I have my 1st mold ripened chevre going right now but from reading various posts I think I am not doing things right.I fallowed recipe from Fias Co farms for St Maure.After draining it has you put the cheeses on a mat in a gallon zip-lock bag puffed up with air and sealed.It seems to be quite moist in there and I get the feeling that is not what I should be doing.
what I did so far: 2 qts raw goat milk(12 and 24 hrs old) brought to 72F,added 1/8 teas. MA 100,1/5 drop double strength rennet,and 1/8 teaspoon PC.Set in warm spot 24 hr.Gently ladled curds into 2 round chevre molds and 2 pyramid molds and drained on bamboo mat 48 hrs,on counter.Open(top) end of molds beginning to grow white fuzz.Unmolded cheeses and did the thing with gallon zip-lock bag.
Did not rub salt on surface.At this time about 36 hours later no mold showing on cheese surfaces.
Should I pull cheeses out of zip-lock,salt and leave on counter on mat lightly covered to facilitate mold growth?Other suggestions of what I should do next?ok that is all my questions for now.Thanks for any help.
Hi Littliest Goat
Your Sainte-Maure cheeses should not be in a sealed container (ziplock bag) as they are young and will be evaporating moistures from the sides and still draining whey out the bottom resulting in excessively high humidity which will with puddles of water could result in unwanted yeast infections.
Suggest you do as proposed, remove and dry salt all surfaces as per your recipe and put in a ripening container where you can control the humidity such that you get no condensation.
Also, for next batch frisbee the sushi mats which can easily harbour molds and yeasts to your next make and buy some food grade plastic ones.
Hope helps, pictures would help, there's a How To Attach in the FAQ Board, again welcome!
Hi Littlest Goat. The biggest problem I have had with this type of cheese its getting it to dry out sufficiently which then causes it to break down under the rind too quickly. So as John said leave it in a cool dry place for 48 hours or so until the surface dries out to touch, then is can go into a humid maturing area (room or plastic container etc.)
You need to salt them before the rind starts to grow.
Good luck.
NVD
oh yay!Thanks you guys.For the "cool dry" place ,what sort of temps?And for the humid maturing area what sort of temps and humidity?And I was reading somewhere on this forum a discussion about aging bloomy rind cheese on straw.At what point would a cheese be put on the straw?Also what stage would the stage I am at with these cheeses be called?i.e rind development ,aging?
I can only tell you what I do so maybe others might chip in with suggestions but:
Dry the cheese surface at 18-20oC. I live on the edge of a rainforest and this time of year humidity is about 100% ( we have had about 100mm/day for the past week!) so I have an air con room set at 20oC. For me I can not get the air too dry but from memory I think around 60%(??). If you search on here someone will have said something about it...
Straw? I would shy away from straw - potentially too many contaminants. Dry them on some sort of plastic matting that can be washed. Also raise the cheeses up so you get good air circulation.
So the cheese has been demoulded and now you are 'air drying' the surface before they go into the maturing room.
NVD.
I don't get the whole Ziploc bag thing. Dry the living daylight out of this thing as fast as you can. Mould should appear in the 4th or 5th day. If it's anywhere before that - that's too early and the cheese is either too warm or too moist (or both).
Salting must happen as soon as you get them out of the moulds. The salt doesn't just use the moisture to flavor the cheese by cycling into the paste of the cheese by way of osmosis, it also uses that osmosis process to hasten the expelling of the excess whey and moisture out of the cheese and creating the rind. Additionally, it protects the cheese from foreign contamination of most of the bad stuff we don't want here, which is often salt-sensitive.
Drying stage of 12-36 hours is needed (less if you pre-drained the curd in cheesecloth). Ideal is about 65°F/18°C and 85% RH, with light draft (like a small fan, but not blowing directly on the cheese). Turn the cheese 2-3 times during this period and every day until they are aged. Rub/tap/tighten them as needed when they begin to bloom. You don't want this premature thick rind. It needs to bloom late and be thin.
Straw is a wonderful medium to age this cheese. In fact many traditional and industrial makers in France do that. It gives color and aroma to the cheese. The straw also serves as a wick, helping with the removal of excess moisture from the cheese during aging. Over-used, treated, improperly clean or contaminated straw could be a headache, infecting your cheese with undesired rind developments of competing yeasts and fungi. (Though nothing your cheese won't survive, unless this is straw treated with chemicals). It is still better on straw than on plastic mats in any rate.
Do not use treated straw (like place mats, decorative straw fixtures or baskets, etc.) Use the stuff made for cheesemaking (Convince your local cheese shop to sell yo some) or stuff you pick up at a local farm. Buckwheat and rye make the best aging straws.
Any chance of getting a pic of this straw in use? I like the idea of it. I don't like the idea of trying to convince my 'safe food auditor' that it is ok!
I have terrible problems trying to dry out my cheeses so anything I can do to help will be great.
NVD
iratherfly-thanks for the detailed information.I got the cheeses out of the zip-lock and rubbed salt(kosher) on the all surfaces.Then let them dry for 48 hours at about 65F.I think my RH was lower and did not know to turn them.Then rubbed a little more salt and put them in a plastic container on a plastic mat on some bamboo skewers to raise the mat up a bit(just working with limited supplies here)and put in spot that is around 50F.Checked after 24 hours ,only bloom is on end that was up when cheeses were in molds.Conditions in plastic box are pretty dry.Am wondering if I should introduce a little moisture.My understanding is aging should be around 50-55F and 85-90% humidity.And are these conditions for after the bloom has occurred?
Yesterday,on goat forage walk,I picked some Great Basin Ryegrass(not related to cereal rye,but has good "straw")which was nice and clean and dry.I will put that in "aging" container today.
I will turn each day.
And one more question for now-- what is a bloomy rind chevre w/o ash named?
Thanks again,I will have more questions.
Sorry for replying so late. Haven't been on in a couple of weeks.
Littlest Goat - No problem! did the new regiment work out for you? Don't despair; the good thing about this is that eventually you just kind of learn to ballpark what 90% RH looks like. Small beads around the box cover is what you are looking for. Not big enough to drop on the cheese as water droplets. Just open or close the lid enough to respond to the condition of the cheese as you see it.
Bloomy chèvre without ash - there are many of those out there: Crottin, Chabichou, Pouligny-saint-pierre (this one comes in ash or no-ash versions), Caprino, Cabécou, Bûcheron, Sainte Maure (with or without ash), Coupole, Bijou, Cremont, Caña de Cabra, ... I can name about a million more
NimbinValleyDairy I believe I have posted these before. If you need to dry stuff more (I know you live in an extremely hot/humid area) than I suggest open air, straw and fans. See photo below this post.
Thanks iratherfly. Unfortunately my Safefood auditor would have a fit if he saw the straw. Fans and air-con seem to be working for me now. The other important thing I think is to have a 0.2 pH drop before renneting. This seemed to work a treat. Basically if there is too much water in there before draining it is bloody difficult to get it out - fans or straw or aircon not withstanding.
Thanks for the pics. They looked great.
NVD.
thanks to the advice from here I ended up with 4 yummy cheeses.Ate the last 2 at 24 and 26 days.They had a nice creamy pate and great flavor.I now have another batch going this time with ash I made from applewood.Once again ripen/aging on straw.
I have 2 more questions.If I bag drain instead of scooping curds directly into molds what is the forming procedure after all is drained?Hand forming?or then putting in molds?How much would that change texture?
And what are differences of rubbing salt on the the cheese after draining vs using a fully saturated brine?
8)i use to any blooming cheese-(P.CANDIDUM) metal netcurving at to make it have like small legs,as the cheese needs air circulation and when its touches the surface the blooming is disturbed. the net should be very delicate and turn the cheese every day for about 10 days till its blooming
"If I bag drain instead of scooping curds directly into molds what is the forming procedure after all is drained?Hand forming?or then putting in molds?How much would that change texture?"
You can either hand form or mould. What I do if I bag drain, is ladle the curds into the bag in slices, then ladle the drained curds into the mould, keeping to the original direction of slicing as much as possible. The same can be done for hand forming. This way, there's less curd break-up. I find that if I just scoop haphazardly from bag to mould then the resulting cheese is grainier than I like.
Quote from: Littlest Goat on February 13, 2012, 05:07:23 AM
thanks to the advice from here I ended up with 4 yummy cheeses.Ate the last 2 at 24 and 26 days.They had a nice creamy pate and great flavor.I now have another batch going this time with ash I made from applewood.Once again ripen/aging on straw.
I have 2 more questions.If I bag drain instead of scooping curds directly into molds what is the forming procedure after all is drained?Hand forming?or then putting in molds?How much would that change texture?
And what are differences of rubbing salt on the the cheese after draining vs using a fully saturated brine?
Awesome!
After drain, I usually empty the bowl of whey (or preserve it) and then unload the curd onto it in one piece. I then ladle the curd into the moulds, using a ladle that is the same size as the mould. There are a million ways to do this but this is my favorite because it keeps the curd attached and intact. The final texture of the cheese should break in fissures along those layers of curd. If you mid the curd, scoop it by hand or break it too much then your final aged cheese texture will be more dense fragile, crumbly. It will break and crash rather than tear and fissure.
Here is a Crottin I just opened last week. Notice the horizontal fissure lines on the curd? This is what you want. If you tamper too much with the curd you will lose that and have what I was describing above. In short, ladle it.
Hi iratherfly. Do you remove any whey before you ladle? Your crottin pics show the cheeses as being quite high so I am thinking you started with a hoop bigger than the standard crottin hoop. (I am assuming this is goat milk)
NVD
Crottin is always Goats milk. This is a very standard crottin fabrication and the classic Crottin mould. The final proportions of the puck are just as the Crottin you would buy in the store. (170g)
I don't remove any whey but to get this dense texture that flakes in layers (rather than crumble) and a thinner controllable rind, I dump the curd into a draining bag first (in one shot, very carefully. Can also be ladled into a cheesecloth-lined colander. You can also ladle it but use the biggest ladle you can find so that you minimize the cutting of the curd). Let it hang for a few hours to firm up. Obviously, topping the mould with this much-drier curd will give you a final cheese that is closer to the actual shape of the mould. Filling the mould with very wet curd/whey means a considerably smaller cheese.
Another alternative is to do the Italian style Crottin which is called Caprino. That's a different type of mould that is like a mesh or basket weave pattern. This will allow quick drainage and is really like having a mould and cheesecloth in one. It's easier.
Pre-draining is a good practice because it also prevents slip skin and early ammonia buildup, bitter flavors and out-of-control geo. These French Loire Valley style semi-lactics are expected to firm up, dry, eventually become hard enough to grate. If there is too much moisture -they will do the exact opposite and turn liquidy.
Other aspects of yield could be related to calcium, pasteurization method, acidification/renneting period.
Thanks for that.
Do you drain at say 24hrs or do you target a specific pH?
I was having trouble with slip skin with my lactics but have since modified the cultures and seems to have solved it. I doubt the cheese would age out beyond 10-14 days though. I add some TA to my mesophile starter.
Thanks iratherfly.
NVD.
You are welcome!
I wait to see about 2cm of whey on top of the curd and to see that the curd is either pulling away (shrinking) from the sides of the pot and/or to see some cracks on top of the curd. That happens when the pH is down to about the 4.5-4.7 range, no need to check with a meter (aside for keeping production log). That aside, I taste and smell the curd and judge it. I like it to be as tangy as Greek yogurt and in some cases this means very acidic (Sometimes as much as 4.3pH!). If the curd looks and feels at my target but the flavor is not there yet, I will let it ripen even longer.
I recently taught my brother in law how to make Chévre up in Ontario Canada. He could only get this ultra pasteurized crap of a goats milk. I pre-ripened it for a few hours before adding the rennet and even after adding rennet it took 24 more hours (instead of 12-18) to get a set curd, but the flavor was not there at all. I waited for the 48th hour for it to taste right and eventually we were able to get really great Chévre and Crottin out of it.
Traditionally, this cheese is a farmhouse cheese that is made in spare time, in between other tasks. The recipe is liberal and is adjusted to taste and seasonal temperature. Timing can be stretched anywhere from 12 to 48 hours and being a naturally extremely acidic cheese, it isn't crucial if you miss your pH target (unless of course you have a specific product that customers expect to be exactly the same every time around of course).
Drain thoroughly, reduce humidity, tap and turn the daily and don't wrap it - skin slippage issues will be resolved. You can also reduce geo activity by putting less of it, moving it earlier to the fridge or salting it a lot. That will help too. The cave aging should be between 10 to 20 days but continue the aging in the fridge - you want the texture to continue improving while the rind halts its growth (yet not die or recede). Once you master these you will keep doing them over and over because they are so easy and satisfying and you won't have much troubleshooting anymore. You should have it nearly perfected in just a few batches. If you intend on doing lots of them, I recommend you get the book 'The Fabrication of Farmstead Goat Cheese'.
Thanks for the help irather fly.
I solved the slip skin issue by adding some TA to the mix - 60%MA 40% TA - with the help of linuxboy. I have seen lactic curd logs with a thick geo rind with NO proteolysis under the rind so I am thinking they have been predrained and then put through an extruder of some kind. I will give this a go.
Previously when I let the curd ripen out for 24hrs I was draining at a pH of <4.5 but I was getting breakdown under the rind so I now drain at pH 4.9. The flavour is not as good but has a much better shelf life.
I ordered the book you suggested - Amazon's 'one click' shopping is too easy! I have a book arriving in the mail in 10 days and all that has happened is that I get a letter in the mail from my credit card company with some bigger numbers on it!! I haven't even used any money :)
The TA is a common stabilizing solution but you need to watch out for it. Too much and you will get this altered gummy texture. I use very little (either 1/32 tsp per 2 gal batch or switch from Flora Danica to MA4000 series + MD89. The MA4000 mix has TA culture in it and the MD89 makes up for it being a little less creamy/buttery than Flora Danica).
It's very effective preventing the cheese from breaking down into a runny ammonia, but the cheese still ages and ammoniates! It just ammoniates without turning liquidy, but it will turn dark, stinky and spicy inder the rind. The real fix for your issue is simply to dry the cheese further and in lower temperature so that the rind develops slower. Use TA to augment this and extend its shelf life. With TA it may take a few more days to age but it will last in it's perfect ripe condition longer. Just don't over-do it. (You can use a full dose in one batch just to see the difference).
Don't give up on the flavor! Let it go to the 4.5-4.7 pH range. It's much better. They take a little practice but once you'll get it right once -you will make good ones forever.