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Hi everyone,

I am trying to make Havarti following ther recipe in the book "Artisan Cheese Making At Home". I will be glad to give you the blow by blow of what I did, but for now, let me say that I followed everything in the recipe precisely and was really liking the way things were proceeding. The milk set up right, there was a clean break when it was supposed to happen, and washing the curds had them shrinking the way they should. After storing the cheese overnight in the fridge, the recipe states that it can be eaten right then, or allowed to age. I decided to taste a small sliver and that is where my problem/question lies:

The cheese looked right and had the right consistency, but upon tasting, it tastes sour.

I am using a non-homogenized millk from a local farmer - but it is pasteurized. The culture used was MM100 from The Dairy Connection which I ordered about a week ago. Calcium Chloride from the same source and time, and a vegetable based Rennet bought two days ago from a local store with an expiration date on it in 2013.

Any ideas what went wrong?

Also, is it salveagble? I currently have the cheese in a brine the fridge (in accordance with the recipe instructions). Thanks for any help,

AND...

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!

I'm new at this too, but I've been experimenting with Havarti lately - there are a lot of different recipes out there, which makes it confusing. I've decided to age mine a bit - I'm waxing after the cheese has air-dried after brining, then into my cave at 10oC for a couple of weeks. We've  eaten the first and my husband said it was my best cheese yet - it was about 7 weeks old when we cracked it.  The second, using the Smith recipe, was a failure - I didn't wax but put it in the cave when it was still a bit damp and it went very soft and developed some mold after about two weeks (didn't help that I had to go away for a week and so it didn't get the usual tender loving care!) so I moved it into the fridge.   It tasted a bit tangy, but was OK in a lasagne sauce, so maybe you could use it up that way. My first havarti was made from the recipe in Willman 'Home Cheesemaking'  and it's unusual as you put it in a cold water bath between the draining and the brine bath. That recipe doesn't press, I think it's better to give it a light press, which is what I've done for the 3rd attempt, using Willman again.  I made one this week from Morris 'Cheesemakers Manual' which specifies a 4 hour press and no cold water bath, so it will be interesting to compare them

I think that you haven't done anything wrong, it just needs to age a bit. It's probably not too late to take it out of the brine, air dry it and then age it a bit in your cave.
Margaret

Sounds like it was overly acidified, the Ph after pressing was too low.
You didnt mention anything about salting, did you?

Yes, I did salt it.

When I wrote the original post, I had it in brine. i took it out of the brine, patted the cheese dry and left it sitting at room temp. This morning, a rind started forming. It looks all slippery but is damp to the touch. I flipped it over and put it in a wine refrigerator that I am using as a quasi-cheese-cave along with a bowl of water to help the humidity levels. I'll keep flipping it daily and we'll see what happens.

How long should I wait before tasting it again?

Thanks for the suggestions.

Another couple of questions, since Tomer1 mentioned over-acidic:

1.   What should the pH range of the cheese be at various stages? (I have a pH meter and can check it, but what is correct?)
2.   If it is too low, what do I add to make it less acidic? (I know in the reverse case I can add Citric Acid).

Thanks again,

You cant really reverse it,whats done is done. Aging will take some of the tanginess away.

Here you go,recipe with Ph targets.   
http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/208-Havarti.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/208-Havarti.html)

There seems to be a step where the cheese is left over night in water before brining. Perhaps its meant to wash some of the acid or calcium?

That's right, some recipes, but not all, have a step between pressing and brining of bathing in cold water for varying times. I have two in my cave now, one made with this step and one without, so, in time, I'll be able to report if there's any difference.

Thanks Tomer and Margaretsmall,

I have not thrown the cheese out, instead it is in a wine fridge, aging. As of this morning, a hard rind is forming. I flip it daily.

Others have mentioned that the tanginess will evaporate with time. My question now, is how long to wait? I know that I can wait a long time, but since this is my first attempt, I would want to try it young to learn how it develops (and get started on the next batch with making adjustments to see improvements.). So, what would you recommend? I am thinkg of letting it age for two more weeks and then try it. What do you think I should be tasting at that point?

Hi McGuff,
Havarti is described as having  a mild paste and a flexible texture, which is right, on the basis of my very brief experience! This is what my first effort looks like - I made it on 21st Sept and cut the first one (6l made 2xcamembert size cheeses) on 10th Nov. and the second about 3 days ago. Both delicious. (now to try to insert a photo - wish me luck).
Margaret

I see that you succeeded in your picture upload. Congrats!

One of these days, I'll get up the nerve to take pics of my cheeses and upload them too - right now I am too nervous about my efforts as a rookie....

I see you waxed your cheese. I am not, and I do not believe I have seen Havartis waxed whenever I bought it. Why did you decide to do so? Also, your cheese looks incredibly creamy. What kind of milk did you use? I have seen Havartis advertised as "triple cream"... was that one of the things you did?

Looks good though!

Funny you should mention waxing, as I'm in the middle of trying to wax no. 4 and am in a terrible mess. As soon as I use up this wax I'm going to buy a vacuum sealer gadget.  The little ones were easy to handle, but this one is in a 15cm mold and awfully hard to handle. Several of the havarti recipes suggest waxing after the cheese has dried off.I think if you want to keep the cheese for a bit, rather than eat it straight away, it's a good idea, easier than trying to keep the blue mold off! Maybe one of our more expert members might like to comment on the pros and cons of waxing.

I used bog-standard supermarket PH milk, no cream, but I did add CaCl. I still have very fragile curds, which is a bit of a hassle. This week I made an edam (very similar make to havarti) using 4l low fat PH milk and 2 l full cream organic, non-homogenized milk and got a great curd so maybe I'll have to wear the additional cost of the good milk.
Best wishes
Margaret

New problem seems to be developing, my cheese disk is developing cracks in it. I have been flipping the cheese daily and noticed (with pleasure) that the rind has been forming nicely and it is getting quite hard by feel. Today, when i went to flip it, there were crack radiating from the outside in. Not all the way, but definitely deep beyond the rind and two or three on each side of the cheese.

I expect that this is related to low humidity levels in my wine fridge which is keeping the cheese at 54 degrees F. In anticipation of this problem, I lightly brushed a thin layer of oil on the cheese before starting the aging process and included a bowl of water in the fridge. The bowl still has about two thirds of the water in it. The cheese itself feels dry.

Should I have been oiling more?
How do I 'fix' this? Do I need to fix it?
Any other ideas besides low humidity?

Should i eat it now and try again?

I know I am full of questions, but I am sure that others here have dealt with these problems before and can help. So, thanks for your suggestions!

Hi McGuff,
I've not had a cracking problem yet, so I can't suggest anything from experience, but there's a wicki on cracks with a wonderful picture of a gouda which cracked horribly. If I knew how to put a link in here I would, but I don't, so  search the forum under 'cracking rind' and you'll find it. There's lots of threads which touch on the problem, which seems to be quite common. Sounds like low humidity might be the problem. Do post a photo, I'd love to compare with my efforts.
Margaret

Thanks Margaret, I'll look for it.

I am quite sure the problem is related to low humidity in the wine fridge I am using for a cave. I am in the U.S. and with it being winter here, the forced air heating is on which causes the air in the house to be very dry. I was attempting to keep the humidity up in the fridge by leaving a bowl of water in the fridge, but the water level did not go down too much in the first three days. Yesterday, I read on this forum that I should have inserted a small cloth to help the moisture wick up and dissipate better, so I did so this morning. By the time I got back from work tonight, all the water had evaporated, so it is definitely dry in there.

I will continue to replace water, flip the cheese, and hope. I will probably try it in a week or two to gauge whether the sourness disappeared. I am planning on making a larger sample in 10 days (business trips between now and then do not allow my time to make the new batch sooner).

Will report back in time.

MacGruff - for a second there I thought like Tomer that your cheese was too acidified. I went back to your original message to see if you have any texture or melting comments and see how you made it. Typically an acidic cheese will be hard, crumbly, chalky and won't melt. I do not see that you mentioned any of that but one thing did pop up that left me like "...that recipe said what????"

Let me get this right in case I misunderstood: Did your recipe say you can make Havarti and eat it the next day???  Are you sure???  This makes no sense at all whatsoever, not by a long shot.  Which brings me to the subject of sour taste - this is very typical of un-aged cheese and I think that's all there's to it here.

This type of cheese needs a few days for the acidity to start climbing back up. It takes a while for it to turn yellow too. Further bacterial activity then begins to build rind flora, lactate buildup and lactose digestion, converting sugars and proteins to the gas that create the small eyes (holes) in Havarti. There is a long term enzymatic activity: proteolysis process (breakdown of proteins - this is what matures the cheese and gives it the texture) and Lipolysis (the breakdown of fatty acids which builds up the sharpness of its flavor). Yeasts build aromatic propertiesand gas. Other bacteria from your starter now enhances the flavors; Diacetyls for example make up buttery flavors, or Helveticus create nutty flavors Lipase can create bitterness and sharpness ...you get the idea. There is also succession effect, microorganisms convert one substance to another and the new substance kicks off a totally new bacteria with its own set of flavors, aroma and texture contribution.  Then, there is the aspect of safety: These microorganisms outgrow pathogens and render a safer cheese that shouldn't spoil.  In short, it's a microscopic garden and zoo in one; a little happening and lively ecosystem. Managing this craziness to your liking is the real art of cheesemaking. It's a patient process that takes weeks if not months. So, unless you are making yogurt, spreadable cheese or a flavorless lazy cheese (Paneer or Queso Fresco), arm yourself with an extra dose of patience, hope and sarcasm. It takes time and doesn't always work.

Your Havarti is probably a success. Just age it for a couple of months and resist temptation to try it until then. (I suppose now that you've tasted it you need to close it somehow. Can you vacuum it? Is it still fairly moist?)

As for your other problem with the cracking: This happens when a cheese loses too much moisture too quickly. Add moisture to the environment. Use an aging container for example to lock moist air inside.  What's your cave humidity like?  (again, vacuuming will resolve this issue). This could also happen if your cheese is bloating - is that happening?  That happens usually due to contamination or fermented animal feed.

iratherlfy - Thanks for the explanation and I guess it is time to provide you (and others) with the whole detailed story, eh? Anyway, I will first post the recipe paragraph by paragraph, and then my notes that relate to that paragraph. I will try to give them different fonts to make it easier to understand which is which. I also took a couple of photos with my cell phone which I will try to upload here and see what happens:

Recipe:
1.   In a nonreactive stock pot, heat the milk over low heat to 70 degress F, this should take about 12 minutes. Turn off the heat

23 November, 2011; 0920; Kitchen temp at 71 degrees. Put one gallon of Manchester Farms milk in pot. The milk has an expiration date of 3 December 2011. Milk temp is at 42 degrees and I set the fire to low.
0934 Milk has reached 55 degrees F
0945 Milk has reached 70 degrees F

2. Sprinkle the starter over the milk and let it rehydrate for 5 minutes. Mix well using a whisk in an up-and-down motion for 1 minute. Cover and maintain 70 degrees, letting the milk ripen for 45 minutes.

Sprinkled one quarter teaspoon of MM100 on top of the milk with the fire off
0952 mixed milk with an up and down motion for one minute, then covered the pot and left it for 45 minutes.

Add the Calcium Chloride and gently whisk for 1 minute. Slowly raise the temperature to 86 degrees F over 7 to 8 minutes, then add the Rennet and gently whisk in for 1 minute. Cover and let sit, maintaining 87 degrees F for 30 to 45 minutes, or until the curds give a clean break.

1006 Diluted one quarter teaspoon Calcium Chloride in one eigthth cup of distilled water. Milk is at 74 degrees.
1039 Add the Calcium Chloride to the milk and stirred for one minute. Turned of fire at simmer. Mixed one quarter teaspoon of liquid vegetable Rennet (Malaka brand) into 1/8 cup of water
1052 Milk reached 86 degrees. Added Rennet and stirred for one minute. Then covered and let sit with fire off for 45 minutes.
1139 Clean break achieved and surface temp is at 86 degrees.

3. Still maintaining 86 degrees, cut the curds into 1/2 inch pieces and let sit for 5 minutes.

I cut the curds into roughly 1/2 cubes and let it sit for 5 minutes.

Gently stir the curds for 10 minutes, then let sit for 5 minutes.

Stirred the cut curds for 10 minutes (temp remained at 86 degrees) and noticed they were shrinking. I also cut any of the larger pieces that I found and kept stirring. Then, I let the curds rest for five minutes. During this time, the curds started sinking below the level of the whey.

Ladle out about one-third of the whey and add 3 cups of 130 degree water. When the temperature of the curds and whey reaches 92 to 94 degrees, add another 3 cups of 130 degree water.

1202 Ladled out 3 cupos of whey and replaced with water which started out at 172 degrees but cooled to 130 before mixing in to whey. After this, the whey/curd mix is at 94 degrees. Prepared another 3 cups of hot water

Gently stir for 5 minutes, then add another 2 cups of 130 degree water. Add the salt and stir to dissolve. Check the temperature and add 130 degree water as needed to bring the curds and whey to about 97 degrees.

Stirred the curds for 5 minutes
1212 Added 2 teaspoons of cheese salt and stirred to dissolve. Added 3 more cupos of hote water to bring the mix up to a temp of 97 degrees.

Continue stirring until the curds feel stringy in your hand when squeezed, about 20 minutes.

1215 Started stirring for 20 minutes. At the end of this, the individual curds have shrunk quite a bit and they feel kind of spongy.

Ladle off enough whey to expose the curds. Gently stir in the dill

1235 Ladled off 5 cups of whey. Decided on this first attempt not to add dill

4. Line an 8-inch Tomme mold (with follower) with damp butter muslin and place it on a draining rack. Gently ladle the curds into the mold and press them in with your hands. Pull the cloth tight and smooth, removing any wrinkles. Fold the cloth tails over the curds, set the follower on top, and press at 8 pounds for 30 minutes.

Ladled the curds into a tomme mold lined with butter musling (yes, damp). Pressed the curd and pulled the muslin tight. Folded the remaining muslin over the top (too much muslin - should cut it before next use) and put the follower on top. Then placed a gallon jug filled with water on top.

5. Remove the cheese from the mold, peel away the cloth, flip the cheese and redress with the same cloth. Press again at 8 pounds, redressing every 30 minutes for up to 3 hours, or until the whey stops draining.

1310 Flipped the cheese and redressed
1340 Flipped
1410 No more whey is draining so move on to next step

6. Leave the cheese in the mold without pressure for about three more hours before putting in the fridge for 12 hours or overnight. Remove the cheese from the mold. It is now ready to eat, or it can be aged fro more intense flavor

1410 flipped the cheese over and stored in the fridge for overnight

7. Make 2 quarts of saturated brine in a noncorrosive container with a lid and chill it to 50 to 55 degrees. Submerge the cheese in the brine and soak at 50 to 55 degrees for 8 hours or overnight

24 November Morning - This is when i tasted the cheese and found it sour.
Prepared brine and moved cheese from mold to to brine and stored it in the fridge for 12 hours.
evening. Took cheese out of brine, patted it dry and placed on draining dish at room temp for overnight

8. Remove the cheese from the brine and pat dry. Air-dry at room temperature on a rack for 12 hours, then age at 55 degrees and 85 percent humidity on a cheese mat set in a ripening box, flipping daily. Age for 1 month, or longer if desired, removing any unwanted mold with cheesecloth dampened in a vinegar-salt solution

25 November - flipped the cheese which is developing a rind. Brushed all over it with a small amount of Canola oil and stored in a wine fridge (I am concerned about the wine fridge not being humid enough, but you can read about that above)

Now for the two pics which I just took. Each picture if of one side of the cheese since I flipped it between the two cheeses. The cell phone and the kitchen lights show things in a yellowish light on my screen. The rind is kind of light yellow, but it's much more pronounced in the photos than reality.

i think you can see the cracks in both side. They are deep fissures that go most of the way through the think disk of cheese.

Since I can see the pics now, I can tell you that it is way too yellow. Much more than reality. The stuff under the cheese is bamboo if it helps.

Also, I forgot to credit the recipe to its source which is the book "Artisan Chesse Making At Home" by Mary Karlin and puiblished by Ten Speed Press.

How many gallons was this? What's the current weight?

First of, this recipe is a bit strange and inaccurate. You followed it well and you are probably capable of making a great Havarti. (Aging what you got may actually end up tasting Havarti-ish in a few weeks), but I would look for an alternative recipe. The recipe on 200 Easy Homemade Cheese Recipes is far easier, more accurate and authentic. Milk at 90°F from the get-go, 30 min pre-rennet, 45 min post rennet, cut 1/2", stir 10 min, let rest and shrink 5 more min. Remove 5 qt of whey, replace with 5qt of 170°F water gradually, get to 100°F, add salt, hold for 30 min, mould and press light for 20 min, redress and press medium for 6-8 hours. Remove and dry in the cave for 1 week, turning daily. After 1 week rub with oil and continue aging turning occasionally. After the 4th week move to fridge and continue aging as needed.  Simple, easy, clean, doable. This will work.

Comment: I noticed you haven't diluted the Calcium Chloride and you only diluted the rennet with 1/8 cup water.  You should dilute both. The idea is to give it great even distribution throughout the milk before it becomes active so it gives you more time to mix it evenly, resulting in better yield. Don't worry about the water diluting your milk. This extra water contains no milk solids of course, so they would simply drain later as part of the whey.

As for the cracking, it looked like your cheese was smashed a bit. If you pressed it in a proper Tomme mould than it should have a very clean straight line that is fairly defined.  The shape isn't perfectly round and I see pressing marks on top of the cheese which leads me to believe you didn't use a good mould and follower, which would have given you the proper formed cheese. Uneven press leaves the curd loose on one end while over tightening it in another area and smashing it completely in yet another region. When you begin to age the cheese minerals move about it and it dries out further, there is shrinkage....  it keeps changing in the first few days and uneven pressing may create these type of cracks.
Another factor could be not having your cheesecloth pulled tightly and nice in the mould.  This recipe calls for 8 Lbs. of pressure on this cheese right from the start and I find it to be a bit heavy. That too could have smashed your curds. Try it with 3-5 Lbs for the first 30 min or so, then redress, turn and raise to 8Lbs. If it's not the uneven press or the fast drying, it could be the result of excessive acidity though typically these cracks take a while to appear.

Hi Ratherfly,
Thanks (and a cheese to you) for your most informative input to this discussion - as you can see from my posts I'm a beginning Havarti maker as well. I wonder if you could comment on the question of waxing vs vacuum packing vs developing a natural rind? Some havarti recipes suggest waxing as an option and I've done that, and found it to be a very messy procedure, which I'd rather not do. Is vacuuming a direct alternative to waxing? (ie if a recipe says to wax, can I vacuum pack at that time instead with the same outcome?) My only attempt so far at a natural rind havarti had a rather hilarious result as you can see below. I scraped the rind off and used the cheese in a lasagne.
Best wishes
Margaret

Thanks for that cheese!

Yes, the cheese you made is too small to take the effects of Havarti and it looks like you have a mold infestation. I see at least Geotrichum Candidum and Poil de Chat and there may be more stuff there. Too small, too much moisture, not enough pressing or cooking of the curd, possibly a high temperature aging.

Havarti, like most Nordic and Scandinavian cheeses is rather rindless. They do not make use of the mold to flavor the cheese or to age it (typical for their cold weather. Historically it didn't allow moulds to develop so that's the cheese that came out of there). As such, gouda, Havarti and other such cheeses are often aged in wax or vacuum.  What it does is preventing the air flow and acting as sort of a faux temporary rind. It protects moisture from coming out and protect the cheese from contamination, just like a real rind. Once you peel it off, you get the cheese that's "under the rind" only.

Traditionally wax has been used. It's indeed messy and rather dangerous (fire and burn hazard).  The vacuum is a modern interpretation of the same exact idea. What I love about it is that it can easily replace wax in any waxed cheese recipe. It is elastic and durable so unlike wax -it doesn't crack or break. It protects well from pathogens, it is transparent and you can see the state of the cheese. It reacts to contamination by blowing slightly (wax just cracks) and you can see through it whether or not the cheese has foreign molds. It is easy to take off cleanly when you are going to break open the cheese - no mess on the table or on the cheese. It can even be easily re-sealed and the cheese can be sent back to the cave to age some more without firing up the wax pot again.  I personally no longer use wax. Only vacuum.

Hi iratherfly - I think you deserve a cheese from me as well!

To answer your question, I used one gallon of non-homogenized, but pasteurized milk from a local farmer. The weight as of today is 15.125 Oz. By the way, the recipe called for two gallons of milk, but I only had one so I cut everything in half. That's why the 1/8 cup etc.

I will look for that book you recommended. Sounds like a different source of ideas - which are always welcome! Gotcha on the water. Will not worry about it any more. I do have a proper Tomme mold - bought from the Dairy connection - but I expect that I screwed up when dressing and pulling the butter muslin. I probably should cut it rather than use the whole length that I have. I did notice that after pulling it taught along the bottom of the mold, I had lots and lots of material to distribute across the top before putting the follower in. I expect I had too much there. the marks on one side have more to do with my first attempt at a drying rack - I am too embarassed to mention that part.    :-[

I also like your description of vacuuming and am wondering what do you use for that? I mean what kinds of gadgets/tools/equipment are you using for the vacuum sealing?

P.S. - I will try again next weekend with two gallons of milk and better humidity control.

Quote from: MacGruff on December 03, 2011, 12:50:33 AM
I also like your description of vacuuming and am wondering what do you use for that? I mean what kinds of gadgets/tools/equipment are you using for the vacuum sealing?

For vacuum sealing cheeses, most folks use some product such as a FoodSaver, but it could be a Seal-A-Meal or something similar that works. I used to use wax but discovered vacuum-sealing and haven't looked at wax since. Truly a convenient, efficient, time-saving invention.

-Boofer-

Thanks for this iratherfly, I'm off to buy a vacuum sealer tomorrow.

These funny little ones were the only batch I tried in these small molds, for the next two I used a 15cm mold - as my husband commented 'you've made a proper cheese at last!' They certainly looked like proper cheeses.  But your comment about the molds being too small for this style of cheese has been taken onboard.You're right about too high a maturing temp - what happened was I put them in my cave and all was going well until we had to go away unexpectedly for a week (they had been in there for about 10 days I think) and when we came back the temp. had gone haywire, and was up to 15oC. and could have been higher. Now under control.  Also, the recipe (200 easy cheeses) seemed to suggest putting them straight into the cave after brining, when my instinct said to dry them off at room temp. for a bit - but possibly the author expects cheesemakers to understand this point. So excess moisture would also have contributed.

Thanks, too MacGruff for starting this thread and sharing your experience - we learn more from the failures! I've gotten a great deal out of making the same cheese a number of times, using some of the different approaches that are around, and I plan to keep with this style of cheese for a while longer. And since I live in a relatively cool part of Australia they are clearly ideal for making here in winter.
Best wishes
Margaret
PS love iratherfly's sentence 'arm yourself with an extra dose of patience, hope and sarcasm' - reminds me of one I read in a newspaper article that gardening teaches acceptance - the very next week my husband's horse invaded my vegetable patch and ate everything that he didn't actually trample into the soil. Lost a summer's worth of beans, corn and tomatoes. Sigh... So the loss of one little batch of funny havarti is nothing.

You should look at the FoodSaver, you can always find a great coupon deals for them online. Get a combo that includes some of the baggin material. It will save you money and hassle.

It is funny about that cheese. Essentially you got the mold that you would expect in a wild rind Tomme.  I have friends whom I taught to take care of my cheese when I am gone. Hey I take care of their Dog when they are are of town; they can take care of my cat's hair mold. It's only fair!

That's a funnily tragic story with that horse eating your veggie patch. Yep, it's kind of that feeling with a cheese you cared for over 6 months going the wrong way on you.

By the way MacGruff I was thinking, if you only made 1 gallon batch and used the 7.5" Tomme mould from the Dairy Connection, than this is a mould for 4 Lbs/4 gallon Tommes. No wonder you got a very flat pancake for a cheese. I bet the follower didn't even go down that deep.  You need a small Reblochon type of mould for this size cheese

A cheese sitter - now there's a niche market waiting to be exploited. I'll put my hand up. Anyone for house swapping? You look after my cheese, I'll look after yours...... Whether anyone would want to come to Armidale though - today, supposedly summer, it was 4oC overnight...

I wonder where the Geotrichum Candidum came from - cat's hair  I know is endemic (although I'd rather it wasn't in my cave). But geo -  haven't used it yet. Interesting.

Huh... that's about the same temperature as here in NYC. Wouldn't mind an Australian vacation. Isn't summer coming up? hmmm...

Geo could come from your milk, environment and other neighboring cheeses or cheese that was in the cave in the past.

Cat's hair isn't really one type of fungi but a general nickname for the ambient stuff. Not all that bad. In fact, you really want it when you make Tommes. I have been working on some crazy wild mold lately. I will post them soon.

Come to think of it, I suspect that maybe it was actually neither of those. It might have been oidium

Yes, in theory it's summer. ;) I haven't ventured into Tommes yet, but obviously when I do the mold won't be a problem.Glad to hear it's not a nasty, even if it looks off. Look forward to seeing your wild Tommes. Oidium aka powdery mildew? Attacks tomatoes? Gr....  Acceptance, acceptance..

Yep, Oidium is not a good one. Attacks fruits and veggies indeed, generally bad for cheese too.

The things with Tommes is that in home setting it is actually difficult to bring out all this mold (which happily of course attacks cheese that doesn't need it). I have been going crazy trying to bring out wild molds. It's a lot of work.

Here are my little raw milk Tommes. (Will be ready in 3-4 more weeks):

Wow, Yoav, very rustic rind. I'd love to see the inside and hear how it turns out taste and texture-wise.

-Boofer-

Me too! I would love that. Can't wait. This is raw milk so I am patiently waiting 60 days but in hindsight I should have made one larger wheel. I am afraid it will lose too much moisture.  It smells terrific though.

Great looking cheese.
Oidium seems the likely culprit on my cheese - my tomatoes do have something attacking the leaves, and we've had very wet and cool weather lately, just the ticket for nasties to flourish. I'll make sure to disinfect my cave.
Margaret

Wish me luck folks. I just came back from the store with two gallons of milk. Tomorrow morning I will start making Havarti again....


Holding my fingers crossed....      ;)

Woo hoo! Take it slow. make this one really nice!

Status update:

I spent the day working through the same recipe as before, only this time using two gallons of milk and the right quantities of the cultures, etc. Thanks to the suggestions here, I used some water with the MM100 culture and mixed it well into the milk. Anyway, below is the picture of what it looks like right after it finished draining and I then transferred it to the fridge. It is now colling down and tomorrow will get the brine bath. By the way, weight after draining if 1.242 Kg - and remember I started with two gallons of milk...

(I still need to learn to fold the muslin better!!!! )  :-[

That's good yield. After losing all the moisture during aging you will end up with about 900g-1000g which is 2 Lbs. or more, that's exactly what you want from 2 gallons.

The MM100 is DVI (Direct Vat Inoculated) or DS (Direct Set) culture which means it is designed to be tossed freely in its granulate form right onto the milk.  Water may render it less effective.  For large quantities of cheese, cheesemakers usually mix it in sterile milk to make a mother culture.  For a 2 gallon batch you can just toss it onto the surface, wait 3-5 minutes for it to reconstitute and then mix thoroughly throughout the milk.  It will build colonies and will eventually take spread through the entire milk volume.

The rennet and calcium however do need this dilution even in small batches of cheese because they don't spread themselves through the milk without intervention.

Cheese looking good!

iratherfly - The package of MM100 I have says DVI on it, so I probably should NOT have mixed it with water first. Oh well.

Anyway, the brining stage is over and I took the cheese out of the brine and patted it dry. The cheese weight is 2 lb. 6 Oz. now (which is 1.1 Kg). Below are pictures taken today. (BTW - the weight of the drying rack I am using is 4 ounces so I subtracted that from the weight you see in the second picture)

The next stage is to let it dry overnight, and then it goes into the "cave".

That's a really goood yield. In the future I suggest you don't pat dry the cheese. It needs to dry slowly and naturally. The brine that is on the surface is taking part in the osmosis process and it keeps circulating into and out of your cheese paste to flavor it and sanitize it, and to create the protective rind. Drying naturally should be in high humidity (but not as high as the cave). a good trick is to put it on a drying rack and put a bowl on top of it. Air is flowing freely from underneath but the bowl doesn't let it dry too quickly.  If the humidity is low and it dries too fast it may crack, so just let it be.   This long drying session also wakes up the yeasts and geo which begin to de-acidify and neutralize your cheese. (yeasts and geo are naturally occurring even if you didn't put them in)

It's been one week now since I put the cheese in the "cave" to rest. I have been flipping it daily. As of today's flip, it weight 2 Lb. 3 Oz or 994 grams. It is feeling dry and nice and I will now stop flipping daily in favor of a weekly flip.

I think it looks good, but what do I now?

As to the pancake cheese that started this thread. It is also in the "cave" I will taste it this coming Thursday and let you all know what it's like.

Well done McGruff, great looking havarti. I think you wait now ;D unless you want to wax or vacuum pack it. If you decide to let a natural rind develop I'll be most interested to see how it develops. My third Havarti was cracked yesterday (can't remember when I made it, we're away from home and my notes and I forgot to write the date on this one) and it's going down very well.
Best wishes for the season
Margaret

MacGruff - what do you mean it's dry? Is it wrapped? Vacuumed? in an aging container? What's the humidity like in your cave?  This is a rather rindless cheese. I would suggest to vacuum age it. I hope it won't turn too dry and your cave is at least 90% humid because you don't want to dry it out. It's a moist cheese. On the other hand, if you would have 90% humidity and age it for a week you would have seen some rind flora by now. Best advice: vacuum it. Keep aging it at around 55°F/13°C and turn it over every few days from now on until done.

iratherfly - I hear you about the rindless and humidity. That's my current dilemma. I am using a college-dorm type of fridge where I fiddled with the controller so that it keeps the innards at 50 degrees F. For humidity, I am filling the bottle container in the bottom with water and have a small towel providing wicking. I have not hygrometer, so cannot measure the humidity level inside there - yet.  (I have a hygormeter on order - should arrive in a couple of days.)

As to my comment about "dry" cheese, well, that's because after I removed it from the brine and patted it down, it retained some moisture and I was worried it was too wet. By now, there is a bit of a rind on the outside (i will not know how thick until I cut into it...) I do note that this cheese is developing differently than my previous attempt. The rind is NOT becoming yellow, which my first attempt did. Now, it could be that this was because my first attempt was from one gallon of milk so the pancaking effect lead to a color shift, or maybe since it was in a very dry environment (leading to the cracking I described above), or maybe because I spread a thin coat of Canola Oil on it after it was dry initially. Not sure.

As to the rind flora, it may be developing, I am not sure. The middle of the wheel has some whitish powderish looking stuff on it. I've been afraid to wipe it off, because it might eventually develop into what is desired. Again, I am too new at this to know what I am looking at....

I really like the idea of vacuuming, but have not stepped up to purchasing one of those devices yet. So, cannot vacuum seal.  :-(


MargaretSmall - I am happy with the way it looks right now and hope that I am not destroying it by being in too dry of an environment. I thought I'd give it a month and then taste it, but it sure is hard to wait...

Hygrometer arrived today and was placed in the fridge with the Havarti. After a few hours (and right now) the temperature in there is 52.9 degrees F and the humidity is at 82%. Maybe I was worrying for no reason...

Is it vacuum sealed or waxed? 82% RH is extremely dry if not.

Neither waxed nor vacuum sealed. I thought I was doing good at 80%+ RH    :-[

Anyway, i went to flip the cheese last night and saw these really "gorgeous" colors of mold on it. So, this morning I took the following pictures:

The first one shows the red, white, and blue molds all over the cheese top. This was actually the bottom of the cheese, the one that the cheese was resting on for the past week.

The second picture is a close up of the red mold that I have not see mentioned on this board yet. Anyone care to tell me what that is?

The third picture is of the other side of the cheese and you can see that the red mold is just starting to appear there.

I know I have to take the blue mold off and will do so. What do I do with the red stuff? Throw this cheese out and start again? What could be the cause and how do I prevent it? Or, is it a normal/safe thing?


Thanks!

Hard to believe no one responded to your question. Holidaze?  ???

You have probably started to gently rub the affected areas with vinegar and salt to remove the red molds as well as blacks and blues that may have appeared. Don't let the cheese just sit there for a week. This is a moist cheese that cries out for attention on a regular basis.

-Boofer-

Thanks Boofer!

Yes, I figured out that my timing on asking the questions, stank to high heavens!!!   ^-^

Anyway, I did rub off the mold with a combination of vinegar and salt. Then did it again a week later. I'll repeat as needed for the next week and half until I am ready to cut into it and taste this creation. The only thing keeping me from cutting it earlier is my preparations for the first business trip of the year...

BTW - I also got a food saver and intend to take chunks of the Havarti and store it in the vacuum seal in the cave for a few more months to see how it develops. Finally - over the holidays I made a Gouda wheel as well and it is resting now in the same cheese cave. Interestingly, since I added the second wheel, the average cave humidity has gone up from the 80-85% range to the 85-90% range. Hmmm...

Today was the day I've been waiting for for a month or so. I cut into my Havarti to taste it.

drum roll please!

Once cut past the very thin rind, the cheese paste itself was still very creamy. It was only a little harder than a cold cream cheese (By the way, I first let it get up to room temperature for an hour before this cutting!) The color of it was pure white while the rind itself was a little yellowy. The thickness of the rind was less than one eighth of an inch.

Cut off a small chunk to taste. The first impression was of a very buttery and creamy cheese. The attack (to use the wine terminology that I am familiar with) was very good and caused me and my family to exclaim "yum!"

After a few seconds though, the acidity broke through and the flavor evolved into a less than positive direction. It became somewhat bitter-tasting.

I took the cheese wheel and cut it into quarters and put each into a food saver, labeled them, and they are back in the cheese cave to see how this develops over the coming months. The small wedge that we ate from is in the fridge in the same area, and packed the same way as the commercial cheeses we have to see how that develops.

Now to my question: the bitterness. Why? and what can be done to reduce it?

Thanks for the help as always.

P.S. - the Gouda wheel I have is also vacuum sealed now and will sit until it's at least three months old.

This is not acidity as you describe it because if it was acidic than it would have been brittle or crumbly at this point and display no elasticity. Sounds like it was soft so let's eliminate that as a cause.

The very pale paste in combination with bitterness may be clues to inferior quality milk (though not definitive). Where did you source your milk?  White is caused by lack of beta carotene in the cow's diet (in other words, it is not eating grass). This is normal for mid winter cheese and may be normal if you made it in middle to late fall if you live in colder drier climate such as the Northeastern US. But in combination with bitterness this could be related to medication that the cow takes, homogenization (that crushes far globules and affect lipolysis) and poor feed like fermented greens or grain.  Where did you get your milk from?

Another cause may be too much proteolysis (also consistent with very soft cheese) but I can't think of what would cause it in your case except for extremely high aging temp (say, over 60°F). Sounds like you aged it cold.

Was it sour at all like your other one?  Many times these things can be resolved by aging longer.  Make notes for your tasting for each of those sectioned vacuumed pieces and open them a month apart over the next few months to see how it affects them. Then compare your notes. Sounds like you are half way there already. You will soon figure out the optimal time for this one.

Thanks for the quick reply. I was thinking it was maybe a case of using too much Rennet, myself, but I am no expert.

My milk was sourced from the supermarket. It was homogenized, but not Ultra-Pasteurized. Where it came from? Who knows?!!  The first Havarti I made, which lead to this whole thread starting, was made from milk from a local farmer who promised me over and over again that they only flash pasteurize and do NOT homogenize. While I have no way of knowing if that was true or not, every cheese I attempted with their milk failed. So, for this second attempt, I went in a different direction.

As to where I live, I guess Pittsburgh, PA counts as being in the Northeastern part of the U.S.

This cheese is definiely NOT as sour as the previous one was. Not when I knitted the curds, nor now. It's been aging for five weeks. I am actually following your suggestion of sectioning it off and will try a small sliver every month or so.

Of course, if it is the milk, I have no idea where to turn to next as I have not found a source of milk in this area. Are there any repositories of such data on the internet?

I would guess at rennet also as another possible cause.

For what it's worth, I've found my havartis to be best at about 8 weeks.  So you've still got some good aging time to go.   :)

Supermarket milk usually comes from mixes from multiple industrial farms many miles away from each other, where cows living in closed quarters, usually don't see the light of day or pasture and are fed a cheap diet of corn, grains and fermented hay. In with the feed there is also a healthy dose of antibiotics that the cows receives whether they are sick or not as a preventative measure because this poor nutrition and holding conditions means poor health and poor milk. (In fact, did you know that 85% of all antibiotics in the US are given to cows? It's really horrific).  Even if the label doesn't say so, most supermarket milk these days (including the national organic brands) is ultra-pasteurized or HTST which virtually sterilizes it to kill anything in it (and with it also what little good stuff there may be, including beneficial probiotics and flora, enzymes and essential minerals such as Calcium). It's a poor cheesemaking candidate. Homogenization makes it even worst as it is no longer in its normal form. The fat globules are now part of the liquid, they are digestable and membranes that are meant to protect them and give them separate activity are now broken.  The fatty acids are a huge flavor producer in the milk (responsible for the sharpness of the cheese) and the homogenization also creates texture defects, often more dense or grainy than needed. Any antibiotics that have survived the

When that farmer claimed to have given you a non homogenized milk, all you have to do is look at the milk! If it is indeed non homogenized, you will see a layer of cream floating on top of the jug then the milk is cold (or remnants of free butterfat floating in the pot). The layer would be consistent with the milk fat (whole milk would be 4.8% of the bottle, 2% will be 2% of the bottle, nonfat would be nothing, etc.)  It is a bit harder to notice if the cows are Dutch Belted as they produce milk with tiny globules which makes it almost naturally homogenized. With Jersey cows you can expect much more fat, as much as 6.5% for a well-fed cow in the middle of summer.

If I may suggest, try to get good-quality non-homogenized local, grass-fed organic milk at your nearest Whole Food Market (5880 Centre Ave,
Pittsburgh, PA???). I realize it may be far more than you want to spend but do it for one cheese 0just so you can see the difference and you will have something to compare it too. My suggestion only.

I understand about the quality of the milk. Thanks iratherfly. Unfortunately, Pittsburgh is actually quite spread out and I live 25 miles away from the Whole Foods you mention. I need to find a closer source for better milk than the local supermarket chain.

On to other matters:

At a dinner last night i ventured my cheese out. We first let it get to room temp and then tasted it alongside a Taleggio; Goat Gouda; and a Manchego. Much to my surprise, the bitterness on the finish had completely disappeared! Not sure what the difference was besides 24 hours in the refrigerator... 

Tasting it now, the cheese is very creamy, but reminds me more of a Feta flavor without any salt than the butteriness of the commercial Havartis I am used to getting in the stores. The color of my homemade cheese is also very white. It was even whiter than the store bought Gouda, while the others cheeses were more yellowy. Again, compared to Havartis purchased in the store, this was much whiter.

Interesting!

Hi MacGruff,

I've found that some bitterness that I've detected in some of my cheeses also seems to vanish after a few days once the cheese has been cut into.  Congratulations on a successful cheese then!  Well done.

- Jeff

Hi McGruff,
A cheese to you for your achievement - well done. And thanks for starting this thread, as a fellow beginning Havarti maker, I've learnt a lot from this thread (thanks Ira and Jeff too).

Any time!

In that case...  I think it was just gas flavor. Yeasts, proprionic and diactetyl-producing bacteria digest nutrients and produce gas (much like when you are making bread).  This gas has a lot to do with the texture (eyes) of the cheese and as they go through the cheese they give it the aroma you expect it to have. If the cheese is closed, has a thick rind, waxed or especially vacuumed, you may have much of the gas still trapped in the crevices of the cheese and like old wine, it needs to breath a bit for these to be released into the air.  This is especially true with Havarti because made properly, this cheese has a particularly large number of small eyes for these gases to hide.

As for the white color, it is typical of winter milk and especially typical of industrial milk production where cows are not fed greens. The yellowness of the milk happens due to Beta Carotene in the cow's diet (and less of it is available in nature in the winter because there isn't much fresh green grass to munch on). Many commercial dairies use a few drops of Annatto extract to color the cheese. While it may not improve any nutritional, flavoring or aromatic property of the cheese, it will make it appear more yellow and familiar.  Be careful with Annatto, a little goes a long way!

Here is the listing of all PA Whole Foods locations: http://wholefoodsmarket.com/stores/pennsylvania/ (http://wholefoodsmarket.com/stores/pennsylvania/)
Also, check out this great raw milk resource if you are not familiar: http://www.realmilk.com/where08.html#pa (http://www.realmilk.com/where08.html#pa) - looks like there are tons of them in PA, including listings for Allegheny County and more listings for what seems like Pittsburgh proper.

Thanks, iratherfly. I went on the Whole Foods website and asked to consider putting in a store in my area. And also thanks for the listing of milk producers. I saw several leads that looked promising and I will check them out!

A cheese for your help!

Yay!

Would be amazing if you can get your hands on raw milk!  What's your next project?

I am trying to decide between a Colby and making some Cheddar Curds for Poutine...

Any suggestions?

Another month has passed, and I decided to try the cheese again.

I took a wedge out of the 'cave'; cut it out of the vacuum bag; and let it sit for a couple of hours at room temp before tasting it. Picture below is from this stage

First step was to sniff it. It definitely smelled right!. So, the next step was to cut off a slice and this is where things started to go bad:
- The cheese is relatively firm. Not as creamy as the commercial Havartis I am used to.
- It is also crumbly rather than creamy. Not bad enough to become like a crumbled Feta, but definitely not as smooth as I was hoping for.
- First taste is nice but then a bitterness comes in (this also happened during the previous tasting last month)
- the bitterness passes but then a certain sourness comes in.
- there is a long lasting finish flavor which I cannot put words on, but it is not a pleasant aftertaste.

I took the cheese and stored it in the fridge overnight - hoping that like last time, the bitterness will dissipate, but no luck. The flavor profile is the same.

OK, wise ones. What to do?

This wheel was made with supermarket milk and now I have a source of raw milk. I am thinking of following the same recipe, but what else should I change besides the milk? If anything??

Also, for those who use vacuum sealing. Why do we need a humid cheese cave if we are vacuum sealing?

Thanks for the help. Always appreciated!

:-\

Oh my, I totally missed out on your follow up post.

What you are describing sounds like a little too much acid buildup and perhaps too long of a flocculation. Did you get the signature small eyes of Havarti? This could also be related to the low quality milk. If it is homogenized than it doesn't ripen the same because the fat globules have been modified and fat is one of the most important flavor and texture components in any cheese.

I would try again with your new raw milk. You should see a significant difference (and higher yield too.

The acid buildup could happen if you let the milk ripen too long before renneting, or if your rennet period (flocculation) is too long. If these were fine, then the issue could be related to a buildup of acid later, in the press (room too warm), brining (brine too warm or too acidic), drying (dry at warm room temperature for too long). These situations cause the lactic bacteria to work hard and fast, producing too much lactic acid too fast. The bacteria will eat up the sugars and die off before any sufficient breakdown of fat/proteins has taken place.  Press in cool room (65°F), use cool brine (55°F), dry in the cave or cool room (60°F-65°F).

No need for any humidity control or monitoring in the cave if you are aging in vacuum!