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 Here is the mission, if you wish to accept it......

I am following Linuxboy tomme recipe with sheep milk, and I want to achieve certain characteristics:

I want the texture to be dry but flexible, not soft creamy or buttery(texture)  = small curds rice size, and hotter cooking 104F, floc target? floc. multiplier?

I want nutty buttery taste with no bitter or picant flavor ( maybe washed curd?) but I don't want boring mild taste, I want it to have some character... to be appealing to someone who is not an expert in strong cheeses and yet not be boring taste, kind of mild interesting = high pH drain 6.3? , high pH brine 5.4?

I want it to be ready in a relative short time like 4-6 moths = Add thermophilic cultures for faster ripening
and now for the good part.. I have to use pasteurized milk,(Friesian Sheep)

Here in Mexico the dealer for Danisco doesn't carry the whole line of starters (they don't have MA400/401 or Kazu, or FLAV series)

I have access to :
( Meso) Flora Danica, CHN11,CHN19 , MA11, MM100, Sacco MA030, MS064CP
(Thermo): TA061, LH100, TA051

So far I have used using FD+TA061
                                      FD+TA061+LH100+propionoc  for nutty flav?
and I am in the process of trying more combinations of the above with the floc+cut+cook+drain+brine pointers you can suggest to me
thank you in advance!!

Quotedry but flexible,

Wash 10-15%, drain @ 6.3-6.4, brine @ 5.4, cook to MFFB of 37%.

Quotefloc target?

12-14 mins, rennet @ 6.5-6.55

Quotefloc. multiplier?

2.5-3x

Quotenutty buttery taste

Use CHN19+ rhamonosus or paracasei + helveticus. FLAV, CR, LB, series and/or LBC 80/81 similar. Put .02% bulk equivalent MD series into evening milk after pasteurizing it.

Quotemaybe washed curd?

Yes, it will help to marry high calcium with washed curd for better sliceability.

Quotehigh pH drain 6.3? , high pH brine 5.4?

Yes, or higher on drain. Play around with it, you might want to do 5.3 on brine.

QuoteFD+TA061 FD+TA061+LH100+propionoc  for nutty flav?

Not enough texturing, aroma, and flavor adjuncts. You will not achieve what you want, unless you have native NSLAB.

Quoteloc+cut+cook+drain+brine pointers you can suggest to me

See above, it should be good for your paste and moisture. With a scald of 104F, rice size curd, it should take about 30-40 mins to reach right drain point.

Wow! thank you soo much LB!! you are the man!!(cheese)
will post the results as soon as they come along

please keep in mind that modern cheeses like the one you are crafting are mostly very technical cheeses, adjuncted and manufactured with specific strains of bacteria to achieve distinctive flavors. This is the best way forward if you want to create something interesting, to use commercial strains. Another possibility is the native NSLAB approach, but this tends to happen in established dairies and cheese plants. So most likely you do need to see how you can buy some adjuncts and try them out.

LB;
Do you know of any practice either in the cheesemaking process or in the milk parlor or in the feeding of the animals that helps in any way the development of good NSLAB in a new place, or does it just happens?

do you know another source of LB Paracasei other than LBC 80/81? and a source of LB Rhamonosus?( I will find them no mater what it takes)

Is this a good source of LB? (delbrueckii bulgaricus) (attached picture)

thanks again LB!!

I was just going to suggest Danisco Choozit LBC82. I am waiting for it to arrive and will do my first "accelerated tomme" with it next week. Its lactobacillus paracasei (unlike the LBC 80 which is lactobacillus casei ssp rhamnosus). They should do quite similar function but the 82 works in a cooler temperature range so it is better for smaller wheels and also for surface ripened stuff as well as Tommes. It is however twice the price

Thank you Irather,  I am having trouble finding secondary or adjunct cultures because Hansen and Danisco sell to small producers through dealers who don't have clue about anything, nevertheless I talked to a someone directly at Danisco and they are looking into possibly bringing some.

I am starting this operation that focuses on the international market. Do you want me to see about getting you cultures? (I also have equipment, instruments, moulds etc. now)

That would be really great Iratherfly!
besides the cultures I am also looking for a vat and several other things.

Send me a private message with what you need and your address and I will price it out for you

Hi iratherfly.

I have similar issues getting hold of small quantities of less commonly used cultures such as the adjuncts.

Is there a possibility of shipping to Australia?  have you ever done this?

Thanks.

NVD.

Quote
high pH drain 6.3? , high pH brine 5.4?
Yes, or higher on drain. Play around with it, you might want to do 5.3 on brine.

I am keen to explore what is happening around the pH at brining.  I have done a fair bit of cheesemaking training but this has never (??) cropped up.  What would be the difference between brining this cheese at pH 6.3 compared to 6.4?

NVD

From the little I am beginning to grasp, brining halts acid production so if you do the opposite and press for too long you end up with over acidified cheese, that takes longer to age/mature

QuoteWhat would be the difference between brining this cheese at pH 6.3 compared to 6.4?

You mean 5.3 vs 5.4?

In most cheeses, this small difference does not produce much of a difference in flavor or other characteristics. In some cheeses, especially emmenthaler, it does, to a point, because then you're dealing with conditions suitable to secondary fermentation for PAB. For emmenthaler, for example. 5.5 would be terrible, because it would cause too much gas production. 5.4 would be barely tolerable. 5.3 would be perfect, and 5.2 would be borderline too low.

What we're dealing with when we talk about tommes, though, is mostly the entire balance of bound up colloidal calcium and unbound calcium. In lamen's terms, from the point you add rennet, you start creating a gel. That milk has a certain degree of calcium degradation. And when you form the gel, the degradation continues, its rate of reaction and breadth influences by the gel properties, such as water, fat levels, casein subtype buffering capacity, etc. And you take that calcium balance to your desired target by controlling curd fuse pH and brine pH.

pH at brine also has to do in a related way with something more important: residual lactose. If a cheese does not acidify enough, there will be residual lactose and lactic acid production that will be uneven in the cheese, which does cause flavor defects. The range of 5.2-5.4 in a high calcium cheese is typically seen as a good range for the right level of lactose conversion and paste to coincide with the rennet and drain targets.

Quotebrining halts acid production

Kind of... It does slow it down a good deal, often enough to stop further acidification to no more than .2 pH. Not a dead stop, can sometimes have drift of .3.

Quote
so if you do the opposite and press for too long you end up with over acidified cheese, that takes longer to age/mature

Generally, this is true. But to me, the overacidification is more about the calcium mismatches. For example, rennetting at 6.5, fusing at 6.35, would require brining at no lower than 5.3. Whereas, renetting at 6.4, fusing at 6.1, could go to 5.1, and would give a crumblier paste (unless you wash the heck out of it, which would mean the pH would stop around 5.4 due to less lactose)

Interesting.

In Australia we are taught to pre-ripen the starter culture (for all cheeses) for an hour (in 1L of UHT milk) which is then added to the cheese milk vat just prior adding rennet.  No account is taken of milk pH at rennet.  I will now start to do this.

I guess in a training situation when time is limited they pre-ripen to ensure the day goes smoothly.

How important is milk pH at the addition of rennet?

NVD

Quotewhich is then added to the cheese milk vat just prior adding rennet.

For DVI starter? That's a good way to go.

QuoteNo account is taken of milk pH at rennet.  I will now start to do this.

You must take into account the change in ph from beginning to the point of adding rennet. Milk varies, so the change is a better tool than absolute pH.

Quote
How important is milk pH at the addition of rennet?

Crucial. Milk pH determines set time. For example, 6.5 milk sets up 15-20% faster than 6.6 milk. This is mitigated by using floc method, but floc is more about moisture (MFFB) consistency, whereas pH curve is about calcium balance.

So pre-ripen with DVI is good practice.

But don't add rennet to milk until a pH drop of (??) has been achieved?  This is a drop from post-pasteurisation to the post-addition of pre-ripened starter? 

I guess what this ensures is that there is a given amount of acid ready to affect all of the cascading processes from then on... (??)

The cut on a multiplier of flocc.

Is the pH drop of the milk after addition of the starter specific to a particular type of cheese?  If so what are the recommendations for say a washed curd tomme and a cam?

NVD.

Sorry, I meant to say " Then cut on a multiplier of flocc."

QuoteSo pre-ripen with DVI is good practice.

You must. Usually, at least 30-45 mins. You can add directly to vat, or do it in a bucket with UHT milk. I prefer bucket, then add premixed to vat, just like using a mother that way, no need to adjust the recipe and have all that milk sitting in the vat. Even more, I prefer priming and making a mother from DVI.

Quoteuntil a pH drop of (??) has been achieved?

Yes, amount depends on the cheese. Usually .1-.15.

QuoteThis is a drop from post-pasteurisation to the post-addition of pre-ripened starter? 

Delta between milk in vat to milk after starter addition.

QuoteI guess what this ensures is that there is a given amount of acid ready to affect all of the cascading processes from then on

Yes, it's a way to standardize the make, and also help ensure a good set. I mean, a set at 6.6 for rennet add for cheddar, it's not that great. A set at 6.55 or 6.5, that tends to work better with the acidity curve.

QuotepH drop of the milk after addition of the starter specific to a particular type of cheese?

Yes, alpine types you don't tend to wait as long, neither do you with tommes. a .05 drop is not bad then. But for bloomies and normal continentals, usually .1-.15

QuoteIf so what are the recommendations for say a washed curd tomme and a cam?

Washed curd tomme is .1, cam is .1-.15.

This is good stuff. I'm busy copying and pasting to my notes folder. Thanks, LB.

Very timely too since I'll be doing my Tomme tomorrow.  ;)

LB: Did you get a chance to see my intended culture mix for tomorrow? Any adjustments needed? It's in your Tomme recipe thread.

-Boofer-

Try the mix and see what you get. There are many right answers :)

Yep, I kinda figured that after I'd thrown that query out there.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/You+pays+your+money)  ;)

-Boofer-

More tomme rind discussion...

I have been washing the rind of my washed curd tomme with a 5% brine and PLA every 2 or 3 days.  It is now 4 weeks since I made it (13/12/11) and I am looking for some guidance.

I am thinking I will now vacuum pack it for the next 6 months.  After I take it out I will oil it every couple of days for a couple of weeks to harden it up.

Any comments?

NVD

It's up to you, of course. What has happened by now is you likely have a great, firm rind on it, and your wash has gotten progressively more smelly. With this firm rind, everything the bacteria and yeasts produce, it does not penetrate quickly. Neither can molds and other flora establish themselves well. You likely have a very pretty color, fairly even and without excess molds or spots.

If you vac pac and age out now, it will save you some water, but you also will sacrifice a little flavor development when you stop washing. That's why alpines are washed with morge repeatedly, to help all the enzymes penetrate and create more complex aromas and flavors. But, you do gain some stability and save time when you pack.

So in the end, I think go for it and see if you like the outcome. After 4-5 weeks, it should be stable enough to age in bags. Before you bag, make sure the wheel dries out for a few days; stop washing.

Thanks.

I think I will vacuum pack it, then take it out 3 weeks prior to use and give it a wash with Mycoderm to finish it off.  Vacuuming in the interim will reduce my workload, I hope.

This is what it looks like now...

Quote from: linuxboy on December 08, 2011, 11:08:55 PM

Quotedry but flexible,

Wash 10-15%, drain @ 6.3-6.4, brine @ 5.4, cook to MFFB of 37%.

Quotefloc target?

12-14 mins, rennet @ 6.5-6.55

Quotefloc. multiplier?

2.5-3x

Quotenutty buttery taste

Use CHN19+ rhamonosus or paracasei + helveticus. FLAV, CR, LB, series and/or LBC 80/81 similar. Put .02% bulk equivalent MD series into evening milk after pasteurizing it.

Quotemaybe washed curd?

Yes, it will help to marry high calcium with washed curd for better sliceability.

Quotehigh pH drain 6.3? , high pH brine 5.4?

Yes, or higher on drain. Play around with it, you might want to do 5.3 on brine.

QuoteFD+TA061 FD+TA061+LH100+propionoc  for nutty flav?

Not enough texturing, aroma, and flavor adjuncts. You will not achieve what you want, unless you have native NSLAB.

Quoteloc+cut+cook+drain+brine pointers you can suggest to me

See above, it should be good for your paste and moisture. With a scald of 104F, rice size curd, it should take about 30-40 mins to reach right drain point.

Pav - despite my best intentions, I'm back to playing with my food.  If my recent rebs are receiving nothing but straight saline brine (2 linens, Geo15 and DH; MM100 as acidifier in the vat), I'm wanting to see what fun can be had, using the morge I blended for my beauforts - which I was extremely pleased with - in a tomme, of sorts. 

I'd like a buttery, nutty, probably creamier and moister tomme than elkato, with who knows what obtains from the morge.  Basically, planning:

-a MA4001 starter (missing the mesenteroides from the CHN19 per your recommendation above, but picking up the ST - and a proportional addition of LH100),
-some reasonable propionic, based on past usage;
-washed curd
-both vat inoculation, and morge wash, with what should be now native to my cooler:

Yeast: (14%)
DH (11.2%)
Geo 15: 2.8%

Arthrobacter (4.2%)
MGE: (4.2%)

lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2.8%)
LBC-80 (2.8%)

Linens (75%)
SR3: (21.5%)
FR13: (25.2%)
FR22: (28.1%)

Micro-Cocci: 7%
MVA (xylosum) (7%)

3,5X multiplier, shooting for high rennet and drain pH, as usual.  Basically, the obverse of a past Beaufort discussion - a soft Beaufort, if a Beaufort is a harder tomme (interesting and enlightening concept, folks - but then, we all know that of Pav). 

Best guess - what do you think would obtain, organoleptically (love that word)?  Perhaps here, too - just a straight brine, esp. given the "morge" vat inoculation?  Thus far, my rebs are progressing in a much more pleasing way - slower, drier, Geo and DH have made their appearance and there's every expectation these will be "dusty" and not "epoisse like."  I digress.  Just curious on your thought of straight brine, here, v. morge washing, given the above (and what you know of my cave).  I hope the discussion is helpful to others, as always.

Tired of reading abstruse Frenchmen, in the French rhetorical tradition.  Cider, bread, cheese, Hardy and of course, papa, John Fowles.  So give me a physical act....s'il vous plait.

QuoteBest guess - what do you think would obtain,

In my opinion, speaking from personal experience, the end result of these endeavors shall be.....


.... a cheese.

(traveling, will answer later)

 ;D


Phew.  I thought I was going to have to get physical with this thing, and I'm in no condition. 

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/Martial%20Arts/kumijo.jpg)

I did say "moister, creamier" for a reason.  Beauforts kick my .....

Edit:  I should add, there will be a small amount of LH100 as well, in the vat.

Very useful and extremely interesting Arnaud! I have my notebook and pencil ready!
In one of my tryouts I did put some LH 100 and propionic to the vat( and LBC-80, and KL71 and Linens)
by the way how do you meassure percentages of starters?

I am keenly following this one!

I get a kick out of looking at the recipe and pulling it apart to try and 'see' what you want to achieve...

Could you please tell  me what the following are?

Yeast: (14%) - any particular one?
MGE: (4.2%)
FR13: (25.2%)
FR22: (28.1%)

Given the complex ingredients list (is there anything else you could add? :) ) what are you hoping to achieve with the LH100?

NVD.

I think this is way too much mixology... Tommes are simple and focused. They are all about milk quality, creative affinage and good technique. In fact, many traditional French cheesemakers don't even use starter culture, they do totally natural fermentation of raw milk, using nothing more than what mother nature has put in it (with similar attitude towards affinage). I have a more simplistic attitude:

So to start it off: you will want something that has the 3 foundation cultures: lactis, cremoris and diacetylactis. These exist in the very common starter culture mixes out there, including MM100 series, MA4000 series, Flora Danica, Probat 222 and Kazu.

Traditionally Tommes are made with farmstead culture (mix of thermo and meso). Of the cultures I mentioned above, MA4000 and the Kazu are such cultures -as they contain thermophilic strains.  The rest of the cultures will require the adition of a thermophilic strain such as TA culture.

For buttery notes: focus on the diacetylactis. Flora Danica and Probat 222 has a fourth specie (mesenteroides) that makes up a far more robust buttery flavor and aroma. You can also add more butter by doubling the already-existing diacetylactis in any of the cultures mentioned above; simply add a pinch of MD89.

For nutty notes: focus on the thermophilic part of the culture. Specifically effective is Helveticus, which is part of mixes such as LH100, Thermo C and Kazu. Helveticus has another useful application in promoting proprionic bacteria at later stages. This combination may give you more of the nutty-sweet character, (but may require a warm affinage stage later on, followed by normal cave aging again). I think someone here mentions that they wanted proprionic.

My suggestions for starter cultures for achieving your goal is therefore, to mix Kazu + a healthy addition of MD89. Optional LBC80 series culture (which was mentioned here by someone) may strengthen character without competing with any of the other species but it is a fairly expensive and you can get the same results if you just age the Tomme a few more weeks.

For rind: you can do a lot with natural rind. I would maybe put a surface yeast like KL71 and a pinch of Mycodore or Geo 15 to start it off and deacidify it but the rest can be produced in your cave naturally.  Here is something I did recently: I took wood chips from a local farmer (he sells those for smoking). These are from local Oak, Masquite and Cedar woods. I put them on a paper towel in the bottom of an aging container and moistened them heavily on a regular basis. The cheese was aged on a grille atop the chips and air was pumped into the box 24/4. Gorgeous colorful, mushroomy rind with tons of character - hooray to local terroir! Here's a photo:

Let's agree that the word "tomme" is itself a very loose term for a family of cheeses made in the mountainous areas of France; as Madeleine Kamman says, "tomme, toma or tome in patois, is the generic name given in the Savoie to all soft paste cheese not of the Gruyère type."  There are tommes in all milks; there are tommes with incredibly mottled rinds, tommes with velvet-smooth, gray rinds.  From previous discussions with Pav and Francois, my understanding is that you'll find mycodore more common in pyrenees tommes.  In the classic tomme grise of the Savoie, mucor predominates.  So it is a very large house of tastes and traditions, no one thing (unlike many other "houses" tending to stricter traditions).

I'll say, regarding my above posts, this is a morge blend I put together, for use in my Beauforts.  It was highly successful - my highest praise probably came from an elder Swiss woman, old school, and very particular about her gruyeres - visiting her daughter, said (not to me, but to her daughter) it's the best she'd ever had, which pleased me to no end. 

The blend came off of many hours of conversation with Pav, as well as my own research of French AOC, and English and French research on the rind flora of Gruyere generally, and Beauforts in particular.  I also wanted to simply play with my food, with the eventual hope I would create a "cave" that contained natural, ambient flora very close to something I'd hope for, were my cave in the Savoie.  As to the percents of this mix, they were simply my parsing - again, from discussions with Pav, also my best guess, off of research into these cheeses, and my own, on the properties of each of the listed strains.

Now, that being said, I've wanted to play with something of what I'd see in a Savoie farm - doing soft cheeses in winter, going to tommes year round, and Beauforts on spring and summer milk.  Controlling, really, vat technique (acid, moisture, etc.), with few other changes.  Of course, I no longer have commercial intents, so I don't really care what happens, so long as the cheeses are pleasing to myself, my loved ones and friends. 

So - that means my (in)famed "morge blend" may get a lot of action, across - and these are in quotes for a purpose - "reblochon", "tomme" and "Beaufort."  What Yoav is calling "too much mixology."  (we've had this discussion before, on Beaufort).  Or, it may not.  Right now, for instance, my "rebs" got Geo15, DH, 2 different linens (SR3, LB) in the vat, and are receiving a straight brine wash otherwise.  I presume the cave, established now, will do the rest. 

Thank you Yoav! extremely useful info! I think that Arnauld pointed out the main difference in our approaches is that I, (I think that Nibbin also?) am trying to start a small scale commercial creamery in my brand new sheep dairy.  so all the time and effort spent learning and working all night, is going thowards gathering a few consintent repeatable recipes of products that are appealing to the costumers in my area (also brand new hobby/obsession) 
This of goal of course will take a long time ( I just began 4 months ago) so all the input is greatly welcome 

Quote from: elkatoby the way how do you meassure percentages of starters?

Sorry, Elkato, missed this originally.  If you're asking how much mother culture I use in my alpines - and the nod for this approach goes to Sailor Con Queso, with Pav's add'l contributions - I tend to stay at around 1% bulk equivalent, the day of the make.  This affords me a balance between a slow enough ripening period and, generally, a decently slow acid curve - I can control the entire process, keep the parameters of play wide enough so I can rennet and press relatively high pH, preserve Ca, give the elasticity I shoot for - a balance between this, and too long a ripening window, in which unwanted beasties have a chance to climb aboard and thrive, making unwanted contributions.  Just my personal experience that coming in at 1.5% or better, and everything takes place too quickly, for my comfort.  I tend to a "slower is better" preference, which I know Pav has mentioned periodically. 

I must mention that I have that luxury - again, whereas I once was working very hard with an eye to eventually doing this commercially, I now have all the luxury of time in the world, to do as I please.  I think it was Sailor who once made this point - yes, slower is "better," generally; but there's also a reality of finite time and resources to deal with, when one is doing this for a living.  The bear with all of this - as in most things - is that there is a tradeoff, and one must make choices according to one's needs and wants, which are often, unfortunately, in something like a zero-sum game. 

Is this what you were asking?

Paul and I had this discussion before.

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on January 15, 2012, 02:13:39 PM
Let's agree that the word "tomme" is itself a very loose term for a family of cheeses made in the mountainous areas of France; as Madeleine Kamman says, "tomme, toma or tome in patois, is the generic name given in the Savoie to all soft paste cheese not of the Gruyère type."  There are tommes in all milks; there are tommes with incredibly mottled rinds, tommes with velvet-smooth, gray rinds.  From previous discussions with Pav and Francois, my understanding is that you'll find mycodore more common in pyrenees tommes.  In the classic tomme grise of the Savoie, mucor predominates.  So it is a very large house of tastes and traditions, no one thing (unlike many other "houses" tending to stricter traditions).

Totally agree, I too look at Tomme as a generic platform for cheesemaking rather than an actual specific cheese. My mere suggestions are meant to simplify the process and create a basic focused cheese where the cheesemaking process can be tested and perfected before going deeper into what I call "mixology" - use of a wide variety of cultures that are sourced from the ground, plant and animals of different world regions and get them to coexist in one cheese to achieve a desired flavor, texture, appearance or aroma.

Paul,

Quote from: ArnaudForestier on January 15, 2012, 02:13:39 PMWhat Yoav is calling "too much mixology."  (we've had this discussion before, on Beaufort).

that was not meant to offend you or second guess your mix. My thought process is that one may be better off first making a simple Tomme with simple adjustments of cultures to tune it up a bit, so when they are confident about it and taste the change they can start using the more sophisticated culture adjustments slowly but surely, making small adjustment in each make until they get to their desirable goal.  My feeling is that venturing straight into such complex mix may leave the cheesemaker wondering which strain did what and why, - rather clueless about how to adjust it (unless the cheesemaker is extremely experienced). It also may requires a library of rather expensive cultures in the freezer.

The step-by-step little-at-a-time methodology is not my idea, it's an industry best practice that I have learned from master cheesemakers far more experienced than myself.  I was amazed to see what they can do with next to nothing in terms of cultures to get the most out of their natural milk and affinage conditions.
In other words, I am not against your mixology, I just think that there are a few steps to get there.

Also, it is worth asking the question of whether you are trying to make your own original cheese with your own milk, environment and circumstances, or are you trying to make a replica of a cheese of another place, milk, environment and circumstances. There is no wrong or right answer to this and both could be equally wonderful or horrendous failures, but answering this question helps to clearly define the design principles of the specific cheese that you are embarking upon making.

By the way, Mycodore is cylindrocarpon, a fungi from a large family of plant and soil pathogens that is very common in Savoie cheese. In particular Tomme de Savoie and Tomme Crayeuse. You can find in in Pyrenees cheeses too but it grows less on them because they are drier and the weather is typically hotter. My suggestion was to use it as a starter for rind activity because it's rather neutral and can work with variety of flavor and aroma profiles, no matter where you take your rind to. It can grow out of control but can be fought back with competing geo

Yoav, I'm certainly not offended.  I would just caution against sweeping statements, e.g., "way too much mixology," when these are just approaches, among many.  We indeed have had this discussion before, and if folks are interested, I'd be glad to find the series of posts discussing same.  I would also argue that one can achieve both transparency, and a complexity of flavor by an interesting use of cultures, derived from research.  One can also go totally native, for an equally interesting result.  I certainly feel very happy with using Ayshire raw milk, with a Beaufort that in my opinion, hit a home run of both transparency, and depth of flavor from the morge blend I worked on and my process in using it. 

I'm aware mycodore is a cylindrocarpon.  I cannot speak authoritatively on mycodore and regionality - have not read much original research on mycodore, much less, mycodore and the Savoie (v. pyrenees and other cheeses).  Just going off something said once by Francois (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,573.msg12016.html#msg12016), whose opinion I very early relied on (and continue to respect):

QuoteMycodore and Mycoderm are the yeast and mould used in Pyrenees style cheeses.  In my old cheese factory I made a goat tomme that looked very similar to that one. 

I was pretty green then (still am), and perhaps I over-read his comment to mean, it wasn't common in Savoie cheeses.  I think an exchange with Pav, as well, led this way.  I could be wrong - my memory does have some lacunae. 

Ultimately, I say, play, play, play, and see what happens.

FWIW, I started my Tomme #5 ten days ago with the following:

• 1/2 tsp MA4001 (LL,LC,LD,ST)
• 1/16 tsp LH
• 1/8 tsp PLA
• 1/32 tsp Mycodore
• 1/16 tsp LM057

I'm washing with a simple 3% brine this time around...nothing fancy. With this cheese I'm just aiming for a simple natural rind as opposed to earlier "complex" rinds that developed.

My previous effort used:

• 1/4 tsp Kazu (LL,LC,LD,LH)
• 1/16 tsp TA61
• 1/8 tsp PLA
• 1/32 tsp Mycodore

So not a lot changed. I just shuffled the LH out of the Kazu and put the ST(TA61) into the MA4001. The significant change was adding the LM057 (http://www.artisancheesemakingathome.com/pdfs/cultures.pdf).

This morning when I washed the wheel there is a fine white bloom coming on, presumably from the Geo and the Mycodore.

-Boofer-

Thanks again Arnaud! what I meant about measuring starters was (badly phrased question) about your morge recipe which you describe with very exact quantities (percentages) of the different yeasts-molds. I made an interpretation of a Comte and spent lots of time combing through Pav's explanations on how to make one(morge) but I had only bits and pieces of it, and your list sheds light on how to make one.
your explanation on quantities of acidifying cultures is also helpful since in the small scale recipes everything is in tsp.. just one thouhgt this 1% bulk is also for freeze dried packets?
I should add that my homestead dairy enterprise is not my main income so making it work is not life/death nevertheless I hope to do so, and being able to market a quality cheese (my own interpretation) with my milk will be a large part of the reward.

elkato, both of Boofer's combinations here are perfect for getting a simple Tomme with nutty, buttery essence and a classic Savoie style rind.

Paul, this wasn't meant to be a sweeping statement (though reading my post I can see why it looked like that). I simply meant to say that this is a very complex mix and there is a simpler practice of creating a great core make first, then advancing towards this sophisticated "mixology" step-by-step rather than starting out with it. 

Raw milk is a gorgeous lively substance.  It is precious, rare and tells a great story. I personally feel I awe it the respect of telling me its story before I render any major manipulation. It's sort of like tasting the food on the plate in front of you before you add salt and pepper to gauge how much it actually needs -if any. (eh, ...it just takes a lot longer!) Know what I mean?

I have nothing against cultures, in fact, I regularly test the limits of all of the ones you mentioned: mycodore, mycoderm, MVA, PLA, ARN, different geos, linens and PCs, CUM, KL, R2R, Shermanii, LBC and lactic bacterial mix galore. You name it - I have it in my freezer ready to go. The only difference is that rather than prescribing a mix which is assumed to be right for my milk, I test and add a little at a time, until the natural milk activity + my augmentation of cultures  = the results I seek. After all, your milk and my milk may be entirely different if they are from different animals in different conditions with a different diet and even the local plants and yeasts are different. Why treat them the same?  I hope I explained myself better now

Thanks Again Yoav! One of the biggest challenges I have is that by law in Mexico now I have to pasteurize my milk, for now they don't even have the 60 days OK thing, so that is why I am bent obsessed in finding and trying the best combination of cultures that can give me an acceptable flavor profile (many kindly recommended in this thread!)
Boofer in your recipe you mention "natural" rind but in the make you are adding PLA=Brevibacterium linens Arthrobacter nicotianae Debaryomyces hanseni  Geotrichum candidum plus mycodore so isn't the plain 5% brine just moistening the rind so all of this added mix of bacteria/mold/yeast can grow?
one more question is it OK to call a member by his "real" name once you know it, (more personal/friendly) or is doing that "blowing his cover" of anonymity in the forum?
By the way my real name is Luis.

Thanks for the lively discussion as usual. A few thoughts:

- That blend for morge is decidedly not too much mixology. It's expensive, to be sure, but not out of line... for a morge. After it settles itself out over a few months, it should make for a lovely blend.
- What I find more challenging is the use of morge on tomme... which is not traditional.

Here's how tomme generally might work IMHO, if we're trying to stick to something resembling traditional sensibilities and motivations yet achieve softer paste and butteryness.
- Lower fat than what whole milk offers, more like the milk for comte.
- a moderately high moisture level, using 3/8"-1/2" curds and 3x floc, depending on  the milk. About 40-42 MFFB
- use molds for buttery effect (IMHO, a morge when used with a wash schedule like a beaufort will result in excess proteolysis)

So it's like Yoav said... start with excellent milk, rely on some diacetyl strains for more flavor, and adjunct with a known strain of something to add texture and flavor, like helveticus or paracasei. Or rely on native mesophilic lactobacilli.

What boofer posted look like decent mixes for a try.

For the rind, I think it is best on a tomme to wash or dunk a few times to inoculate, and then leave it alone. Let it grow out and die back, then brush back and do a few more washes for appearance and rind management. Once you start a complex succession on a rind, I've found it best to let it do its thing... anything else, and you're constantly fighting the cheese and not working with it. As for the rind mix... morge would be OK, and generally, molds work very well, as do mold/linens or mold/micrococci blends. They will give a proper paste and more flavor within 60-90 days, appropriate for a tomme

Yoav, I think it's sometimes hard online to understand each other.  We've had this discussion in the past, and I do appreciate your approach - as mentioned then, having cooked French food over the last, what, 40 years or thereabouts, the "single-variable", systematic manipulation was my way forward, as well.  As to the morge I developed, clearly an engineered mix, as ironic as it seems, it was with an eye to eventual economy - to develop a cave with this diverse blend, and then rely on that mature cave, as any fermier maker.  While I cannot agree that the use of complex flora necessarily "masks," for want of a better word, the transparency (a desired thing) of a good milk - after all, the biodiversity of fermier makers is mapped, and known for its incredible range - I do think it's a shame to "kill" a raw milk, by poor make technique and excess manipulation.  Your tommes, above the wood chips, look gorgeous, by the way.

Thanks, Pav, as usual.  I think I'll try a tomme, using the morge as an initial wash, then leave it alone - again, an experiment to see 3 cheeses in one cave, as if it were, actually, on an existing farm, across the seasons.  The morge is heavy in yeasts and linens, however, not molds (the Geo is yeast form), so we'll see what obtains. 

Quote from: elkato on January 16, 2012, 10:54:27 AM
Boofer in your recipe you mention "natural" rind but in the make you are adding PLA=Brevibacterium linens Arthrobacter nicotianae Debaryomyces hanseni  Geotrichum candidum plus mycodore so isn't the plain 5% brine just moistening the rind so all of this added mix of bacteria/mold/yeast can grow?

Maybe the word natural is too generic. In my mind (and limited cheesemaking experience) natural conveys a meaning such as what a cheese rind would develop in a genuine cheese cave environment where the cultures and flora have developed over a broad expanse of time and use. I don't happen to have access to one of those genuine caves. All I have are two small (4.5cu ft) refrigerators that I have been using for several years now. There may be some residual flora attaching to the inner walls of my caves from previous makes, but I give each new cheese a start down the path with a combination of cultures derived from the combined wisdom on the forum (thanks, guys!).

And yes, the 3% brine wash helps maintain a moist environment for the linens, geo, mycodore, etc. to take hold, but it and the washing/brushing also act to reduce the incidence of unwanted molds, etc.

-Boofer-

Yes, Boofer, even kitchen environments for cheese develop their own moulds. I've found that to my cost. I once experimented withe the natural Glasgow blue and the resulting taste was foul. I now have to watch any blues that I make; that they do develop the mould I add and not the one lurking about the house/cave. I also made a creamy Lancashire last year that developed a p.c. rind. I left it to see what would happen. Big mistake! After a month, the skin slipped right off and it looked like a huge damaged Camembert. I rescued the inside and it made an OK, if bland, melting cheese.

Even sanitising all equipment and the 'caves' doesn't always get rid of indigenous flora, though I'm now trying to encourage the moulds I want by rubbing them around the boxes I use for aging.

Quote from: elkato on January 16, 2012, 02:35:09 AM
Thanks again Arnaud! what I meant about measuring starters was (badly phrased question) about your morge recipe which you describe with very exact quantities (percentages) of the different yeasts-molds. I made an interpretation of a Comte and spent lots of time combing through Pav's explanations on how to make one(morge) but I had only bits and pieces of it, and your list sheds light on how to make one.
your explanation on quantities of acidifying cultures is also helpful since in the small scale recipes everything is in tsp.. just one thouhgt this 1% bulk is also for freeze dried packets?
I should add that my homestead dairy enterprise is not my main income so making it work is not life/death nevertheless I hope to do so, and being able to market a quality cheese (my own interpretation) with my milk will be a large part of the reward.

Elkato, it's important to keep in mind that not only do I no longer have the intent to do this commercially, but that Yoav and Pav (Linuxboy) have made the good point, that tommes, typically, have a good mold balance (though you will find tons of variations on species, as well as balance with linens mottling, etc.).  If it wasn't clear, my intent on keeping this morge blend as a component, was (1) precisely because I had successfully crafted a Beaufort blend that worked really well; (2) it was always my intent, especially when I was doing my R & D with the intent of commercially doing this, to develop a stable "cave" with a large range of biodiversity, flora I have come to know from research on alpine rind and paste flora.  So, as I said above, essentially, doing cheeses through the seasons, as any French fermier does, using what's in their cave.  The only difference is that my "cave" was not based on an underground grotto, from my father and mother progenitors stretching hundreds of years ago.  I'm heavily French - professionally cooking the food since about 12, French blooded, into most things French, culturally (maddening as the literature can be, at times, to me).  Hence, my basic drive here. 

Now, all that said:  The percentages are repeated below.  I will bold basic categories, so it's a bit clearer (e.g., "yeast" is 14% of the blend; of these, there are two yeasts - DH, and Geo 15 - Geo. Cand. expressing in mold and yeast forms, Geo 15 being yeast form).  You will see that DH is 11.2% of the total blend, and Geo 15 is 2.8% of the total blend - totalling 14%.  Hope that clears it up.  The sub-names are brand names - e.g., "DH" is Debaromyces hansenii, a yeast, provided by Danisco.  Geo 15, Geotrichum candidum, is geo, in its yeast-expression.  For the Beaufort, I wanted this, over Geo 13, a mold-form geo.

You'll note there are two "blends."  This was due to the fact I had less of some linens than I had thought I had, so in the middle of the blend, I had to change up on percentages.  Looking back on my notes, I had a total of 7.13 grams in cultures.  I can only offer that what I ended up with, I was very happy with.  I will at the end, give the original, with original intended percentages.  FYI, for whatever you want to do, if you want to try this blend. 

As to the first blend, I've also expressed the morge in grams, so if you want to try this blend, it should now be clear (there are rounding errors - I'd just suggest thinking on percentages, not grams, etc.) 

Total of 7.13 grams - morge "1A" (lol....originally "Morge 1.")

Yeast: (14%)
DH (11.2%) (.8 grams)
Geo 15: 2.8% (.2 grams)

Arthrobacter (4.2%)
MGE: (4.2%) (.3 grams)

lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2.8%)
LBC-80 (2.8%) (.2 grams)

Linens (75%)
SR3: (21.5%) (1.53 grams)
FR13: (25.2%) (1.8 grams)
FR22: (28.1%) (2 grams)

Micro-Cocci: 7%
MVA (xylosum) (7%) (.5 grams)

Originally, I intended for more linens in the blend.  Original Morge, "Morge Blend 1":

Yeast: (10%)
DH (8%)
Geo 15: 2%

Arthrobacter (3%)
MGE: (3%)

lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2%)
LBC-80 (2%)

Linens (80%)
SR3: (15%)
FR13: (30%)
FR22: (35%)

Micro-Cocci: 5%
MVA (xylosum) (5%)

It's important to keep in mind, that ultimately, the precision of this blend is meaningless - so much will depend on your environmental conditions, encouraging some species, discouraging others.  But again, this mix was my best parsing after a considerable amount of talking with Pav, Francois, Sailor, and my own research of French and English-language sources.  And to reiterate - it's a Beaufort morge.  I want to play, and see what I get, using the same bio-environment across different alpine-style cheeses, basically reblochon, tomme, and gruyere styles.  And I think the tomme I'll get will be really nice.  But you can opt for a more mold-oriented tomme, or go whole hog, and just make a classic tomme de Savoie, a tomme grise - which is, as its name establishes, a tomme heavily weighted to gray mold, "poil de chat," "cat's fur," mucor strains.  Here, a French source:

QuoteAinsi, Mucor est responsable de l'accident dit « poil de chat » principalement en fromage à pâte molle, se caractérisant par un défaut d'aspect des fromages, et par l'apparition de mauvais goûts. De même, Geotrichum candidum peut devenir un agent d'altération (défaut de texture et de goût) en technologie pâte molle s'il est amené à trop se développer (accident de la « graisse » ou de la « peau de crapaud »).

Il est à noter que le regroupement des microorganismes en flore utile ou flore d'altération est à nuancer en fonction des technologies considérées. Par exemple, le Mucor est utile en Tomme de Savoie, mais nuisible en Camembert (accident du « poil de chat »).

The gist is that this stuff, the gray "cat's fur," is considered a certifiable flaw, in most soft cheeses.  However, in a [classic, let's call it, just for the sake of the current discussion] tomme de savoie, it's "useful."  I'd say, that's an understatement.  From what I've come to know, mucor is a necessary condition of the classic gray-rinded tomme of the Savoie - for which many makers of tomme outside the area actually ship their cheeses to the area; ship to the Savoie, specifically to achieve this effect.  To this gray, you'll see lots of variations - a blanket, smooth gray rind, suggesting a relatively simple set of flora; gray, with heavy red mottling, suggesting some linens involvement; and on and on.  Ultimately, as Pav, Sailor and Francois (I consider these guys my original, and existing, gurus) have said - no one, outside these areas, is making a cheese bearing the name of that area.  We play with existing conditions - milk, terroir - add in our desired, sensory qualities, which includes technique and native or added flora, to make a pleasurable and, if commercial, consistently sellable product.

As to the "1%" discussion on the starter, I'd highly recommend you look up Sailor's thread, incl. Pav's comments.  You could, of course, convert bulk equivalents back to direct inoculation of cultures - but there's nothing better than viable, working cultures of relatively known quantities, hitting your milk at running speed.  (The same thing is done in brewing - you work up yeast to a known density, and pitch the stuff - that's been rocking at 100% - into your fermentation vessel.  Almost no lag time, and you're ensured of some consistency, given a consistent, vital, viable culture).  Since employing Sailor's mother-culture approach, I've never looked back.  And as a commercial maker, I especially think it's an ingenious way of going about things.  Here it is, his thread (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5165.0.html). 

Thank you very much Arnaud for sharing all the detailed information of your hard work, the same goes for Yoav, Pav. and Boofer!

This is great.  Thanks to everyone...

A couple of questions/comments:

I have not heard before of adding LBC 80 to a morge.  What will it do on the rind that it is not doing in the cheese from adding it to the milk?

Do you add any of the morge to the milk or only for washing?  If not why not?  If you do, why?

I like the comment that exact quantities and ratios are meaningless in the longer term since they will settle into a blend determined by our own specific condititons - I think that is what we are all trying to achieve - unless you are a large commercial producer trying to meet retailer specs etc.

Lastly I have taken on board that the next best thing I can do for improving my cheese making is to move to bulk starter mother cultures from DVI.  Is this the general consensus?

Thanks again.  I am really enjoying this.

NVD

Quote from: NimbinValleyDairy on January 16, 2012, 11:26:02 PM

I have not heard before of adding LBC 80 to a morge.  What will it do on the rind that it is not doing in the cheese from adding it to the milk?

Do you add any of the morge to the milk or only for washing?  If not why not?  If you do, why?

NVD

My memory is poor, now, NVD - your experts are Sailor, Pav, Francois, on micro. stuff.  Unfortunately, though I researched a good deal, my mind is not wired this way - metaphors, aesthetic impressions...and if I can grasp science and research well enough, it takes work, and it's unfortunately the first to leave, if not constantly employed.  Enough excuses.  So:

My memory is that rhamnosus is simply among many found on the rind flora of gruyere types (French source that investigated the surface flora of Beaufort, sorry, can't recall the source).  I seem to recall that it is also pretty vigorous  in aminopeptidatic activity, that is to say - among many species - it is a rind component aiding in proteolysis, which among other things breaks down bitter peptide-termina, and contributes secondary, proteolyzed by-products that simply add aroma and flavor to your make.  As I recall, it's also got some bacteriocidal qualities, nice in raw milk.  I will try to go back through and see if I can recall the sources, or perhaps one of the experts will see this and make a better answer for you. 

As to my Beaufort makes, I did use them (the adjunct cultures) in the vat, but it's likely a waste....given the high cooking temps (some are more heat labile than others), a long maturation - 4-6 months and up - and the nature of gruyere, hard rind, low Aw, etc., agree with Pav - sorry, Pav, if I've remembered poorly - but these adjuncts are largely wasted in a high-cooked vat.  So, if I were doing this commercially, I'd probably use it in morge (rind wash) only, and then, only to establish a cave.  Eventually, one would hope your cave is simply stable as an incredibly diverse bio-environment.  But all that's discussed above, so won't bore with redundancy here.

I can only re-affirm how much I love the use of mother culture inoculation.  My thanks again to Sailor, and the others who contributed to his thread.

Edit:  Sorry, I believe this is the article (http://lait.dairy-journal.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/lait/pdf/2006/06/L0608.pdf) discussing rind flora in Gruyeres.  (Warning: PDF).  It's an interesting article, field studies on several plants, isolating the preponderance (and percentages) of L. casei and L. rhamnosus among gruyeres.  From Le Lait.  I relied on this, among many other sources, in deciding on at least some rhamnosus.

Thanks for that.

Just checking but I thought LBC 80 was paracasei, not rhamnosus.  But the logic of what you are saying is the same regardless.

That makes sense about the high temps affecting them.

NVD

NVD, LBC 80 is L. casei ssp. rhamnosus.  Here's one sheet (http://www.danlac.com/ingredient/lbc-80-lyo-10-d-aroma-developing-culture-cheese-and-shorter-maturation-time), FYI.

Glad to help, anytime; I hope whatever I've written is helpful.

Except for the next stretch.   ;D  Folks, it's been enjoyable to be back, as always.  Unfortunately my addictive proclivities mean I am finding it so easy to write here, and so difficult to keep my butt down at my escritoire (uh, chair, light, shot of a denuded walnut out front), which is an important thing for me, has been for awhile.  Very great affection for you all,

Paul

Thanks.

The confusing this is that LBC 81 and 82 seem to be both paracasei.  Phage variants I guess?

Also, could anyone explain the difference in results between Mycoderm and Mycodore?  Mycodore is a prohibited import into Australia for some reason...

NVD

No, the LBC 81 is variant of the LBC 80. The 82 is a different strain (and from some odd reason costs twice as much!) Interesting - I have never heard about it used for rinds either. Can anyone tell me about it? I use it in Tommes and Cantalet types only. I know it works differently than lactic starter but I don't know too much about it actually (yet). I am going to ask my microbiologist on duty (yes, I actually have one now!)

Do you want me to mail you some Mycodore? hehe... white powdery substance in international mail :)

Mycodore (trade name for Cylindrocarpon) and Mycoderm (trade name for Verticillium lecanii) are two entirely different species of fungi though they often coexist in rinds. They are both plant pathogens though Verticillium lecanii is better known to be pathogenic to incests (often used as pesticide).