Greetings all.
I am admittedly one of those guys that over build everything.
And after not being able to find my favorite cheese in my area, I decided it was time to go DIY.
At first I thought ok get a Dutch lever press, and a 4" mold should be fine.
Then my family and friends found out I was researching the process, and immediately started placing orders.
So my 4" mold has now grown to a desire to do 7,8,or 10 inch hard cheeses.
This raised an issue bigger molds = higher pressures.
So here's what I have so far and welcome any comments on the matter.
(R X R) X 3.14 X (input psi) = force of ram
(R X R) x 3.14 = area of mold
Force/area of mold = psi inside the mold
7" hoop @ 10psi = 385lbs @ 25psi = 962lbs
10" hoop @ 10psi = 785lbs @ 25psi = 1963lbs
For these sorts of pressures I decided a pneumatic device was the way to go.
to that end I have placed an order for a 6" bore X 20" stroke cylinder which should provide.
6" @ 100psi = 2826lbs (100psi being the normal output of my little compressor)
I should only need a fraction of this but better to have the legs than to run out of steam.
I also purchased an arbor press to re purpose for the job.
I will also add a digital regulator to control the force.
I intend to add photos once I start assembly, waiting a week or so for the cylinder to arrive.
Thanks
Fatman
Welcome Fatman,
Keep us updated on your progress, I've been using a modified homemade dutch press with pulleys
to get the pressures that i need to press a 9.5 inch 10 gallon wheel. It works well but it is a bit bulky
and ungainly (see picture). My wife would like me to come up with a more compact way to do it.
Jaspar
Welcome to the forum, Fatman.
Have you made cheese before? What styles of cheese do you intend to make? Most cheeses don't require the levels of pressure you are describing and/or imagining.
-Boofer-
I am going to be making some hard cheeses.
A friend of mine has family that commercially make Basque cheeses in France.
And they are giving me some guidance to their style of pressing.
Also the pressures I noted are for reference only, I know most cheeses don't need those pressures.
But as I said earlier better to have the legs and not need them than to run out of steam.
Not to mention I have a touch of Redneck DNA, so if something doesn't quite squeeze together make a bigger press.
I also choose to use a really large diameter cylinder to keep the input PSI lower i.e. less apt to blow out an air hose or fitting.
Welcome
You might want to check out this thread
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5701.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5701.0.html)
Thanks, I had already read that.
Those presses look awesome, and he really knows how to make them look good.
The one issue I had with any off the shelf pneumatic presses is their max numbers were based on the max input pressure of the cylinder.
In this case 250psi, most home use compressors run 90-125psi max
So lets use my earlier example of Cheddar @ 25psi
He doesn't list the size of his cylinders here so lets assume a common size of 1.5"
First we need the radius (1.5/2) squared X 3.14 (pi) =1.766 for the area of the cylinder @ 100psi that gives just 176.625LBS of force
Seems like plenty, but now lets look at the intended mold size of 8"
First the area (8/2) = 4 X 4 = 16 X 3.14 = I get 50.24 Sq inches
So we take the max force with a common compressor 100psi giving 176lbs and divide that by the area of an 8" mold 50.24.
That means this press with the available compressor would give you ~3.51 psi in your mold.
Not enough for Cheddar I think.
If my logic is incorrect I'm sorry I had to make some assumptions.
Thanks
Lol, I was just about to ask whether your other name was Carter. ;D
He was usually very indepth and informative in his information. So hopefully you will be able to glean something.
I had to go back and read his other post to get the Carter reference.
And yes he did provide valuable info.
From his earlier post and a visit to a local cheese factory, not to mention several references to a description of cheddar by Dixon (Used 40psi for cheddar) I knew I needed a beast to cover all the bases.
Not to mention my friends from France talk of using pressures high than that.
His press and those stories are exactly why I chose a 6" cylinder as apposed to a smaller one.
I'm a network administrator by trade and tend to try to understand as many possabilities that I can and plan for the absolute craziest situation that may arise.
And yes I frustrate loved ones to no end. ^-^
Thanks
Quote from: Fatman on July 18, 2011, 04:24:39 PM
But as I said earlier better to have the legs and not need them than to run out of steam.
I guess if I'm being honest here, that's the way I designed my Dutch press. More Power!! Following in the footsteps of Tim "the Toolman" Taylor. 8)
Paul's here too...let's form a conga line! ;)
-Boofer-
I decided to make a tool to predict the necesarry input pressures for a given cylender size across 1-4 molds of equal size.
Use the attachment or
Copy everything below to a notepad and save as FatmanCalc.hta
Once thats done double click and enjoy.
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>
Fromage Du Fatman
</TITLE>
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="vbscript">
OPTION EXPLICIT
Dim dblPrices(2)
dblPrices(0) = 12.56
dblPrices(1) = 28.26
dblPrices(2) = 50.24
Sub cmdCalc_OnClick
Dim intSelected, intSelected1
Dim dblTotal, dblcyl, dblcyl1, txtcyl
Dim dblTot, dblTot1, dblTot2, dblTot3
intSelected = frmForm1.cboProducts.SelectedIndex
dblTot = dblPrices(intSelected) * frmForm1.txtQty.Value
dblTot = dblTot
dblTot1 = dblTot * 2
dblTot2 = dblTot * 3
dblTot3 = dblTot * 4
dblCyl = frmForm1.txtcyl.Value / 2
dblcyl1 = dblcyl * dblcyl * 3.14
frmForm1.txtTotal.Value = " " & dblTot
frmForm1.txtTotal1.Value = " " & dblTot1
frmForm1.txtTotal2.Value = " " & dblTot2
frmForm1.txtTotal3.Value = " " & dblTot3
frmForm1.txtTotal4.Value = " " & dblTot / dblcyl1
frmForm1.txtTotal5.Value = " " & dblTot1 / dblcyl1
frmForm1.txtTotal6.Value = " " & dblTot2 / dblcyl1
frmForm1.txtTotal7.Value = " " & dblTot3 / dblcyl1
End Sub
</SCRIPT>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR="white">
<FONT FACE="arial" SIZE=2><B>
<CENTER>
<H3>Mold Pressure Calculator</H3>
<P>
Select the Mold Size you require from the list, then
simply enter the Desired internal mold psi,</P>
and click the Calculate
button to see the LBS of force needed.
</P>
<FORM NAME="frmForm1">
<SELECT NAME="cboProducts">
<OPTION>Mold Size 4"
<OPTION>Mold Size 6"
<OPTION>Mold Size 8"
</SELECT>
Target PSI
<INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtQty" SIZE=10>
</P>
Please enter your Cylinder Size in inches
<INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtCyl" SIZE=10>
<P>
<INPUT TYPE="button" NAME="cmdCalc" VALUE="Calculate">
<P>
This is the force in pounds needed on your Side by side molds.
</P>
<INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal">
Two Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal1">
Three Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal2">
Four Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal3">
</P>
This is the Prdicted necesarry psi in your pnuematic cylinder.
</P><INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal4">
Two Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal5">
Three Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal6">
Four Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal7">
</FORM>
</BODY>
</HTML>
OK I felt bad not doing one for the lever guys.
It was a major complication but here it is let me know if it works for ya.
Use the attachment or
Copy everything below to a notepad and save as FatmanLeverCalc.hta
Once thats done double click and enjoy.
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>
Lever Fromage Du Fatman
</TITLE>
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="vbscript">
OPTION EXPLICIT
Dim dblPrices(2)
dblPrices(0) = 12.56
dblPrices(1) = 28.26
dblPrices(2) = 50.24
Sub cmdCalc_OnClick
Dim intSelected, intSelected1, dblcyl0, dblcyl01
Dim dblTotal, dblcyl, dblcyl1, txtcyl
Dim dblTot, dblTot1, dblTot2, dblTot3
intSelected = frmForm1.cboProducts.SelectedIndex
dblTot = dblPrices(intSelected) * frmForm1.txtQty.Value
dblTot = dblTot
dblTot1 = dblTot * 2
dblTot2 = dblTot * 3
dblTot3 = dblTot * 4
dblcyl0 = CInt(frmForm1.txtwght.Value)
dblcyl01 = CInt(frmForm1.txtPiv.Value)
dblcyl = (dblcyl0 dblcyl01) / dblcyl01
dblcyl1 = dblPrices(intSelected)
frmForm1.txtTotal.Value = " " & dblTot
frmForm1.txtTotal1.Value = " " & dblTot1
frmForm1.txtTotal2.Value = " " & dblTot2
frmForm1.txtTotal3.Value = " " & dblTot3
frmForm1.txtTotal4.Value = " " & dblTot / dblcyl
frmForm1.txtTotal5.Value = " " & (dblTot / dblcyl) * 2
frmForm1.txtTotal6.Value = " " & (dblTot / dblcyl) * 3
frmForm1.txtTotal7.Value = " " & (dblTot / dblcyl) * 4
frmForm1.txtTotal8.Value = " " & dblTot / dblcyl
frmForm1.txtTotal9.Value = " " & dblcyl
End Sub
</SCRIPT>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR="white">
<FONT FACE="arial" SIZE=2><B>
<CENTER>
<H3>Mold Pressure Calculator</H3>
<P>
Select the Mold Size you require from the list, then
simply enter the Desired internal mold psi,</P>
and click the Calculate
button to see the LBS of force needed.
</P>
<FORM NAME="frmForm1">
<SELECT NAME="cboProducts">
<OPTION>Mold Size 4"
<OPTION>Mold Size 6"
<OPTION>Mold Size 8"
</SELECT>
Target PSI
<INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtQty" SIZE=10>
</P>
Please enter your Measurment from pivot to fulcrum in inches
<INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtPiv" SIZE=10 value="1">
</P>
Please enter your Measurment from fulcrum to wieght point in inches
<INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtwght" SIZE=10 value="1">
<P>
<INPUT TYPE="button" NAME="cmdCalc" VALUE="Calculate">
<P>
This is the force in pounds needed on your Side by side molds.
</P>
<INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal">
Two Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal1">
Three Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal2">
Four Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal3">
</P>
This is the Prdicted necesarry Wieghts in pounds needed on your Lever.
</P><INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal4">
Two Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal5">
Three Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal6">
Four Molds <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal7">
</P>
</P>
Amount of simulated wieght. (used for proofing Multiply sim wieght By Advantage Factor)
</P><INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal8"> Your Mech Adv Factor <INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="txtTotal9">
</FORM>
</BODY>
</HTML>
I was planning using my new pnuematic press to do my first cheese.
But the supplier shipped me the wrong cylinder, so my test cheese was done on a lever press.
Everything turned out well, but I have to admit tinkering with weights and wires and binding frames has convinced me.
Pnuematic is the right choice.
Run my tool set the dial, no tilting, binding and friction are minimal outcome predictable.
My first cheese ever turned out to be a pepper/garlic Gouda, I'm looking forward to my next batch with the big press..
Quote from: Fatman on July 25, 2011, 05:20:13 AM
I was planning using my new pnuematic press to do my first cheese.
But the supplier shipped me the wrong cylinder, so my test cheese was done on a lever press.
Everything turned out well, but I have to admit tinkering with weights and wires and binding frames has convinced me.
Pnuematic is the right choice.
Run my tool set the dial, no tilting, binding and friction are minimal outcome predictable.
My first cheese ever turned out to be a pepper/garlic Gouda, I'm looking forward to my next batch with the big press..
Glad to see your
pneumatic (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fpneumatic&ei=mugtTrqmKOPViAL2t4iPDg&usg=AFQjCNFVxWZd2J-qUmSn0-RT4hANGTpkag&sig2=NnV96x0JCIjYlYabjC7dtA) process is working for you.
-Boofer-
Yup, I think we got the cylinder issue resolved.
It should be all skwishy :o real soon.
Interested in having a play around myself with making a pneumatic press. Could perhaps send me a link to the cylinder that you have bought for your press?
Thanks, Steve
I will do better than that.
Once all the parts arrive I will post photos a parts list with prices and where I bought them.
I should have most this weekend or early next week.
I'm sort of targeting an 8" mold size.
I got two from ullmers they look HUGE!
Of course I will need to custom make followers from thick HDPE material I got from very thick cutting boards.
So far I have the following
1 100psi 3gal compressor from harbor freight $70
2 12ton shop press with hydraulics removed also from harbor freight $130
3 6"x15" SMC 600U1500 air cylinder from Webco $190
4 three position 5way push/pull control valve eBay $70
Misc tubes/and extras $150
Very pricey but also very sturdy and precise, can be used for wine/juice etc..
Should easily be able to press larger than 12" cheeses.
I didn't do this to save money though, I love the process of building stuff.
If you want a good inexpensive well made press ready to roll check out the market forum on here.
I forget his name but he makes beautiful presses at a great price.
I think his name is Carter and he sells a smaller unit for around $400.
My press is so large it lives in the garage and weighs over 200lbs.
But it's so cool!
Sorry if I misspelled anything the spell check doesn't run on my ipad.
Excellent! Thanks Fatman!
Steve
Got lucky today found a guy selling the white plastic cutting boards 1/2" & 3/4" thick..
Not cheap but large enough to use my root cutter and make some large followers for my big molds.
I also ended up with enough scraps to make some spacer blocks.
I have also purchased a 3000lbs compression load cell.
Hopefully I will be able to calibrate it, this will allow me to use my tool to ballpark the psi required and use the presses integrated scale to confirm the pressure.
I Love geek toys and am a bit OCD with gadgets. >:D
Well, I started receiving parts this week.
And here's the first fuzzy picture of the new press.
What you see is a 12ton shop press, that's been cut on a little tied to a industrial 6"X15" cylinder.
The pushrod on that thing is 1.375" and at it's max 250psi it hits 3140lbs. (I will only run approx 80 max)
The knob you see is a three position valve so I can raise, lower, or stop anywhere in between as your not moving that thing by hand.
For size comparison that follower in the pic is 8.25X1" the cutting board is 17"X20"X1"
I hope to be doing static presses this weekend, just to see if the thing will hold pressure.
I guess I've lost track...remind me again what you'll be pressing? Is this to mint your own coins? ::)
-Boofer-
I had a goal of two 8+ inch molds side by side @ 20psi for cheese.
Although I've seen a couple of references as high as 40psi
And a friend in France who actually is a cheese maker by trade says he uses high pressures to good effect.
Not to mention a visit to a local cheese factory had larger presses for single molds, I wondered what all the excess horse power was for.
Theirs where at least 8" cylinders and they were pressing what looked to be 12" molds.
And the secondary use is for juices and oils which depending on the stuff being squeezed can be high.
And the third is just because it's fun to take a simple device and see how extreme it can be.
And I really like to see square pegs go into round holes. >:D
I see...a graduate of BHU (Bigger Hammer University)? ;)
-Boofer-
Many times products are over designed so the manufacturer can ask for a higher price on the job...
Also many are willing to pay few extra $$ thinking that "maybe someday I'l need more PSI so I better keep that option open".
Cheese making been on hold for awhile.
We had a family member seek opportunities in the lords employment.
Hopefully will be able to get back into this soon.