff enough, then break it roughly into c. 1" pieces. Mix in salt gently at this stage, then mould and turn as your recipe details. It shouldn't have to be pressed beyond that as the weight of the curds should ensure a knit.
Quote from: Boofer on October 07, 2011, 06:49:28 AM
Aris - Sorry, never made a cheddar yet, but I know what you're talking about with the texture of the curds. Seems like that's what I recall seeing in that Stilton video. The curds they were salting were definitely more cooked and curd-like rather than the wet type I dealt with here and I've seen others dealing with.
I can appreciate that the drier curds would create the needed voids for better veining, but that seems to bring up a question when filling the blue cheese molds. There seem to be three ways to fill the mold:
- cut the curds and spoon them in (the way these were done)
- ladle the curds in (per Stilton requirement?)
- cook the curds so that their shell is somewhat harder, then spoon them in
Salting is done when?
If the curds are cooked so that their shell is a little firmer, then it seems like the cheese would have to be pressed at least with a light weight to obtain a better knit.
-Boofer-
With Stilton curds, i think they are not cooked like a Cheddar curd, i think they are not cooked at all. Stilton curds are flaky, crumbly and slightly wet from the videos i've seen.
Heres how i do it:
Cut coagulated milk to 1 inch cubes, let it rest for 20 minutes, gently stir for a couple of minutes, turn on the heat and start cooking curds while stirring gently. I dont know what temp, i check by sight and touch, i just pour a drop of whey on my hand and it should be warm. When it looks and feels right, i ladle the cooked curds directly to the mold. If you want you can dunk the whole mold into the pot and scoop the curds.
About knitting, If you have seen videos of cheddar making, you can see curds becoming slabs of curds with no problem so no pressing is needed. It will knit better than a Stilton and will take less than a day to fully knit and no need to smooth the surface. . The cheese will have some crevices but not as big as a Stilton.
You can also cook it till it reach scrambled egg consistency. This will knit better and produces an almost smooth rind. From the videos i've seen of Roquefort, Fourme D' Ambert and Bleu D Auvergne production, they have this consintecy or probably softer. Salting is done after draining and reaching the right acidity. You can brine or dry salt, i prefer dry salting, 2 1/2 tsp fine sea salt per pound of curd. Lessen the salt if you want a sweeter cheese.
Using cooked/stirred curd is indeed a great way to give Blue enough air to develop and to get a nice texture for the cheese as well.
Boofer, sounds like you made cooked or washed curd cheese before so you actually know the drill; after you cut the curd let rest for 5 minutes, stir and begin to heat very gently so that in 30 minute you will be at the 98°F-102°F neighborhood. During this time give it a good stir every 5 minutes or so to prevent it from matting together to help it shrink and firm up. The resulting curd should feel much drier, small and springy. It should easily mat together in your hand if you close it in a fist. If it's not ready yet, give it a few more minutes. Empty it to a cheesecloth-lined colander first to allow it to drain. Fluff the curd to keep it separated. Now load it into a cheesecloth-lined cheese mould (optional: sprinkle some P.Roq on it as you go!). Finish with a light pressing. Flip and redress a couple of times before leaving overnight under its own weight.
You will get cheese that doesn't have any smooth surfaces (looks like a frozen block of curds). Do not worry, during the overnight pressing it will mat together. Aging will turn it into a solid knotted mass (Rind will help a lot). The cheese will have many mechanical air openings which will help the blue develop. The dry nature of this curd will also slow down or possibly prevent that undesired effect of ammonia. This will be more crumbly like Roquefort, as oppose to creamy like Gorgonzola. By the way, if you have ever seen Roquefort before aging - it looks just like that: right off the press before aging, it looks exactly like that.
One other note: You can also use yeast (KL71 works very good on the paste, not just on the rind) and add MD89 to your ripening culture so help create small eye formation and gas buildup while accelerating the deacification of the paste which will help the blue grow. (also produces nice aroma and flavor)
Hmmm... fresh un-aged Roquefort. Not very smooth:
Thanks for your tips, guys.
I think my recollection got a little foggy so I went back and checked the first page of this thread (and my notes). I followed linuxboy's recipe and I thought I had some pretty dry curds (scrambled eggy) when they went into the molds. The pH was on target with the recipe. PR was added initially to the milk not to the curds but it started right out pretty quickly.
The part that didn't seem to be on target was the moistness of the final cheese and subsequent lack of spaces inside the paste. You can see from the pics I posted that the exterior of the cheese was rough even though I tried to smooth it. It wouldn't smooth easily because the curds seemed too dry. Strange.
There is one other make point that I seemed to miss: I don't think the temp of the curds ever got up to 100F. If they had, they would probably have been dry enough to form the crevices and spaces necessary for spreading the blue. That may have been the critical factor.
-Boofer-
QuoteIt wouldn't smooth easily because the curds seemed too dry.
Calcium retention too high. Even with dry curds, if they had acidified enough, they would be spreadable. Either rennet lower, or let them acidify longer to break it up.
QuoteI don't think the temp of the curds ever got up to 100F.
For blues, you WANT to create a slight moisture gradient in the curds, so that they can create crevices when you loose pack the curds in. And to do that, have to cook.
Quote from: linuxboy on October 10, 2011, 05:57:51 AM
QuoteIt wouldn't smooth easily because the curds seemed too dry.
Calcium retention too high. Even with dry curds, if they had acidified enough, they would be spreadable. Either rennet lower, or let them acidify longer to break it up.
I added my rennet at pH6.48. Your recipe asked for 6.45. I can go lower.
Quote from: linuxboy on October 10, 2011, 05:57:51 AM
QuoteI don't think the temp of the curds ever got up to 100F.
For blues, you WANT to create a slight moisture gradient in the curds, so that they can create crevices when you loose pack the curds in. And to do that, have to cook.
I went back and reread the recipe. Nowhere in there does it say what the cooking temp should be. Oh oh.... ;) It does caution not to overheat initially when it calls for a ripening temp of 86F.
I will redline/update my make instructions to include a cooking temp of 100F for
?? minutes. I'm thinking 30 minutes.
I think, except for that cooking temp & time, the recipe/make went pretty smoothly for my first effort. Adding that detail should tighten it up very well.
-Boofer-
Oh right, this is stilton. Confusing my blues. No cook. Then maybe the curds did dry too much. Mine are spreadable after the 4 days in the mold. Looks like your make was fine if you renneted close to 6.45.
This had been wrapped in plastic wrap, vacuum-sealed, and kept in the big fridge. I opened it today, cut a wedge, and sampled it with some crisp, sweet apple slices (Jonagold). I also teamed it up with a wedge of my Chaource #1 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8555.0.html). Both were surprisingly tasty. The blue is over five months old and still very reasonable in taste. Vacuum-sealing is a modern miracle.
To be honest, I didn't eat the rind. I just do not prefer it.
-Boofer-