Hello. ;)
I will make my first camembert today and I have a question.
I have setup a refrigerator with humidity level of 90-95% and Temp. 11-13C.
In the recipe I need to put it in the aging container after drain and put it in
the cave area and wrap it after 2 weeks. Like I understand, in my situation
I don't need to put it in the container because I have good humidity and temp.
levels in the refrigerator and I can age them just inside with out any containers?
10-14 days at 12-15C / 95% then just down the temp. to 3-4C / 95% and age
more for 3-4 weeks? Or anyway I need to put it in the container wit closed lid ...
Thank you. :)
Hello Fix, welcome!
Your understanding is correct that if you have your cave set up with correct temp & hummidity then you don't need to additionally put the Cams in ripening-aging containers.
But those containers do give a few other advantages that you may want to think about:
- They provide an easy place to catch and clean out the remaining draining whey, in your fridge it would not be good if the whey dripped on cheeses on next shelf below.
- They provide an easier way to fine tune your humidity, many gauges are poor at measuring very high 90-95% RH.
- They provide a barrier, ok poor barrier, for P candidum to spread to other non PC type cheeses.
I've been updating the Wiki: Brie / Camembert Cheese Making Recipe (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-brie-camembert-cheese-making-recipe/) article with posts in this board, you may find some more useful stuff there.
Thank you very much for your answer. :) In the recipe I've expected to have a good
curd after 1 hour or so. But it's already 6 hours passed and I don't have yet a good
curd, I'm thinking maybe begin everything one more time with more rennet and
with 3.7% milk. At this moment I'm using one with 2.3% ... Or just wait few hours more
to not loosing milk ... ^-^
No it's 22:30 here ... and curd was not formed, didn't got time to dry it.
Next try in 2 days. :o *1st FAIL*
Well sugar! Several reasons why you have not got a good rennet curd set, see our Wiki: Coagulation Defects article: https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki/ (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki/)
Without the rennet coagulation you should still with correct time and temp get a lactic acid coagulation and you could use it to make cream cheese. See the Coagulation article for info on Lactic Coagulation.
Cheers!
Thank you man.
Temperature of milk too low or high - to low I know is under 29.5C and to high it's how much? ;)
And one more question if I will have no curd set after 1-2 hours, I can wait more and make any
way a camember or camember request to set curd exactly in 1-2 first hours after adding rennet?
Optimum rennet coagulation temperature (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-cheese-milk-coagulation/) is 30-36°C / 86-96°F, so your 29.5 C was fine. The reason for not getting a good rennet coagulation curd set could be several as per the article linked above. If you post more details we could try and figure out why for you. Normal solution if can't locate the problem is to increase the rennet dosage rate.
For lactic acid coagulation you normally let milk set with mesophilic (low temp loving) starter culture overnight to get a softer curd, to get a reasonable set you should be above ~21°C / 70°F.
I would say no if you don't get a rennet coagulated curd in normal time frame then you should proceed to use that batch for making some sort of lactic coagulated cheese. This is because the acidity increase curve will be way off, and less whey expulsion without the rennet action. That said there are many primarily lactic acid cheeses using P candidum to surface rippen the cheese, we have a whole board just for them.
Thank you. I need to read WIKI very informative here, missed this part.
Hm ... how to understand it please. Maybe it's my Eng. but I can't understand this:
Milk is warmed to optimum rennet coagulation temperature of 30-36°C / 86-96°F.
Higher temperatures up to ~43°C / 110°F result in faster coagulation times.
Above 40°C / 104°F and the rennet becomes inactivated.
30-36°C = Good coagulation.
43°C = Fast coagulation.
Above 40°C = rennet inactive (no coagulation).
But 43°C is above 40°C ... and it say that above 40°C rennet is inactive. :o
Good catch, thanks, corrected!
For rennet coagulated cheese making you should follow the recipe which should have coagulation at temp somewhere between 30-36C.
You are welcome. ;)
Thank you for your help. I will post something when I will have good results.
*2nd FAIL* Need help for sure now ...
1. Heat pasteurized 3.7% milk to 32°C.
2. Added 1/4 tsp. of calcium chloride in 50ml in water and added it to the milk.
3. In 2 mins. added mix of starter MM101 + Penicillium Candidum +Geotrichum Candidum.
4. Stir for 2 mins. and let set for ~90 mins. at stable temp. of 32°C.
5. In ~90 mins. added 1/8 tsp. of liquid rennet (double force) in 20ml of water and added it to the milk.
6. Stir for 2 min. and let set it till good curd. (normaly 45 mins.)
7. In 45 mins. there was no stable curd in 2 hours cuted curd.
8. Let it "heal" and tried to gently stir it.
9. Curd become "porridge" with no "diamonds" ...
10. Tried to put it in the mold ... everything gose out from holes in the sides of mold.
11. Opened bottle of good wine, to much stress. ;)
p.s: I've got something like this after gently stir it. But not holded in muld, just gose out from holes with curd and whey.
(https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=271.0;attach=793;image)
Good thing you had a good bottle of wine!
On stirring in ingredients, there's some info here (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-cheese-ingredients-when-to-add/), basically stir in slowly in up and down motio with perf ladle if you have one, no rapid stirring with wisk.
Getting a good rennet curd set is tough, that said it is not a firm gel but very soft, see some info and pics here (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-breaking-or-cutting-cheese-curd/).
Your curd was as you said too soft which is why it fell apart when stirred. So next time increase the rennet dosage rate and then if too fast a curd back off. Three different methods (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-cheese-curds-when-to-cut/) to tell when to cut here, for now you could use 1 or 2 and worry about floc rate on later makes.
On your picture, whey is clear indicating good break thus good acidification and rennet action. Next time after healing the cut curds, also stir initially for 30 seconds slowly and very gently then as curds heal you can slowly build up to more agressive stirring.
For this batch you could gravity drain in a cheesecloth bag and make Light Cream Cheese / American Neufchatel (https://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-light-cream-cheese-american-neufchatel-making-recipe/).
PS: Thx for picture, really helps, instead of linking there is a How To Upload in FAQs board, better method in case your link gets broken in future then others can't see picture.
Others, please feel free to pipe in and advise.
LOL, That's how we all learn I guess. That pic looks to me if it had too much acid levels eg. sour milk or too much acidification. It looks like the 30 min mozz recipe if you added WAAAY too much citric acid. But that's just my opinion.
Thanks. But it's your image. :D Just found it to show example of what I've got.
The problem is that I've got the same as you on the image, but with no clear
indicated whey. My one was like kefir. :D
My opinion that it's about milk quality. Strange but I bough one with good reputation.
When did you add your rennet, and how much, and how long did you stir? I don't see it in your procedure.
Dave in CT
Please see #5.
5. In ~90 mins. added 1/8 tsp. of liquid rennet (double force) in 20ml of water and added it to the milk.
OK, got my reading glasses on now. 2 minutes may be too long to stir after adding rennet. I stir in my rennet with 30 up and down strokes with my strainer, less than 1 minute, closer to a half minute. Too much agitation in stirring the rennet can make it form a weak gel, as I learned by experience. I've also found that I have to be much more gentle than I think when stirring. Too many years of metal work, I guess. Had to learn the touch for milk.
Dave in CT
I will try 30 sec. next time thanks. Tomorrow I will have one more try with raw milk from the market.
What is looks strange for me also, is that I see many times comment like: 3 drops of rennet for 1 gal.
My double str. rennet need to have 1/8 tsp. for 1 gal. and it's definitely not 3 drops. It's about 13 drops.
It's not to much? This one:
http://www.cheesemaking.com/OrganicVegetableRennet.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/OrganicVegetableRennet.html)
QuoteMy opinion that it's about milk quality. Strange but I bough one with good reputation.
Mostly it's not, at least I've bought store bought milk from most large chain groery stores here in Houston and no problem, most of the time it is about rennet. Also, did you buy retail Organic Milk? Most is Ultra Pasteurized (which is much harder to rennet coagulate) for longer shelf life, even if it says Pasteurized. Search forum on work "Organic" and you'll get several stories.
On rennet dosage rate, many different types and strengths, also it ages depending on type, format, age and storage conditions, thus always start with manufacturers recommended dosage rate (in this case that supplier's repackaged rennet) and adjust up (normally) or down from there.
Also, when a recipe says "gently stir the curd", usually what it means is "sort of move the curd a bit so it doesn't mat". It doesn't usually mean stir it in circles; especially early on when the curd is still very soft. However, from the sounds of it, I think your milk is probably high heat pasturized.
- Jeff
It say that milk is "ice filling". Like I undertsnad It's here that proteins are break down.
Thank you very much for your help. The problem was with the milk. ;)
The one that I used passed ice filling (not sure it's called like this in Eng.) before going in bottles.
To have longer shelf life (10 days). I think this sort of milk is harder to rennet coagulate.
But this morning I've got a very cheap 3.2% milk packs that imported daily in our shop, because
of short shelf life (5 days). And already at 32°C I saw a little layer of cream on top of the milk.
After added rennet in 1 hour curd set was perfect! Woo-hooooooo! Now draining ... already
turned 3 times! Hehehe ....
Great to see that the promblem has been solved. Was thinking that some cheese cloth between your cheese and mat, would help with draining and sticking. Just a thought.
Thank you for the info. Now it's in the cave, wating for mold!
I'm on day 11 now. Wrapped two from three and left one with out wrap. I want to
see what will be the difference on the day 21 with one that was wrapped and one open
air in the cave. And 3rd (wrapped also) will be opened on day 28. ;) The only one thing,
I was tried to add Brie, that I made yesterday to the container with closed lib, but humidity
drop to 80% when I close lid, but when it's open it about 95% like in whole refrigerator.
This is the photo that was made on the day 5:
3 days before cuting my first 19 days camembert!
And next one will be at day 26 in one week!
So exited! :D
How do they smell/feel? What did you wrap them with? They look great.
At this moment they smell good, but if I take a deep breath ... there is some
ammonia. I think I will need to air it one day before cut. Two of three are
wrapped in two ply cheese wrap. I will post an update in some day. ;)
Cheers!
Hmmm... thhey can have a slight ammonia smell mixed with some mushroomy or cellar like aroma. If it's too much of the ammonia and not much of the mushroom/cellar feeling, than that cheese wrap may be ammoniating them. At day 20 they should still not be overly soft so if they are they are aging too fast which means the center of the cheese isn't ready while the outside is already so ripe that it's ammoniating.
Is that Formaticon type wrapping paper? (paraffin paper outside, breathing nylon inside). That paper doesn't nearly breath well enough. (the best wrap for these is perforated cellophane). I suggest to take it off. I really don't understand where this thing about wrapping them came from (you are not the only person). Young Camembert is wrapped for transportation (with something that breathes much better than the 2-ply stuff), then stuck in a poplar wood box that is rather dry. Don't wrap them at home. Let the rind grow; turn them and flatten/rub the rind gently every day or two to keep it dense and active but not overly thick. It should slightly recede towards day 20-24 or so, exposing some of the geo rind underneath. This will save you lots of troubles and prevent premature ammoniation and slip-skin issues, or over aging on the outer part of the paste before the heart of it is ripe.
Ok thank you! I will try it with next batch. Do you think it's to early to open at day 19 ...
I think it's ok 3 weeks from the day of production or I'm wrong?
21 day is the minimum. I think 19 is just slightly short of what is the minimum. 24 is ideal -but if you have a few wheels -go for it. It will help you figure out what goes on in the other wheels of the batch and quality control them.
Thank you! :) I was wrong, it will be exactly day 21. I will open 1 wrapped and one no on this day.
And one more wrapped will be opened on the day 28. I will post an update. ;) Cheers!
Ok, here is my first! Age: 21 day.
- Very strong.
- I would like to make it thicker.
* Due to the small thickness, the percentage of mold and internal cheese, was to big. To strong for me.
- There is only 2 differences from wrapped and no aging.
* Mold on wrapped remained white and on the one aged not wrapped become a little yellow, not "snow white".
* Mold on wrapped was more tender and on the one aged not wrapped become more dried up and more dry.
Cheers! :D
Well they certainly look good. Congrats.
Thank you and thank you all for the help! ;)
Sorry, I haven't been on in a few weeks. Did you make any more?