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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Lactic Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Boofer on November 21, 2011, 03:43:43 PM

Title: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on November 21, 2011, 03:43:43 PM
Chaource #1. My first semi-lactic. Quite a bit different than any of the other cheese styles I have tried. I drew upon three different recipes: one from iratherfly, one from Margaret Morris's book, and one from 200 Easy Cheeses. The last two were similar.

There are two pics of the kettle with gelled curd in it. The first one shows whey on the surface. Not too long after that I took the next pic which shows the whey at the same level as the curd.

I will post the recipe later, but for now let me just say that I learned a few things with this style and make. There are still a few troublesome issues lingering:
So the little cheeses are in their minicave in the black cave, doing their thing. This will also be a first for me. The cheeses are supposedly edible in two weeks, but better after four weeks. Normally, I don't see (or taste) results for a couple of months following a make. The holidays will hopefully be quite tasty this season.  8)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: JeffHamm on November 21, 2011, 10:28:43 PM
They look good Boofer!  These semi-lactics are a very different beast.  Look forward to see how your adventures go. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: anutcanfly on November 21, 2011, 11:48:06 PM
I might have to give Chaource a try...  It will be nice to see how yours come out.  :)
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on November 24, 2011, 07:46:35 AM
Calibrated ExStik

2 gallons whole cream line Twin Brook Creamery milk
1/8 tsp Aroma B
1/16 tsp MA4001
1/8 tsp PC
1/16 tsp Geo 13
1/32 tsp dry calf rennet

Nov 18, 2011
7:55AM - heated milk to 77°F; pH 6.90.
7:55 - sprinkled cultures on milk, allowed to rehydrate.
8:00 – stirred in cultures.
11:00 – 75.2°F; pH 6.85
4:45PM - 78°F; pH 5.15 . . . quite a bit lower than I wanted.
4:50 – added rennet to cool distilled water; stirred in; cream had formed a semi-scab on surface.
7:50 – 78.5°F; pH 4.90; ½ inch of standing whey on surface (pics).
9:50 - 77°F; pH 4.70; curds have risen in pot so that welled whey is more shallow.
10:15 - 77°F; pH 4.66; began scooping curds to small Bûcheron molds.

Nov 19, 2011
1:45AM – finished filling last of curds into molds; put filled molds into cleaned pot, and the pot back into the double boiler to preserve heat and moisture while the curds drain.
7:30 - 73°F; pH 4.34; flipped molds; firmer...nice knit on bottom which is now the top; emptied whey.
11:30 – drained & flipped; less collected whey in pot.
3:00PM – drained & flipped.
7:15 – removed molds; ½ of each cheese has gaps between curds; I decided to cut each cheese in half, making four Crottin-size cheeses and at least creating two pristine, well-knitted cheeses. Salted the tops of all four cheeses with ½ tsp coarse salt and placed all four into minicave (pics). Placed minicave into white cave. Minicave lid is closed.

Nov 20, 2011
flipped and salted other side of all four cheeses.

Nov 21, 2011
flipped cheeses

Nov 22, 2011
flipped cheeses; some Geo or PC showing now.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: vertlook on November 25, 2011, 12:41:26 AM
Looks good Boofer,
I started it last night myself, it is draining now.
I make it every 2-3 weeks, it is a great cheese to eat just after two weeks, but if you let it age for 4-5 weeks it's  heaven.
Super rich and creamy, while halving a low fat content.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Tomer1 on November 25, 2011, 05:34:58 AM
Your curds looked much firmer then my attempt... :)
I think predraining the curds in a cheese cloth before hooping is an easier way of working as some dear member of the forum suggested.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on November 25, 2011, 06:26:41 AM
Quote from: vertlook on November 25, 2011, 12:41:26 AM
I make it every 2-3 weeks, it is a great cheese to eat just after two weeks, but if you let it age for 4-5 weeks it's  heaven.
Super rich and creamy, while halving a low fat content.
Sounds good. With whole cream line milk how is it low fat?

Quote from: Tomer1 on November 25, 2011, 05:34:58 AM
Your curds looked much firmer then my attempt... :)
I think predraining the curds in a cheese cloth before hooping is an easier way of working as some dear member of the forum suggested.
Actually, my curds were very wet and sloppy. Doesn't that show in the pic? So wet that it came out the mold drainage holes.

What recipe are you two using?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Tomer1 on November 25, 2011, 03:54:14 PM
Non really, I just add calcium ,ripen for 2-4 hours with probat 222 , tiny bit of rennet and wait for ph to reach about 4.6 which at this time of year (temps are down a bit) takes about 16-18 hours and drain.
Last one had to be dried for 4 days at room temp before it was firm enough to dry salt.

Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: george on November 26, 2011, 10:57:03 AM
Hey Boofer, I just noticed something in the background of one of your pics - the Morton kosher salt.  Doesn't that have some additive in it (keeping it "pourable" or whatever they call it).  Around here it does, so I get the big boxes of Diamond Crystal.  Can you get that around there?

Just wondering.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on November 26, 2011, 08:45:02 PM
Quote from: george (MaryJ) on November 26, 2011, 10:57:03 AM
Hey Boofer, I just noticed something in the background of one of your pics - the Morton kosher salt.  Doesn't that have some additive in it (keeping it "pourable" or whatever they call it).  Around here it does, so I get the big boxes of Diamond Crystal.  Can you get that around there?

Just wondering.
Ingredients are limited to salt. Also because it's coarse, there's little concern that it won't pour.

In 1911, Morton created free-flowing salt by adding magnesium carbonate as an absorbing element.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: george on November 27, 2011, 10:08:06 AM
Oh.  Oops, sorry, never mind, forget I asked. ;)  I'll have to look again next time I'm in a grocery store, maybe it's not the coarse that they sell here in that box, maybe it IS "kosher" and that's the difference.  Only reason I really remember it is because once I bought it and only realized halfway through the box that it had the additive.

1911, huh?  Always a fount of miscellaneous facts, Boofer.   :)
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on November 28, 2011, 02:24:50 AM
Quote from: george (MaryJ) on November 27, 2011, 10:08:06 AM
1911, huh?  Always a fount of miscellaneous facts, Boofer.   :)
At your service, MaryJ.  ;)

Got some serious fuzz going on now. Even the cut ends are responding well. Seems like a little wrinkle to the rind under the fuzz...maybe slipskin. We'll see.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: anutcanfly on November 28, 2011, 05:29:38 PM
They are looking very edible!  :P
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on November 28, 2011, 10:48:38 PM
Boofer - nice going! and thanks for putting my recipe in MS word format. I did forget the part about moving it to the fridge though...
By the looks of it they look very nice but I am slightly concerned that it's growing too fast and you get that gummy skin. Is the skin tight? If so -ignore my comment.  Which PC strain did you use? Are they refrigerated now?

George (MaryJ) - I saw that too. I don't use Morton for the very same reason; artificial anti caking agents. I use Diamond brand because it's pure.  Morton however is a national brand and may be made differently in different places so I am not sure; maybe it is sold additive free where Boofer is?

Tomer - you are right. Boofer and I had some back and forth about the type of rennet he is using (very strong powder) and the temperature setting (I voted for 72°F and the other recipes were 77°F). This makes for a slightly stiffer curd. This is still going to turn out very good I am sure.

Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on November 29, 2011, 03:27:23 AM
Quote from: iratherfly on November 28, 2011, 10:48:38 PM
Boofer - nice going! and thanks for putting my recipe in MS word format. I did forget the part about moving it to the fridge though...
By the looks of it they look very nice but I am slightly concerned that it's growing too fast and you get that gummy skin. Is the skin tight? If so -ignore my comment.  Which PC strain did you use? Are they refrigerated now?

Yes, they are refrigerated now. Sorry, I'm not at home as I write this so I can't say which PC. As I mentioned, there may be a little slack in the skin. I'm trying to monitor it, but I have been away from home most of the time since last Sunday, only breaking away every couple days to shower, tend to my Chaource and Esrom, and then return. What takes me away at such a crucial time? My father burned his face and the backs of his hands on Nov 20th. He was involved in a car explosion and fire. I have been camping out in his house tending to his bandaging and his needs. He was very lucky and should be okay in a couple weeks (as okay as 88 years will permit).

Quote from: iratherfly on November 28, 2011, 10:48:38 PMGeorge (MaryJ) - I saw that too. I don't use Morton for the very same reason; artificial anti caking agents. I use Diamond brand because it's pure.  Morton however is a national brand and may be made differently in different places so I am not sure; maybe it is sold additive free where Boofer is?

Morton produces a number of additive-free products, including the Kosher coarse salt and pickling salt. They have also recently jumped on the sea salt bandwagon and moved in that direction. Again...additive-free. Just sea salt. I don't use their sea salt but have used the other two for some years.

Quote from: iratherfly on November 28, 2011, 10:48:38 PMTomer - you are right. Boofer and I had some back and forth about the type of rennet he is using (very strong powder) and the temperature setting (I voted for 72°F and the other recipes were 77°F). This makes for a slightly stiffer curd. This is still going to turn out very good I am sure.
This was my first effort at a semi-lactic. A starting point. With some hindsight, I now see areas where I can tweak my recipe and technique...that is, if these turn out reasonably edible. I would use a lower temp and a lot less rennet and I would most likely predrain the curds before molding them.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: JeffHamm on November 29, 2011, 05:06:01 AM
Hi Boofer,

Sorry to hear about your dad, but glad that he's recovering!  the cheeses look great.  The skin on my semi-lactic got a bit wrinkly, and it was runny under the skin, but it didn't slip off.  I didn't move it into a colder fridge though, whihc would have slowed down the ripening.  Mind you, I wanted it to run. :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on November 29, 2011, 05:31:49 AM
Oh my, I am so sorry to hear about your dad! Wish him the best!

Yes, the pre-drain is important because lactic curd is heavily hydrated and it keeps drying out and shrinking by an additional 30% or so within the first week. If the rind had began to form (which could happen very quickly, twice as fast as a Camembert sometimes) and the paste continues to shrink than you get this thick strong rind which was originally formed tightly over a large curd mass but is now that the curd mass has shrunk it is lose, possibly trapping air pockets or worst - trapping a runny layer.  This isn't a good runny. This is geo with all of its unwanted bitterness. The rind will be tough and plasticy, it could peel or detach easily and feel like a chewing gum in your mouth.

A good pre-drain will prevent it. You can also prevent it by doing the moulding, draining and drying of the cheese in the cave (or fridge). The cool temperature will slow down rind formation so the body gets a chance to shrink before forming a rind.

Alternatively, you may use a strain of PC that is slower and not so aggressive and avoid geo.
Technique wise, you may tap and tighten the cheese in the first few days when you do your daily turns
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on November 29, 2011, 07:31:51 AM
Quote from: iratherfly on November 29, 2011, 05:31:49 AM
Oh my, I am so sorry to hear about your dad! Wish him the best!

Yes, the pre-drain is important because lactic curd is heavily hydrated and it keeps drying out and shrinking by an additional 30% or so within the first week. If the rind had began to form (which could happen very quickly, twice as fast as a Camembert sometimes) and the paste continues to shrink than you get this thick strong rind which was originally formed tightly over a large curd mass but is now that the curd mass has shrunk it is lose, possibly trapping air pockets or worst - trapping a runny layer.  This isn't a good runny. This is geo with all of its unwanted bitterness. The rind will be tough and plasticy, it could peel or detach easily and feel like a chewing gum in your mouth.

A good pre-drain will prevent it. You can also prevent it by doing the moulding, draining and drying of the cheese in the cave (or fridge). The cool temperature will slow down rind formation so the body gets a chance to shrink before forming a rind.

Alternatively, you may use a strain of PC that is slower and not so aggressive and avoid geo.
Technique wise, you may tap and tighten the cheese in the first few days when you do your daily turns
Thank you both for your kind words. He's a tough old independent guy.

Yoav, thanks for the chewing gum description of a possible rind creation. I tried to follow the mould, drain, dry in an abbreviated session...then into the cave to continue slow ripening and continued draining & drying. When I turn them, I gently pat down the PC. For me, this is an introductory lesson in lactics. What works and what doesn't.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on November 29, 2011, 10:27:40 PM
Yes, if not with this one, you will get the hang of it within a batch or two. It's super easy cheese and it's 1% fabrication 99% affinage.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on December 01, 2011, 08:01:41 AM
Quote from: george (MaryJ) on November 26, 2011, 10:57:03 AM
Hey Boofer, I just noticed something in the background of one of your pics - the Morton kosher salt.  Doesn't that have some additive in it (keeping it "pourable" or whatever they call it).  Around here it does, so I get the big boxes of Diamond Crystal.  Can you get that around there?

Just wondering.
I stand corrected. The Morton Kosher salt does contain an anti-caking agent. How silly...of them, but especially of me for not being more observant. The Morton pickling salt specifically states on the box that it contains just salt. Well, that's something else I can improve upon. Thanks, MaryJ, for giving me the slap in the back of my head.  :)

Oh these little gems promise a lot of delight at the end of the month. It does seem like there is some play in the rind. I am very careful when dislodging them from the plastic grid below. If I'm not careful, I could very easily push my finger through or slide some rind off. It also looks like my SR3 may have jumped ship when I was checking out the Esrom at the same time. Seems like there's a little linens color here.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on December 02, 2011, 07:34:18 AM
Seriously man, how do you use gloves on food you should be eating?  O0

I think the yellow is geo. Cool them down rapidly and keep them cool until you eat them.  This rind play is the only thing to overcome with these and once you eliminate it this will be an incredible cheese. Unfortunately with the rind play you often get these geo infestations and you get an under-ripened interior which goes gooey and bitter outward.  This is such easy cheese to actually make but it's all about getting the affinage right with it. 1-2 more batches and it will be really great.

By the way, if you like St. Marcellin, the recipe is actually not too far off this one.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on December 02, 2011, 08:40:39 AM
Quote from: iratherfly on December 02, 2011, 07:34:18 AM
Seriously man, how do you use gloves on food you should be eating?  O0
Hey, I have them in white too.  :)  And, no, I don't have them on when I eat. ::)

Quote from: iratherfly on December 02, 2011, 07:34:18 AMI think the yellow is geo. Cool them down rapidly and keep them cool until you eat them.  This rind play is the only thing to overcome with these and once you eliminate it this will be an incredible cheese. Unfortunately with the rind play you often get these geo infestations and you get an under-ripened interior which goes gooey and bitter outward.  This is such easy cheese to actually make but it's all about getting the affinage right with it. 1-2 more batches and it will be really great.
Yeah, with my current situation, that's been tough. If you put Geo in the mix, shouldn't you expect to see Geo on the rind?

Quote from: iratherfly on December 02, 2011, 07:34:18 AMBy the way, if you like St. Marcellin, the recipe is actually not too far off this one.
Never tried St. Marcellin...yet.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on December 02, 2011, 10:47:32 PM
Fantastic little cheese. Semi lactic, bloomy, flat little disc so delicate it has to be aged in a little clay dish. Primarily bloomed with geo.

Here is the last one I made, sometime this past summer
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on December 03, 2011, 07:07:29 AM
Quote from: iratherfly on December 02, 2011, 10:47:32 PM
Fantastic little cheese. Semi lactic, bloomy, flat little disc so delicate it has to be aged in a little clay dish. Primarily bloomed with geo.

Here is the last one I made, sometime this past summer
Intriguing treatment. I might consider that one after I do my re-engineered Tilsit...and give a Blue Castello a go.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: george on December 03, 2011, 11:18:23 AM
Quote from: Boofer on December 01, 2011, 08:01:41 AM
Thanks, MaryJ, for giving me the slap in the back of my head.  :)
Just as long as you promise to do the same for me some day.    ;D
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on December 04, 2011, 04:07:09 PM
I promise!  :)

Yesterday I wrapped two of the cheeses in cheese paper and put them in the big fridge. I left the other two in the minicave. I'm looking at a target for eating around Christmas. A week before will be four weeks. I'll judge what the two different aging processes do in that time.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on December 04, 2011, 07:55:10 PM
Chaource??? No Boofer! Consume them now. They will be ammonia by Christmas. If you make Chaource today it will be ready for Christmas.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on December 05, 2011, 01:06:13 AM
Quote from: iratherfly on December 04, 2011, 07:55:10 PM
Chaource??? No Boofer! Consume them now. They will be ammonia by Christmas. If you make Chaource today it will be ready for Christmas.
Really, not too soon? I didn't want to rush it.

Okay, sounds like a plan. Thanks.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on December 05, 2011, 01:57:49 AM
Taste one. It's suppose to be a 14-28 day cheese. I am afraid you got some skin slippage in there so if you don't start eating it now you will have an ammoniated cheese.  Unlike Camembert and other rennet-coagulated cheese, this will be tasty even when it's too young. It will become more rich, smooth and interesting during aging thereafter.  It also is much better consumed at room temperature (unless you have skin slip, then consume it cold and you won't feel the bitterness of the geo)
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on December 08, 2011, 08:27:36 AM
Well, today was Opening Day for my first semi-lactic.

I had selected one of the cheeses from the minicave rather than one of the ones I wrapped in cheese paper and put in the big fridge. I'd still like to see what being wrapped in the paper does and also how they fare at a colder, slower affinage.

I removed this one from the fridge, placed it on a plate and covered it loosely with plastic wrap. There it sat for three hours optimistically coming to room temperature. When I cut into it, it was still slightly chilled. The rind was cool & clammy. There was a little slip-skin and slight ooze between the rind and the core. Not knowing what to expect, the paste was slightly drier than I anticipated, but still very spreadable on crusty bread. I probably could have salted a little more initially. All I did was lightly salt the top and then the bottom. Seems like I've seen some recommendations to lightly salt the sides as well, figuring that a lot of the salt will run off with the whey that drips. The rind is soft and moist. I ate it along with the paste. Not chewy or gummy.

Flavor was mild and very slightly acidic. Again, I've never had Chaource (or any lactic or semi-lactic for that matter) so I have no idea what the flavor or texture should be or if I'm even close to simulating the style.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: ellenspn on December 08, 2011, 02:01:59 PM
Looks good! This weekend I'm going to a workshop where I'll make my first camembert so I'm putting my toe in the water for this!
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on December 09, 2011, 09:36:35 AM
Sorry Boofer... this was a distracting make for you with all the stuff with your dad happening (is he better? I hope so!)

This looks like it was prematurely rinded and the inside didn't age.

You should do this again with low temperature and very long ripening time. When you age it it should take 4-5 days for the rind to be created. If you see the geo on day 2 or 3 you are going too fast. Halt it y rubbing salt into it or putting it int he fridge for a couple of days and let the other stuff catch up. (Use a slower PC like VS not Neige which is very aggressive). When aging it, rub it daily for the first week or so to tighten that skin and spread it nice and even. This will prevent the skin slip.  The lack of contact between the skin and the paste is the cause for the immature and dry interior.

Last but not least.... salt. Not enough salt will make the geo run wild (grows too fast and ...voila! slip skin!). You can salt only the top of the cheese, wait 6 hours, turn the cheese and salt the bottom (which is now the new top).  Another ridiculously easy way to salt lactic cheeses is to do the following:
Pre drain the curd in a cheesecloth bag for 2-6 hours (the more, the drier).  Unload the curd from the bag to a bowl and weigh it. Add 1.5%-2% salt by weight. Mix/fold gently with a spatula. Taste it to see if it's good! (This is one of those few cheese types where you can actually salt and taste it right away. It's a delicious spread actually and without rind flora you can use it as an easy spreadable cheese, somewhere between cream cheese and fromage blanc).  Anyway, then fill your moulds with the pre-salted curd and continue to drain them regularly. Easy and accurate.  Note: when tasting it, the flavor should be slightly saltier than what you would want for a spreadable cheese. Lots of salt will continue to drain with whey in the coming days.

You will have better control if you make the cheese without ripening bacteria and only spray it on it once it's moulded. This has the potential to be a regular staple at your house and make a delicious supple triple creme like cheese with gorgeous rind. Don't give up. Try it again.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Tomer1 on December 09, 2011, 12:15:44 PM
Today is showcase day, opening the blue lactic and two (or perhaps just one if it hasnt ripened enough) PC riped lactic.

I have the feeling the blue is gone be tangy PR cream cheese texture which might be tasty and might be horrible. 
I'l take some pictures.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on December 09, 2011, 06:42:06 PM
Quote from: iratherfly on December 09, 2011, 09:36:35 AM
Sorry Boofer... this was a distracting make for you with all the stuff with your dad happening (is he better? I hope so!)
Yes, it has been a distracting week for me. Thank you for your kind words for my father. He is on the mend but it was a tough week for him too. His bride of 67 years (my mother) passed on Tuesday. Her 87th birthday would have been December 11th. We're doing okay, but this will be a holiday season I will long remember. I've been camping in Dad's house tending to his burns and other needs and long to return to my wife and little Yorkie. Three weeks being separated from them is wearing.

Thank you for providing clarity to my errors in this make. After trying to combine pieces of three recipes, I am much more inclined to lean more heavily towards your guidance. Not so much with the Margaret Morris or 200 Easy Cheeses recipes. Lower temp initially plus a lot less rennet.

Good advice and another solid entry for my process folder. Thanks. I'm actually anxious now to try it and get it right!

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: ellenspn on December 09, 2011, 06:48:14 PM
Oh Boofer I'm sorry for your loss  :'(  Hope your father continues to heal both physically and emotionally (And you too!)
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on December 09, 2011, 06:53:28 PM
Oh my. I am so sorry for your loss and as Ellenspn said, I too hope that your Dad health physically and emotionally. It must be especially difficult when your family is not there with you as much as you want them at these times.

Let me know when you are doing the next batch. Let's make this work.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: JeffHamm on December 09, 2011, 11:10:28 PM
Boofer, so sorry to read of your Mum's passing.  My thoughts are with your Dad and you and all your family.  Take care.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Tomer1 on December 10, 2011, 12:22:48 AM
My condolences...
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: anutcanfly on December 10, 2011, 02:27:51 AM
I am so sorry to hear of your loss.  I wish I could ease your pain.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Cloversmilker on December 10, 2011, 05:49:21 AM
Sorry to hear of the loss of your mother.  I hope your dad is doing okay physically and emotionally. 
Mina
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on December 10, 2011, 07:18:58 AM
Thank you all for your warm thoughts. Dad is doing well...almost healed in all ways, believe it or not.

Yet another reason to love this forum...compassionate people.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: nmordo on January 21, 2012, 05:39:27 PM
Hi All --

I was inspired to try this make, having struggled a bit with camemberts.  The issue with my cams has been that they end up WAY too dense, with little moisture inside. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the RH inside the aging cave, which I'm working on addressing with my latest batch.

Anyway, regarding iratherfly's Chaource recipe that I'm following, I added the GC pre-rennet, as specified, but no PC since it was an "either/or" choice in the recipe.  Now I'm wondering how the mold will form without the PC present.  Should I just go ahead and spray it with a PC solution once the surfaces are dry and the cheeses de-molded?  Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on February 08, 2012, 02:10:27 AM
Sorry nmordo I haven't been on the site in a couple of weeks and didn't see this message ...oh no!!! Too late now. nmordo, you may have made yourself an accidental large Saint Maercellin by now.  The recipe was kind of an aggregation from a conversation that Boofer and I had. Where is says "Geo or PLA and PC" should really read "Geo or PLA, and PC". That one little comma makes the difference... the choice is between Geo or PLA (because PLA is a mixture that already contains geo so no need to double up on yuor geo if you are using PLA, but not everyone have access to PLA and it is quite expensive). PC is a must have in Chaource.

What were your results like?
Let's try to fix your Chaource and Camemberts.  Have you been working with aging containers? They will solve your dry Camembert problem!  What temperature are you aging your Camemberts in?
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: nmordo on February 18, 2012, 07:22:48 PM
The Chaource came out amazingly.  For a first try at least.  I ended up spraying PC on the surface once it looked dry enough, and it promptly started showing up on the surface about a week later.  The end result had some slipskin (pictured below), but was absolutely delicious at three weeks, and at four weeks.  It was very wet though, so I'm focusing on draining/moisture control with my next batch.  But basically, I'm loving this cheese -- very low maintenance to make, and people have been loving it.  A co-worker donated a half gallon of fresh, raw milk, and I'm using it to make Chaource.  My first raw milk cheese.  :D

The camembert issue seems to have been addressed (finally!) by using a proper aging container within my cheese cave (a wine fridge).  It seems to have been a humidity issue.  Below is a picture of the camembert after about 4 weeks. It had a pretty strong ammonia smell, but it was still young.  I opened another one a week later and it was pretty runny all the way through.  Unfortunately no pics of that one.

In other I have some 3 week old reblochons I'm wondering if I should open.  It's my first attempt at that cheese as well.  I already have another thread open on those, so will post the pics there.

Thanks for the response, and the recipe.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on February 21, 2012, 07:53:06 AM
Glad you are making progress!
Both cheeses look quite ammoniated. The PC is receding and even if this isn't a total slip skin, you still have lots of premature softness and ammonia just under the rind before the center of the cheese has reached maturity.  Your rind looks like it is suffocating.  This is usually the result of too much moisture and/or too high temperature.  I see wrapping paper in your photos, so I suspect that's where this is all from. Do not wrap these cheeses. -Especially if you are aging them in a box. Let them age cold, slowly and in a partially-open box that keeps just the right moisture in it (adjust the lid over time to close it further and further as additional moisture evaporates from the cheese and box so it remains at 90%-95%. If your moisture falls too low, add wet paper towel to the bottom for a day or two). Colder temperature will let the PC grow stronger, so your geo doesn't take over.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: anutcanfly on February 21, 2012, 04:59:54 PM
That wrapping paper does cause problems.  Someone mentioned that paper as being a problem, so I didn't use it on my last bloomy rind and it did much better! 
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on February 21, 2012, 06:45:41 PM
Huh, that was probably me... I have a long history of bad-mouthing paper around here.  I think that a few hobby cheesemaking manuals/kits out there are telling people to wrap their cheese as soon as they see bloom. People take this misguided instruction very seriously, wrap prematurely and kill their otherwise successful cheese. Some of these instructions also fail to mention taking the cheese out of the aging container once it is wrapped.

So a few words about paper for anyone having issues with it (or issues with cheese that as wrapped in it...)
Don't get me wrong, I have 6 types of wrapping paper in a box here. I think it's fantastic for the preservation and maturation of stable cheese past the affinage stage, or for packing a slice at a cheese shop; but paper is no cheese cave and should not be used as an affinage accessory.  It works particularly badly if used in combination with an aging container. It's either one or the other, not both.

Paper produce breathable micro-climate so it keeps the cheese at 90% RH when it is refrigerated at normal 50%-75% RH environment of . If one puts the wrapped cheese it in a container that is already 85%-90% RH, then the paper will lock the cheese in a 100% RH environment. Anything above 100% turns into water beads. Surface saturated => PC growth inhibited => Geo growth goes uncontrolled through the roof => accelerated proteolysis due to Geo growth causes bitterness and ammonia to appear just under the rind => the under-rind liquifies, causing possible slip skin condition => dry mold such as PC on the rind recedes => surface flora dies as rind suffocates => cheese aging ceases. The result? Cheese with slip skin, bitter flavor an liquified/soft under-rind area, under-aged center is sour, flaky, and brittle. It's stinky, but not a good stinky.

Paper does work better when it is applied onto stable cheese and kept in a breathing box (such as wooden Camembert box) or a purpose-made cheese box with vents (such as the ones often used for Crottin, Brillat Savarin, Cabécou and others).

Even then, which is the right paper to use? There is no "one-paper-fits-all" here. Blue, bloomy, washed, harder cheese, moist or dry, or cheese that was already sliced all require different wrapping materials. The choices are endless: cellophane, foil, crystal paper, kraft paper, polypropylene, hydrophobic paper, wax and parchment in a variety of layered arrangements, thickness and perforation patterns are made for very specific results with specific cheeses. It takes a bit of experimentation to find the best thing that works for YOUR cheese, the way YOU make it, in YOUR aging environment (by "you" I mean anyone of course).

I personally achieve the best results with perforated cellophane for bloomies, foil for blues. For everything else I use this French made wrap called Expeco; a two-layer paper; one layer is extruded perforated polypropylene and the other is kraft paper that has hydrophobic coating on the side that doesn't touch the cheese. This paper is reversible too, each side is better for different types of cheese.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on February 22, 2012, 01:07:46 AM
Yoav, thank you for that dissertation. Well said and another cheese comes your way.

John, any way this detail finds its way into the wiki?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: JeffHamm on February 22, 2012, 05:06:58 AM
Yes, great information on the use of wrapping paper with bloomy cheeses.  A cheese to you from me as well.  Thanks.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: Boofer on February 22, 2012, 07:01:18 AM
Thanks, Jeff.  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on March 09, 2012, 10:12:50 PM
So much love here!

By the way, I wrote another post with photos on another Chaource thread here today (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9073.msg66277.html#msg66277). I pointed out that Chaource and several other semi-lactic bloomies of the Champagne region are so incredibly sensitive that they have devised an industry standard to how they are packed, shipped and stored.  Perhaps this is what we should try to adopt here too. They put them inside a paper cup (like a coffee filter or the paper cup used for cupcakes and muffins). that goes inside a wood box (like a Camembert box, just smaller chaource size). That box is then shrink-wrapped with perforated film. I think we can replicate this in home environment easily (just instead of shrink wrap we can attach cellphane to the top of the box with a simple rubber band and then puncture it with needle. I think this will work well. Can't wait to try.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: FRANCOIS on March 10, 2012, 12:12:48 PM
Honestly it's just a marketing gimic.  You'd be amazed at the plethora of packaging materials and engineering involved with designing them.  There's really no reason you can't wrap these cheeses, except visual smooshing of the mould of course.

When I do new packaging for moulded cheeses I have a 10 page document I fill out and send to designers in France.  It includes information not only about the cheese (fat, protein, water, ash, pH, rind cultures) but also shelf life, shipping temperatures, time in chillers, distribution temps and humidities.....even carboard box details and palletisation.   I tell them if I want paper, foil, a box or whatever plus price points and they come back with a selection of solutions for me.  It's pretty advanced.
Title: Re: Chaource . . . Boofer sinks into semi-lactic
Post by: iratherfly on March 13, 2012, 06:28:43 PM
Be that as it may... these semi-lactics just don't take it as well as Camembert and the box+paper+ perforated shring wrap or the perforated cello wrapping seem to always work without suffocating the rind. Obviously there are external factors as you said. I do washed rind in parchment or crystal paper that has a second layer of cello and I do blues with foil. Camembert types - I only wrap when they are ready for storage or marketing and I do that with two layer paper or perforated cello, but for these all of my one-to-one testing (taking a few from the same batch with different wrappers and side by side aging them, refregirating them, shipping them in chilled containers together across country) the ones with the perforated cello always were the clear winners. Will they survive under regular wrap? Sure. They aren't as good or long lasting though. I also personally prefer that as this cheese ages it would lean towards dryness instead of ammonia.  I have not tried the wood box+paper+perforated shrink wrap myself but I have purchased a lot of cheese like that and from some reason it's only the bloomy semi lactics that they package this way: Chaource, Charolais, Epoisse, Langres, Lactic Robiolas etc. Why do they only do this with semi lactics? Hmmm... Interesting