Not to be undone by a cheese I'm thrice attempting to create camembert. Today I'm also mixing it up a little. The first two didn't work. First (GLA) was too wet and they just spread all over the place. The second by Ricki Carroll were way too firm and didn't ripen. I think the issue with the second one was the amount of mould so today I'm going to be a bit more liberal. Also, reduce the Flora Danica to half a dose and include a ½ dose of MO 030 to address the over acidification.
So Today I'm using Tim Smiths recipe and method, the changes are
1. ½ and ½ MO 0030 and Flora Danica
2. Liquid rennet
3. 5 to 1 mix of P.Candidum and G.Candidum
4. 1/4 tsp Calcium Chloride.
Camembert cheese seems to have more recipes than other cheeses. So, this is Tim's recipe to which I will add my adjustments.
Comment please and welcome
8 litres whole milk
¼ tsp Calcium Chloride dissolved in ¼ cup de-chlorinated water
8 tablespoons of mother culture or ¼ teaspoon Mesophilic direct set culture.
(Variation 1/2 dose GLA Flora Danica and MO 030)
1/8 tsp Penicillium Candidum
(5:1 P.Candidum and G.Candidum – 1(for 8 litres) dose of P-'Drop' and an eyeball 1/5th of G.Candidum )
The reason for this is that the G. Candidum helps prevent skin slippage. I am yet to confirm this effect on mine but 4 week and I'll know.
¼ tsp liquid rennet or ¼ rennet tablet diluted in ¼ cup of distilled water.
Cheese salt.
(Variation going to brine in 18% solution for 6 hours then air drain/dry before placing in the maturation boxes)
8:30 Milk warming to target temperature
9:22 Added Calcium Chloride, ½ and ½ MO030 and Flora Danica, and 5 to 1 P.C and G.C
Heat the milk to 90oF (32oF), then add the starter culture and the white mold(both if using).
Let ripen for 90 minutes.
More @ 11 - ish plus photos (I Hope).
G'day Ozziecheese,
I'm making Cams again today also. I'm using the traditional recipe from carol Wilman's book Home Cheesemaking. It uses a meso starter culture, and I use liquid rennet. You have asked me about brining before.....I can say that your brine time looks way too long. I brine mine in 25% brine for around 1 hour for a 250g cheese.
Critical to making cams, IMHO, is the amount of stirring after cutting and the length of time before moulding. too much stirring and the curd gets too dry (this can be adjusted by cutting a little larger), too little and the cheese will be too moist.
Draining time is also critical, and is best done at higher temps 25 - 30C), good now that summer is approaching. Some recvipes I have seen suggest draining for up to 48 hours. yuo need to get the PH down and the moisture out before maturing. If not, the cheese will be very soft (sounds like you have seen this before) and will ripen VERY quickly, getting ammoniated and liquid under the rind.
Anyway, have to go now and add my starter, good luck! :)
Thanks for the brining time adjustment I might have had hard lump again. 16 minutes to rennet and today is also my first using liquid rennet and the floc method. After reading more here I get the feeling that between 5 and 6 multiplier is a good start. I'll go for X5 with a 1.5cm curd size with stirring 15 minutes and resting for 15 before draining.
Brissy is at approx 23-25 today and a bit humid so sounds about perfect for an over night draining and boxing tomorrow.
I'm using the flocculation method to determine curd cutting time and @ 9-12minutes would be good and a 5 times multiplier.
I actually got a Floc time of 14 minutes therefore 5 times equals 1 hour from the rennet added time of 10:55 and curd cutting will be @ 11:55
Hi OzzieCheese,
14 min floc is good, that's in the "sweet spot" of 10-15 minutes. A smidge more rennet will put you closer to the shorter end. Keep good notes on how much rennet you added and your floc time, and you'll get really good consistent makes once you've got it dialed in. There will be some fluxuation, due to changes in milk quality and such, but you'll get your floc times in the zone most every time after a couple makes. It's also a good way to keep things consistent if you change rennets; once you dial in your new rennet to the same floc times then things should remain fairly consistent.
- Jeff
P.S. a Cheese for your floc success
Noticed my mistake before damage was done...
I actually got a Floc time of 14 minutes therefore 5 times equals 1 hour and 10 minutes from the rennet added time of 10:55 and curd cutting will be @ 12:05.
12:05 Looked not quite a set as I would like but tested for a clean break and still not set so I will take it out to the 5.5 multiplier and re-test at 12:12
The curd tested beautifully and cut cleanly. 15 minute stirring results with a nice yellow whey being expelled and it looks like retained as much of the butter fat I could.
So the 5.5 multiplier was good. Resting again for 15 minutes and then to hooping. I'll try and attach images but I don't seem to manage that from here. Slow connection or something :)
Ahhhh! Thanks for the cheese. I'm getting there :)
Thanks for the posting. I've tried cams twice now with mixed results. It's helpful to have the your recipe and commentary. I'm waiting until the calf is weaned and I have more milk before I try them again.
I'm glad someone has benefitted from this and Oh BTW I'm ExtrEEEEmly jealous you have 'real' milk. Oh well you work with what you have. No use blaming the tools...
I hope the following images post as I've had no joy posting images. They should be
Just after the curd cut and first stir.
settling under the whey (love the colour)
hooped out and draining. the 8 litres filled the 4 hoops perfectly.
Let see what happens. :)
Woot ! Image success . . . I'll post progress imges as they become available. I will master this cheese, it might take a couple more goes but I feel confident this time.. Stay tuned.
Looking good Ozziecheese, will be hooping mine in 15 minutes. Had a very nice set and curds looking good. Lovely clear, greenish whey.
Yo Bob . . . sound like sucess to me. It would be great to see some images and compare make notes.. Mine have already settled nearly 1 inch in 40 minutes. Air temp 24 degrees and looking good. Time to wash up and vino...
8)
Here are some photos Ozziecheese. I also have plenty of other photos on my previous posts "Making Camembert Today" started in September.
Curd weight is very high, this recipe seems to hold a lot of moisture, so I'm pleased we have a warm (25 C) day down here today to help the draining.
Wine o'clock sounds good 8) 8)
oooooh they look nice. not fair you get 6 :) Now for the nervous part . . . the first flip . . . if you don't hear from me again they have split and I have gone to the pub never again to make camembert.
Well . . . . I'm still here. This is like 10 pin bowling, just when you are sure it is not going to plan you get a strike . . 4 perfect drops. Looks like it's up to the fungus gods from here.
Hope yours do as well.
this is my flipping rig ---- cheese board,sushi mat, cheese hoops, sushi mat and another cheese board. all together now 1 . . . . 2 . . . . .3 Flip damn you flip ! Now Drop ... please drop and if you can see to it.. all in one piece.
Whew! I ask myself sometimes is this all worth it and then I look at the faces consuming my 'Art' and I go 'Hell yeah!'
Yes, I'm aiming for a slightly thinner cam this time, around 200g each, so there are 6 moulds. I use fresh milk, so my yield may be a little higher.
I turn mine one at a time, using a cloth over the top. Don't really have any issues with Cam hoops. Sometimes they take some time to drop, but that is usually towards the end of the drain time and they are quite firm by then.
The final make stage. This time I am brining the cams in a 25% brine for 1 hour before I leave them drain over night. This is a complete day of making 4 cheeses and what a wonderful way to relax. As they mature I'll post some more images.
-- Mal
They look good Mal. :)
Next step is to leave them out to dry, need to dry off all surplus moisture. The cheese will actually start to look 'shiny" when it is nice and dry. Then into the maturing container with a little moisture under the rack to get the humidity up. You can use the brine drainings for the moisture.
My cams look good this morning, just over the 200g target. Will brine them in another couple of hours and then dry. Will post some photos. This warmer weather is great for cheesemaking! 8)
I just realised something. I flipped them 6 times(once every hour) last night and brined them for an hour and then let them drain over night. I had market duty today. Then they went into the maturation boxes first thing this morning. They did look nice and shiny and seemed not to have expelled any more whey. Is this Ok? My last lot were dripping from the day I made them to the day chucked them. These ones smell sweet, they feel firm, dropped well and drained well and were made with a better attitude I think. :)
Would the sequence make a difference ? Between your and mine ?
Hope they work this time as I would like these for Christmas . . .
--Mal
No mate, sounds good. I drain mine after hooping for at least 20 hours, longer if it is cool. By then they will have pretty well stopped expelling whey. I then brine, usually the next day after make (today I brined at 12:30, 22 hours draining time). warm again today, so thay me be dry enough to put in their maturing containers tonight, otherwise first thing tomorrow morning. I have ended up with 6 cheeses, weighing between 210g and 228g
Heres some photos of the cheeses brining and drying.
Keep a close eye on them now as the mould grows. You want the mould to develop slowly at first. Initially (say 4-5 days) you should see some light tan coloured, short, geo growing, before the PC startes to take over. They should be fully covered in 8-10 days. If you see any signs of wrinkley skin developing, drop the temperature immediately, as it means the cheese is maturing way too fast.
Keep posting photos so we can follow progress. :D
Mal,
How are your cams going. I hope you have got some mould starting to happen now?
I have posted a couple of photos of my cams tonight so you can see how they are going. They are not as sharp as I would have liked, but you can see the mould growth starting to happen. All looking good so far.
Looking good, Bob.
-Boofer-
Yo back in cheese mode....
My cams have started sprouting little white bits.. Like a teens first face fuzz. I dont have any of the nice G.C action happening and not as advanced P.C activity as yours. I'm starting to wonder on the viability of my mold cultures. This activity is better than last time so I'm still confident of a better result than last time. I'll post pics in a bit. Need to go and buy milk and I'm doing a Colby today.
-- Mal
Here are the latest images. Not a lot of action going on, a little but not a much as Bobs'. Do I need to do anything else
They look fine Mal, just be patient. What temp is your container at? Mine range from 9-12C. Make sure there is a little water in the base, under the rack and keep the lid and vent fully closed. I usually see a little moisture on the lid and sides of the container, like condensation.
I also put a little PC and Geo in my brine, which might explain the early growth of mould. I see I forgot to mention that last weekend in my brining instructions, sorry. :-[
Hi Bob,
I have my 'cave' 12C and there is a nice whisp of condensation in the tubs without being too wet so I think that is Ok. No probs I thought if you added P and G.C to salt water it killed them.. I'll have to set up a separate brine bath for more cams by the look of it. Would there be any benefit now in trying to set a spray bottle with some P.C and give it dusting or just leave well alone seening as ther is something happening. Would be nice if these were ready for Xmas. Just putting todays make (colby) into the press, had a nice day. One thing I've discovered, or should I say re-discovered - my music collection 8)
--Mal
I'd leave them alone Mal. If the mould is starting then just be patient. I wouldn't interfere with them by spraying them.
Christmas is 7 weeks from your make date so should be fine. I get a fair bit of variation in maturation times, probablt due to my experimentation with moisture levels. I have some cams from 17th Sept (8 weeks today) that are still firm and no sign of ammoniation yet. They are 250g and quite thick. My cams from 8th October (5 weeks old today) are thinner, and seem to be ripening quicker, but I'm sure they also have more moisture in them.
I have mostly made cams so having some mould in the brine has not been a problem. Made sure I made a new batch for storing my Fetta! ;) You could always boil it which would deactivate the mould.
Well then I will leave well enough alone. I suppose these cheeses are made with a little bit of trust. Thrust that the little bugs will do what they do best..
OzzieCheese,
I think your cheeses look good. I would be careful with too much moisture in the ripening box. I flip my cams and wipe out the box daily to prevent the dreaded slip-skin from occurring. I think yours look good. I have never brined my cams, but sprinkle the salt directly on them. I should try it sometime.
Good luck with your cheeses. When I saw your picture on your posts I thought I was looking at my brother's twin! Wow, you really look like him. :o
Bonnie
Hahahaha thats funny, I thought I was the only one who looked like my Dad. I wonder what he's been doin' *JKS*.
Just had a look and there seems to be enough moisture in the tubs so I'll leave them for a couple more days to get really going and turn them over.
Well the cams are now at the 2 week mark and there is not a lot of activity and the covering is not very thick. I have 2 cams per ripening box and the boxex get wiped out every 2 days. The Cave is a constant 15 C with a bowl of water providing the humidity. Any recommendations on whether these will work or am I heading for another failure.
-- Mal
Mal,
I must admit to being surprised at the lack of mould growth on your cheeses. It sounds like you are doing everything right to me. Lack of mould is usually caused by:
- Low Temp - 15C is fine
- Low humidity - your method sounds fine. Some forum members also reccommend a damp cloth in the container to give more surface area for moisture evaporation
- Insufficient mould - I assume you added mould at the pre-ripening stage? How much? I usually add about 1/10th teaspoon.
- Mould not viable - How old is your mould and how do you store it?
I would not give up yet. Do you have any mould growth at all? Maybe you just have the short, slow growing Geo and your PC is not viable? You could try mixing some boiled, cooled water with a little PC and spraying it onto the cheese and maturing longer. The only real issue with maturing longer at 15C is the cheese will ripen a little quicker, but otherwise, it is not a problem. Maybe you can get some new PC or even rub your cheeses with a fresh bought camembert and store it in the container with your cheese?
I'm thinking pretty laterally here, so these ideas might be a bit crazy, but I think worth a try. You have put so much effort into these cheeses already, it would be a shame to give up now. :) Post a photo if possible.
Hi Bob..
•Low Temp - 15C is fine
I did some cave maintenance and defrosted the back and added flat shelves over the bottle holders.
•Low humidity - your method sounds fine. Some forum members also reccommend a damp cloth in the container to give more surface area for moisture evaporation
There is always some condensation inside the maturing boxes so I presume they are moist enough.
•Insufficient mould - I assume you added mould at the pre-ripening stage? How much? I usually add about 1/10th teaspoon.
The packet directions said to divide packet contents evenly and there is enough for 100 Litres of milk which worked out to 1/64th of a teaspoon. I'm thinking that is insufficient
•Mould not viable - How old is your mould and how do you store it?
The moulds are only 3 months old and I keep them in the freezer.
Mal,
They still look really good! There seems to be some growth on them, not the longer PC that I see, but possibly mostly Geo, which will make for a very unique style of Cam. There are good examples, both locally and in France of styles using primarly Geo. (It is a lot more temperamental and maturing conditions are harder to get right).
I use the same maturing containers and they look just the same, a small amount of condensation on the lids. Recipes usually say the amount of PC you add is not important, but I do make sure there is sufficient and I add it to the brine as well.
I would keep persisting, the cheeses look fine. When you think there is enough mould, place in the 4C fridge. You could even experimemt with some of them, placing in the fridge at different times.
Nice cheese cave! ;) Unusual place to store your toothbrush though!
Opps... Well really though I was using the toothbrush for some cheese Maintenance. I had developed a load of blue on a drying Colby before waxing so I thought it might as well stay there ... I wouldn't fancy using it as a toothbrush after that :o
I'll persevere with them this time, this time I'll only wrap two and leave the other free ball. Made a Manchego today but I'll start a new post for that one.. There are few observations that I would like to pass on..
We'll keep this thread going as I'm keen to see where your go compared to mine. Post images when you are able. On the P.C. front I'm going to quiz my supplier on the batches and if anyone else has experience the 'slow growth' . Time to flip the 'Man' !!
-- Mal
OK Mal, good luck with the cams.
Here are some photos of my 5/11 cams when I wrapped them last Friday. You can see how thick my mould is by the impressions on the mould, from my fingers picking up the cheese. These cheeses all turned out at 200g, +/- 6g so pretty pleased with that. I'm hoping they don't mature too fast now, being thinner than my usual cams.
I will also post some photos of my earlier cams, did some tasting today. (See my post started 17/9..."Making Cams today")
After being away for 2 weeks the grand USofA I returned to the Land of Oz and to my humble home and unattended cheese cave. There was trepidation and concern on my wife''s face as she peered in, not game to open it. Before I left I had just finished a weeks air drying of a Caerphilly and Manchegos of varing ages. But the cheeses I was most anxious to see was these cams and alas, the same firm result as the last attempts. These haven't been wrapped and just left in the maturing boxes for th entire time. The smell was mushroomy and no ammoniation but, the cheese was firm and I mean FIRM. I took one out and let it achieve room temperature and then cut it open. It did have a nice and complete rind but the paste inside was white and firm with no sign of ozzyiness. The taste was creamy and a little bit bitter. And it went to the bin and so did my dream of Christmas Cams . . . :( Any one have any ideas ?
I still have 3 of the batch in containers . . . Do I keep them or do I give it up as a bad cheese and try again.
-- Mal
Hey Mal, welcome back! You're not having much luck with your cams are you mate. :(
Can you post some pics of the cut cheese? My thermo cams remain firm for a long time, in fact I have one from the 17th September (yes..... thats now 16 weeks old!) that has just softened, but of course the rind has started to bereak down too much. I think I stirred that one too much ;)Thats the
But your recipe was definitley a meso wasn't it? I am still suspicious of your moulds, which must be active to asisst with the ripening through to the centre. You should at least see some softening under the rind?
Anyway, my 5/11 cams are doing quite nicely. Cut one 2 weeks ago, not soft all the way through at that stage, still has a firm centre section. I'll post some photos of the next one I cut tomorrow.
Hi Mal,
As Bob says, thermo cams don't really go soft and runny the way the meso ones do. It's been about a year since I've made cams, but when I did they were thermo ones and the only one that went soft was a large flat one that I aged for a couple months. By that point, however, it was only good for a very short period and then went bitter and eventually became inedible.
- Jeff
Yeah the Culture was Meso and I'm also on the path to getting another batch as I think to only mold active is teh G.C but not being a mirco biologist I can't tell. While they still appear white and don't start acting up I'll keep them in their maturing boxes. I'm not giving up on these just yet. Merry Christmas to all and cheesy new year !! O0
-- Mal
Hi Mal,
Hmmm, if you think it's your mold, you could try harvesting some from a bought cam. I saw on one of your other posts you bought some cam for Christams. Ok, take a wedge that you would put on a cracker. Carefully remove the white rind, without taking any of the cheese. Put the mold in a sterlised glass with some warm water (say, 25 C) and bash it about with a sterilised fork. Mash it about until the water is cloudy. Remove any solid bits of the rind that are floating in the water. Pour that in with your starter. This is what I've always done to get PC going on my cheese as I don't make them enough to bother keeping mold in the freezer. It's never failed to grow, and it ripens the cheese nicely. If you keep some of the cloudy water in a mister, you could spray your cheeses with it as well.
- Jeff
who makes those Awesome ripping containers Ozzie!? They look like a vast improvement over my home made junk!
The ripening containers are a 'Decor' brand. They make Our supermarket chain 'Coles' stocks them, I'm unsure what is available in the USA. Here is their web site http://decor.com.au/ (http://decor.com.au/)
@ Jeff Sorry but the bought Cam was eaten with much gusto, but I will try your method on another.
For ripening containers in the USA try http://www.containerstore.com/ecatalog/index.htm (http://www.containerstore.com/ecatalog/index.htm)
The Decor web site lists them as U.S distributor. I couldn't find the items in their catalog so you might have to call them..
-- Mal