What is the definition of madness ...? Doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different outcome. Cheese obsession.... Making the same thing over and over again hoping for a different outcome. Well after three .. yes THREE failed attempts, I'm at it again. Changing a couple of things on the recommendation of the Masters here and my supplier.
31st DEC 2011 Camembert #4
So Today I'm using Tim Smiths method, the recommended changes are
1. 1 dose MO 0030 and NO Flora Danica
2. Liquid rennet
3. 400 mls of cream to raise fat content.
4. 1 New batch P.Candidum and NO G.Candidum = Bought a new , different batch and turffed the original.
7.5 litres whole milk and 400 mls of cream. Roughly calc'd up the percent to 5 %
¼ tsp Calcium Chloride dissolved in ¼ cup de-chlorinated water
8 tablespoons of mother culture or ¼ teaspoon Mesophilic direct set culture.
(Variation 1 dose GLA MO 030)
1/8 tsp Penicillium Candidum - pre-hydrated over night
(1 P.Candidum – 1 (for 8 litres) P-'Drop' )
¼ tsp liquid rennet diluted in ¼ cup of distilled water.
Cheese salt.
(Variation going to brine in 18% solution for 6 hours then air drain/dry before placing in the maturation boxes).
I'll keep you posted as the day progresses...
Quote18% solution for 6 hours
This is going to give you an extremely salty cheese. Cams are 30-45 max mins per side when using 18%.
Thanks for warning. I'll adjust accordingly.
08:00 Milk warming to target temperature and added Calcium Chloride @ 16C
08:09 Milk warming @22C
08:23 Milk warming @31C
08:34 1 dose MO030 and P.Candidum Stir for 2 minutes remembering to top stir because of the added cream.
Interesting observance : immediately after adding the pre-hydrated P.Candidum and the culture what looked like fat globules appeared on the surface of the milk. They look a creamy yellow and seeing as I added extra cream I'm assuming this is Ok.
I think making cheese this way, live on the forum, is like having mentors all around and swimmimg with a life vest. Thanks, I'll post progress photos throughout the day.
-- Mal
The top of the milk is now very creamy and must remember to top stir when adding the rennet.
Here's some crossed fingers and toes for you Mal. I'm sure you'll crack it this time.
- Jeff
I admire your perseverance. Hope 4th time is the charm! :)
Thanks for all your best wishes. ;)
Added 1/4 teaspoon liquid vege rennet.
The Flocculation method will be used today and aiming for about 12 minutes and a multiplier of 5.5. Actually achieved @ 14 minutes.
10:19 Floc time of 14 minutes therefore by 5.5 = 77 minutes. Hence curd cutting will be @ 11:25. Maybe the extra cream has affected the Floc time. I can live with 14 minutes.
-- Mal
Curd cutting 1.5 cm and stirring for 15 and resting for 15 divided into 5 3minute intervals.
Let rest for a further 15 minutes.
Observation: The butter fat, the yellow globules, haven't combined with the curds so there are yellow specks floating in the whey. I'm thinking they should be there so again I'm not worried. They whey isn't separating as much as l thought, which I will suppose will mean a longer settling time and flipping times also needs to be longer and probably more of them until they are firm enough to take from the moulds.
12:02 Draining as much of the whey as possible and getting ready to place in the moulds.
Well... I'm back to too much curds. I filled my four standard 100mm moulds and still had way too much, so I even half filled my 160mm mould. So.. what is the consensus. persevere with them or reduce the risk of heart ache a ditch them now ?
Persevere of course!
We're just now eating my third batch of camembert, which is the first one approaching success. ;)
Now 40 minutes since hooping and the 100mm hoops have now about 25mm space in the top and I can still see whey coming out. This may turn into a serendipitous cheese or very runny mess. Looks like going to have to keep at it.
--Mal
Good luck on the new batch. Anytime I have added cream to cams the make has more curds and produce a denser cheese, like a cambozola. Have you always added cream to the recipes you have tried?
I hope you will keep us posted with pictures of your new group of cheeses. ;D
Bonnie
This is the first time I've added cream but I think there are benefits that I will need to investigate further. Yes the curd mass increase will need to be considered next time. But hay thats the beauty of what we do . . . .
New Years Eve spent at home making cheese. There really is a great feeling being able to create something from raw products. But today has not been one of total sucess but one of small failures and indeed a modicom of learning. Lessons learnt
1. adding cream will increase the curd mass.
2. recipes are made to be played with.
3. Make one change at a time, I made three today which might be my undoing.
So here are the final pics from today. I have been flipping the cheeses for the afternoon once every hour and they are starting to firm up, so after the next flip I'll let them drain completely overnight and brine in the morning.
If smell is anything to go by then these should work, well the small ones anyway the bigger one I'm doubtful.
I'll post photos as these mature. Fingers crossed.
I lft them drain overnight as they were still a bit squiggy. They now have a better form and feel about them. Just popped them in to brine for a couple of hours. THere is a dose of P.C in the brine as well. I get to this stage and think that they look wonderful. Lets hope the end story line is different this time.
-- Mal
Good Luck Mal, It is looking good so far!
Good on you Mal, glad to see you having another go! Its the best way to learn and having the advice from the forum is very helpful. Adding cream not only gives you more curd (all the fat and proteins turn to curd, so you retain a high percentage of the added weight), but also makes it drain slower. don't panic, just let them drain for your normal time (I usually drain for over 20 hours). I have found that the shape/form factor of my cams is critical to getting them to mature properly. Too high for the diameter, and the centre can take too long to soften. In a standard cam hoop, I aim for a 200g finished weight, which gives me a cheese about 25mm high. Undertanding my yield has helped me to guage the number of hoops required, and if I add cream I can adjust. My 8 litre batch of raw milk yields 1250g, or 6 cams. I also weigh them as I hoop to try to get each one the came. It is not an exact science as they are draining as I hoop, but I was able to get all my last cams all between 195g and 207g. Glad you cut your brine time back, I usually brine for 25 to 30 mins per side for a 200g cam.
Your photos look fine, nice curd forms, compact shape etc. Give them a good 24 hours to dry, then into the mat containers. I'm confident your new PC will make a big difference.
Keep us posted. :)
Hi Bob,
I havr only 4 cam moulds but as you state 8 litres with cream makes 6 so I have a large round but it is only now only 1 inch tall so I am using it only as an experiment. Not going to let them get the better of me. I'll post progress pics when they become available.
-- Mal
This cheese will be the death of me I'm sure .... no the buggers are sprouting blue and one of them almost overnight looks like a blue frisbee (a hand tossed Flying plastic disk for those who are scratching their head). Is there a way recover these cheesees of do I need to start planning batch #5. I inspect them every second day and clear the excess water (condensation) and always with clean hands and plastic gloves. SO any advise on knocking the blue off and anything else I need to do to make batch #5 being a sucess....
-- Mal
Mal, you must be cursed ;)
I have never had any blue moulds on my cams! I don't think you make any blues anyway, do you? I assume you have checked the packet of mould to make sure it was PC.......you would have seen the blue mould anyway I'm sure. good PC would normally out compete the blue anyway. I would think they will be hard to recover, as by now, the PC should be covering the cheese quite thoroughly. However, I'd try leaving them and see what develops....plenty of people here have had surprising success with mistakes!
Look for any source of blue mould you can.......blue cheese in the fridge, mouldy bread, container used for blue etc etc.
As a last resort, try buying some PC from Cheeselinks in Victoria. I use them all the time and have never had a problem with their moulds or starters.
Good luck and keep trying.
For your perseverance alone, you deserve a pick me up. Have a cheese, you've earned it! :)
Hi Mal,
Bummer. I've not made cams for about a year now, but I have made a couple semi-lactic PC ripened cheeses recently. From my recollections, blue will form if it gets too humid. So, if you're getting lots of condensation in the box, then open the lid a bit more and wipe it down every day if you can. Also, take heart, I belive cams were originally quite mottled with the snow white coating we've become used to being something that was developed in the late 1800s or early 1900s. You're just being more traditional, yah, that's it. A cheese for your determination!
- Jeff
Thanks for the encouragement..
I'm damned if I know where it came from so I'm assuming 'everywhere' . The big flat one Is going in the bin. The others I will try and dry out.. The PC on the is quite thick, I did buy a new batch, will, if I drop the humidity, the PC kill off the blue or would it be better to scrape the blue off and sterilise their containers an place them back in the 'Cave'. Maybe I should just make Blues :)
-- Mal
So far I've found that PC when happy will take over and hide the blue. You may just have a new variation of cambozola.
I agree, don't toss them, Mal! Personally, I'd just leave them alone, because I'd be afraid that trying to kill off the blue/scrape/whatever would interfere with the PC eventually. So just let 'em go, Cambozola is yummy! It is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that you'll end up with a bunch of cheese that you'll spend months or years TRYING to duplicate. :)
My first crack at Reblochon was a total bust (I thought), because they got infected almost right off the bat with blue, and I wasn't able to lightly press them properly, so there were a bazillion mechanical openings that the blue took as a field day. There was no way I could get all the blue out. So I washed them rather haphazardly, maybe once a week if I bothered to remember, and they sat untouched in the cave for the last couple of weeks till I got around to taking the container out to kill them. Turned out there WERE some bits that didn't have much blue, so I ate some. Oooooh - yummy! So I did some surgery on the worst of the blue and made some absolutely fabulous grilled cheese sammiches out of the rest.
Sometimes cheeses are like kids - mind of their own, like it or not :P.
What an amazing amount of encouragement. Alas, the big flat one had actually started to smell of something not cheese and met its demise. The other four are sitting in their washed houses. I didn't scrape them but I did dab the worst of the blue with salt the other day and already they have shown stages of dying down without spreading. I'll take some photos of them tonight when I inspect them an wipe the containers. Again thanks for the support. Just spent the morning at 'Witches Chase' Cheese factory http://www.witcheschasecheese.com.au/ (http://www.witcheschasecheese.com.au/) and bistro sampling their 2 year old bandaged Cheddar, Blue, Brie and Red Leicester whilst imbibing a Mount Tamborine Ale. All these made on the premises. It's amazing the feeling one gains when you get to appreciate the effort and care that goes into making these cheeses and ales, as well as our own. A morning spent 'recharging' my resolve...
-- Mal
I hope the next batch gets better!
I suspect you have over-salted them (I get enough salt with 120 min at 18% brine, or 90 at 24% brine for a 500g/1 lb wheel). Subsequently it seems only the salt-resistant stuff had grown and there was no geo to compete with it and deacidify the surface fast enough. I would strongly suggest to use geo or cheese yeast on your next batch. The mold spores causing the blue might have come from the wood you have used when the cheese was very fresh. It may also be a yeast contamination (happens a lot when you cook or bake at the same kitchen and also when there are pets around).
For the moulding - always mould in rotation and wait for the curd to go down. If it takes an hour to give you enough space to top it off - give it that hour. Eventually it will go down and you will get cheese at the exact size you designed it to be. Camembert hoops are best for this. Very little drains from the sides but rapid draining through the bottom forms them nicely and make them go down tightly and evenly fast.
Cream does change the P/F ratio, though too much cream can cause trouble; it slows down drainage and may give you cheese that is too rich in fat. Standarize your milk by roughly a factor of 10 to design the cheese. For the sake of argument, let's say your whole milk is 4.5% fat, so x10 = 45% fat brie (that's fat in dry matter, which means 22% of the total product). I don't know what % cream you have used but if your total milk had more then 7%-8% than you are in heavy triple cream land -and you should age it this way. It's a more delicate balance because you have more water trapped that's harder to get out, but you don't want to raise temperature because it will rancidify/oxidize the fat prematurely.
I didn't see your previous attempts. Why didn't you want to use Flora Danica? (Or MM100 - or equivalent). The MO 030 (which is like the Danisco Choozit MA11 thru MA19) does not provide any diacetyl-producing strain so you are kind of missing out on the buttery notes of the Camembert (and possible tiny random eyes and aromatic gas production) which is a shame. (Unless you were looking for this more sharp flavor, in which case ignore me)
Let's do another batch... I think we can make this next one work really well. By the way, can you give me the P number on your moulds? I want to see if it's the same ones I have here for sale. They come in about 100 different sizes and shapes... Where did you get them in Oz?
@ iratherfly. I was advised now to use 100% Flora Danica as it tended to over acidify. But maybe I should give it a go. My PC is from two separate batches but I'm unbale to provide the batch numbers but I'm assured that my latest batch was fresh. My supplier is Green Living Australia and is local so they are close and the cultures are alway frozen. I will print your notes out and study them with all the others... I'm not giving up. The remaining 4 are progressing well I think and the blue is controlled and the Cave is @ 12-14 C and are smelling good . . . at this stage.
Thanks all for your comments, advise and support . . I will master this cheese ...
-- Mal
Mal,
As a rule of thumb, 3-3.2 l of 3.5-3.7% raw milk, should make 2 Cam's.
As for salting, I recommend to try my way. Salt bathing is more suitable for hard cheeses.
Before molding, discard the whey to the top of curds and mix in 80 grams of table salt. Mix gently to disolve the salt but not to break the curds.
The pics are of a regular Cam and one aged with aple cider.
BTW, I never use commercial starters.
Quote from: OzzieCheese on January 21, 2012, 10:33:18 AM
@ iratherfly. I was advised now to use 100% Flora Danica as it tended to over acidify. But maybe I should give it a go. My PC is from two separate batches but I'm unbale to provide the batch numbers but I'm assured that my latest batch was fresh. My supplier is Green Living Australia and is local so they are close and the cultures are alway frozen. I will print your notes out and study them with all the others... I'm not giving up. The remaining 4 are progressing well I think and the blue is controlled and the Cave is @ 12-14 C and are smelling good . . . at this stage.
Thanks all for your comments, advise and support . . I will master this cheese ...
-- Mal
OzzieCheese, sorry for the late reply. Fl-Dn will NOT over-acidify a Camembert. Camembert is a very acidic cheese to begin with (long pre-rennet time and long fluc multiplier, then long draining of very wet curd). 1/8 tsp of Fl-Dn will acidify 4-8 liters of milk properly and in correct timing. I don't believe that the MO30 that you used is any less acidic than Fl-Dn, it's just less diverse and more flat on flavor. I believe that in Australia you can also get Probat 222 which is comparable with Fl-Dn.
How's the cheese looking now?
ALEX!!!! - it's been too long! So nice to see you here once in a while. I will be coming to your neck of the woods for the entire month of May by the way. If you have any requests - please email me! Say hi to the wife too!
I have tried your salting method a few years ago when I just made my first Camemberts. It confused me a bit, especially given that whey amounts were inconsistent from batch to batch so 80g didn't always work. I just do the classic french way nowadays: weigh the cheese, calculate about 1.8% of salt by weight, divide it in half and sprinkle each half on each side of the cheese with the hope that 1.5% will stick to it (remaining .3% of salt is what ends up on the table). If you always make the Camembert the same size/weight than you can just write down how much salt you need. (like 1 teaspoon) - makes life even easier. I did get a jewelry scale that measures up to 3kg but does it in 0.1g increments so it's easy to measure small batches and doses.
Thanks for the advise on my Flora Danica. Yesterday was day 4 and the beauties are getting fuzzy YEAH !
You can add salt straight to the vat, but it signifactly slows starters. If you are using powdered DVS I would not attempt this. I have done it in the past with bulk starter but the results are a bit hit and miss. It didn't work out in a commercial setting as sometimes you'd be waiting till midnight for the pH to hit 4.8 to de-hoop.