Hey folks,
Been lurking for a few months and finally decided to post. I've made a few cheeses (cheddar, montasio, gouda, romano, gruyere, and manchego - pics below) and last week decided to try my first blue - a Fourme D'Ambert from "200 Easy Homemade Cheese Recipes." 7 days in and it's getting a nice blue mold. I also made my own cheese press, and made a 5.5 inch mold using a new stainless steel toilet roll holder (yes, seriously.... http://www.amazon.com/Toilet-Paper-Roll-Holder-Stainless/dp/tags-on-product/B0000TQFVY (http://www.amazon.com/Toilet-Paper-Roll-Holder-Stainless/dp/tags-on-product/B0000TQFVY)) that's been cut in half and drilled with holes. Working great so far! You can make 2 molds for around 30 bucks...
Anyway, just wanted to introduce myself and thank all of you for being on this site - all the questions and answers have been invaluable.
Cheers!
V
It looks like you have a excellent lot of cheeses aging there. Congrats on the press too. As long as it works who cares what it is made out of.
Hope the blue turns out for you too.
Thanks Tea! They seem to be aging fine in my converted Wine Cooler - unfortunately (as we all experience) I won't have a clue if they turned out for a few more months. Fingers crossed - and thanks for the words of encouragement!
V
Hey V,
A cheese to you for the amazon link. I think amazon will be selling a few more of those because of you! Ingenuity is a virtue to home cheesemakers. Best wishes.
Thanks for the cheese Smiling! Bit of a warning - cutting that stainless steel with a metal blade and a jigsaw can sure get loud. Wear earmuffs!
Lots of ingenious people out here - you've joined the crowd. Glad you are a full-fledged member and have quit your lurking...nasty habit, spying on us while you nibble on your cheese! ;)
It's true - secretly spying on people whilst cheese nibbling is a strange fetish of mine...
But I'm seeking help. ;)
That's what we're here for!
Actually, I think this is one of the most co-dependent self-help groups around. But is that a bad thing?
Very novel mold creation. Welcome to the forum, V.
I will watch with fascination for developments with your Fourme d'Ambert (http://iledefrancecheese.com/index.php/Fourme-d-Ambert/fourme-dambert.html). Seems like your DIY mold is ideally suited for this cheese style.
Here's another source for the holder. (http://www.organizeit.com/stainless-toilet-paper-holder.asp#) A little cheaper and a tad bit longer.
-Boofer-
Thanks for the cheaper link Boofer! So far my fourme is aging nicely and has wonderful mold growing all over it that I keep down a bit by rubbing it in. One question I have - do I wash/scrub the mold off when it's ready to foil? Does it matter? I ask because all the fourmes I've seen have a clean rind.
Quote from: vacant3 on September 02, 2011, 04:03:55 PM
Thanks for the cheaper link Boofer! So far my fourme is aging nicely and has wonderful mold growing all over it that I keep down a bit by rubbing it in. One question I have - do I wash/scrub the mold off when it's ready to foil? Does it matter? I ask because all the fourmes I've seen have a clean rind.
I'm new to the blues and would like to know as well.
I would like to know whether brushing or salting is the best technique for keeping a thinner, less-developed rind in blue cheeses like the Fourme d'Ambert. I defer to the more advanced opinions.
-Boofer-
Dry salted blue cheeses tends to have thinner rinds like Bleu D' Auvergne and Fourme d'Ambert compared to Stilton and their rind is very edible unlike Stilton. Also being wrapped in foil helps to get a thin wet rind. While Gorgonzola, after dry salting, is washed with brine during aging. I dont know when and how many times they brine wash it. This is why Gorgonzola has almost no rind and has the best tasting outer surface i've ever tasted, taste better than the paste itself imo. With Roquefort, they wrap it in aluminum foil after 1 month in the cave and age it for 3 months. This is the reason Roquefort has no rind and is moist. Some cheeses use Natamycin to inhibit mold growth to get a clean rind.
Quote from: Aris on September 02, 2011, 07:50:54 PM
Dry salted blue cheeses tends to have thinner rinds like Bleu D' Auvergne and Fourme d'Ambert compared to Stilton and their rind is very edible unlike Stilton. Also being wrapped in foil helps to get a thin wet rind. While Gorgonzola, after dry salting, is washed with brine during aging. I dont know when and how many times they brine wash it. This is why Gorgonzola has almost no rind and has the best tasting outer surface, taste better than the paste itself imo. With Roquefort, they wrap it in aluminum foil after 1 month and age it for 3 months. This is the reason Roquefort has no rind and moist. Some cheeses use Natamycin to inhibit mold growth to get a clean rind.
What is it about wrapping in foil as opposed to wrapping in some kind of cheese paper? Wouldn't both techniques smother the blue? Perhaps that's the idea.
-Boofer-
I think cheese paper will make the cheese breath and will make the cheese form a rind. Using foil or air tight package, you'll deprive the blue mold with oxygen. This in turn will give the blue cheese a different flavor profile. Here's a quote from faribaultdairy
"In order to create the "complex, complicated yet delightfully intimate"™ flavor of Amablu® the cheese are carefully ripened in three distinct phases. The first phase is the initial ripening which takes place in the Salting Room. During this phase the P. rocquefortii becomes active and spreads throughout the cheese as colorless mycelia – the vegetative stage.
The second phase of ripening occurs in the Cure Cave. During this phase the blue cheese wheels are placed in special food grade plastic crates that allow the air to circulate freely around and through the cheese (the cheese wheels are "punched" with special stainless steel needles to provide openings to the interior of the cheese). The environment in the Cure Cave is ideal for promoting the growth of the blue veining. The Cure Cave has the delightfully fresh fragrance of an earthy garden in spring.
As the veining grows the P. rocuqefortii mature and develop fruiting bodies (sporocysts). It is the fruiting bodies that give blue cheese its characteristic blue green veining.
After ripening to the desired degree the cheese are placed in special hygienic pouches, sealed and moved to the Ageing Cave. During this phase the P. rocuefortii is deprived of oxygen and "goes to sleep". Flavor development slowly continues as complex interactions occur between the starter culture bacteria derivatives and the mold metabolites. (See Frank Kosikowski's classic "Cheese and Fermented Milk Foods" for a thorough account of the processes – and some pictures of our caves!)
The sleeping mold slowly loses its color in the absence of oxygen, going from blue – green to green to yellow. Amablu "St. Pete's Select" is cave aged over 100 days. So, if your wheel of St. Pete's has yellowish veining it's simply assuring you that it is well aged! Allow the cheese to "breathe" at room temperature for 30 minutes and watch the blue green color magically restore as the P. roquefortii awakens."
Quote from: Aris on September 02, 2011, 07:50:54 PM
Dry salted blue cheeses tends to have thinner rinds like Bleu D' Auvergne and Fourme d'Ambert compared to Stilton and their rind is very edible unlike Stilton. Also being wrapped in foil helps to get a thin wet rind. While Gorgonzola, after dry salting, is washed with brine during aging. I dont know when and how many times they brine wash it. This is why Gorgonzola has almost no rind and has the best tasting outer surface i've ever tasted, taste better than the paste itself imo. With Roquefort, they wrap it in aluminum foil after 1 month in the cave and age it for 3 months. This is the reason Roquefort has no rind and is moist. Some cheeses use Natamycin to inhibit mold growth to get a clean rind.
Interesting Aris. The recipe I used for Fourme D'Ambert doesn't include dry salting - just brining, air drying, and then ripening in the cave and allowing the molds to cover the surface. Do you suggest I start brine washing it or simply let the molds take over?
Here is a video on how they make Fourme D'Ambert > Fourme d'ambert (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exRDLQOv6e4#)
If you understand french the better.
Regarding your question, i think you should just leave it alone. Next time you when make another Fourme D'Ambert, follow your recipe but instead of brining, dry salt it. My rule of thumb is, 1 tablespoon kosher salt for every pound of curd.
Thank you Aris. I will definitely dry salt next time - and thank you for your ratio!
Aris, I'm concerned about the use of foil to wrap the cheese. The commercial cheeseries probably use some specially coated foil, right? Otherwise, I would expect some leaching of aluminum into the cheese because of the inherent acid in the paste. I certainly do not want any aluminum in my cheese.
Would vacuum-sealing give the same performance as the foil?
For giving me fresh eyes on this cheese style, have a cheese.
-Boofer-
I read they use tin foil, i dont know if tin foil reacts to acid like aluminum. Since blue cheese as it ages, the ph increases dramatically especially the rind maybe that will prevent a bad reaction with the aluminum foil. Maybe aluminum foil can tolerate a certain ph. I think in just 1 week, the surface ph of a blue cheese can increase dramatically and with Roquefort, they wrap after a month. To answer your question, yes since that's what Sailor Con Queso do to his blue cheeses and he has been successful with it.
Would it stand to reason that if in fact you were to use alluminum foil, you should not was the rind with a brine solution, since this would remove the protective PR layer and lower the pH to the surface. Also, the wash will most likely raise surface salinity which would react with the aluminum. Has anyone ever taken surface pH of one of these cheeses. I am approaching the one month stage on my Gorgonzola, and would like to try one of these methods, either wash the rind and leave open or wrap in foil. Thanks
Whats the deal with the sad french music in the clip ? very depressing for adverising something as wonderful as cheese.
Quote from: george13 on September 03, 2011, 10:23:48 AM
Would it stand to reason that if in fact you were to use alluminum foil, you should not was the rind with a brine solution, since this would remove the protective PR layer and lower the pH to the surface. Also, the wash will most likely raise surface salinity which would react with the aluminum. Has anyone ever taken surface pH of one of these cheeses. I am approaching the one month stage on my Gorgonzola, and would like to try one of these methods, either wash the rind and leave open or wrap in foil. Thanks
Since the pH of the cheese has already increased because of the actions of certain micro organisms, i dont see why the pH will suddenly go down because of brine washing (salt and water solution). Unless you wash it with vinegar. Besides Gorgonzola has no PR layer, from what i've eaten and seen anyway. From the Gorgonzola production video i've seen, they wrap it in aluminum foil after aging it. Dolce 2 months and 3 months for Piccante.
Heres the video of Gorgonzola Production
Video Industriale Invernizzi Si Gorgonzola Produzione Formaggio Gorgonzola (Galliano 2009) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSZ6wMPHns#)
That is a very nice clip, I wish my Gorgonzola looked like that. Anyway, perhaps I used too much PR, but I have a blue mould on the outside of my cheese. I will try to wash it today. As you have stated, I too have never seen Gorgonzola with a mouldy rind. The outside was always clean for the most part.
Quote from: Aris on September 03, 2011, 02:49:23 PM
they wrap it in aluminum foil after aging it.
Very thorough, inspiring, clear video. There is a distinction to be made between aluminum foils. The type that is used in food wrapping is heavier and may be coated with a plastic inner lining to shield the food from direct contact with the foil. The type of consumer grade,
every day use, foil is thinner and not meant for long-term storage of foods, IMHO.
There is one use that I personally observed where a pumpkin custard pie was covered with Reynolds (well-known, long-time commercial U.S. brand) aluminum foil the day before a Thanksgiving meal. The day of the meal, I noticed a couple small holes had opened where the foil had touched the top of the pie. It was clear that had occurred because of the pie filling. The filling was not highly acidic.
I would suggest caution to any cheesemakers following the wrap-in-foil technique. Sorry, I don't want to appear as though I'm running through the streets yelling "the sky is falling!" ::) I just think that's a possible problem. One alternative is vacuum-sealing.
-Boofer-
Since I am at the juncture, where I need to do something in the form of wrapping my Gorgonzola in the next couple of days, I need some clarification. Is the purpose of wrapping in tin to limit the amount of air and in turn to lessen if not eliminate the formation of surface mould? if so, why can't plastic wrapping achieve the same objective, or what if I line my aluminum foil with plastic wrap. In all honesty, I too am a bit leary about aluminum foil directly on my cheese. Please let me know your views on doing the double wrap. Thanks