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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Other => Topic started by: mightyjesse on January 23, 2012, 08:51:33 PM

Title: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on January 23, 2012, 08:51:33 PM
QuoteBut the milk-tub, when it is filled with milk, ought not to be
without fome gentle warmth. Nevertheless, it muft not be brought
fo near as to touch the flames, as fome people are of opinion, but be
placed not far from the fire, and prefently after it is curdled, the liquor
muft be transferred into wicker-bafkets, cheefe-vats, or moulds; for
h is of great importance, that the whey be ftrained and feparated from
the condenfed fubftance as foon as poflible: for which reafon, the
country-people do not indeed fuffer the moifture to drop flowly from
it of its own accord; but, when the cheefe becomes a little more folid,
they put weights upon it, that thereby the whey may be fqueezed out r
then, as it is taken out of the moulds or frails, it is laid up in a dark
and cold place, upon the very cleaneft boards, that it may/ not be
fpoiled; and it is fprinkled with bruifed fait, that it may fweat out
the acid liquor: and when it is hardened, it is prefled more vehe-
mently, that it may be confpiflated; and it is fpiinkled again with
toafted fait, and condenfed again with weights. After this has been
done for nine days, it is warned throughly with fweet water, and
placed in fuch a manner under a {hade, upon hurdles made for that
purpofe, that one eheefe may not touch another, and that i.t may be
moderately dried. Then, that it may keep the tenderer, they put it
clofe together in feveral ftories, in a clofe place, not expofed to the
winds. Thus it neither becomes fpongy and full of holes, nor fait,
nor dry t the firft of which faults ufes to happen, if it be prefled but a,
little i the fecond, if it be feafoned with too much fait; and the third,
if it be fcorched in the fun. This kind of eheefe may be exported alfo
beyond fea. For that which is defigned to be eaten in a few days,
while it is new, is made up with lefs care : for, being taken out of the
wicker bafkets, it is put into fait and brine, and foon afterwards dried
a little in the fun.
De Re Rustica (Columella)

(Yeah... It hurts me to read it too... This is what happens when OCR software attempts to "read" the scan of a manuscript printed on a seventeenth century printing press. Sorry. Replace most of the "f" with "s" and a few of the "e" with "c" and so on, and you'll get through it...) Or you can skip that part and read my procedure:

QuoteColumella Process
•After curd formation transfer curd into baskets to remove whey. (Similar to brie/camembert draining process.) Once sufficient whey has been extracted to make the curd more solid, press under weight.
•Remove from molds and rub with salt. Let rest overnight.
•Press under more weight.
•Rub with more salt.
•Press under more weight.
•After 9 days, rinse thoroughly with warm water.
•Age.

He's missing datapoints on what kind of culture to use... But he's said that he doesn't like the cheese to be too sharp, so I used Flora Danica... I heated about a gallon of milk to 86 degrees and added my culture, then after letting it ripen for 30 minutes or so I added the rennet. After 45 minutes, I cut the curd, waited 15 minutes for things to firm up and then scooped it into some camembert molds on a reed mat to drain...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x214/Mighty-Jesse/IMG_20120122_164804.jpg)
I flipped the curds every 30 minutes or so for 2-3 hours before consolidating them to just one mold and adding a follower and a can of tomato sauce as  pressing weight...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x214/Mighty-Jesse/IMG_20120122_182202.jpg)
Then, after leaving it set overnight, I salted it on all sides and left it out on a matt to air dry while I'm at work, before returning it to the press again...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x214/Mighty-Jesse/IMG_20120122_235101.jpg)
Apparently I'm supposed to keep up this salting and pressing business for 9 days... Probably because there is no cheese cloth involved to help wick the moisture out of the curd... Hopefully I'll remember to keep you posted as this little experiment progresses...
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: dthelmers on January 23, 2012, 09:51:32 PM
Mightyjesse,
I think that the comment about not getting it too hot, but keeping it near the fire argues for a mesophilic culture, too. Good choice with the Flora Danica, in my opinion. Also the moderate weight you are using seems reasonable since he mentions wicker baskets. I'm curious to see what the acidification is like with that long pressing. I'm attaching another translation of Columella that parses English a bit better.
I'm glad you're trying this! I think I'm going to try some old recipes myself, like Digby's scalded cheese.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on January 24, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
During the drying phase, outside the mold, the cheese literally went pear shaped... The sides bowed out, and sagged a bit, but since it shrank up some due to the salt, I was still able to get it back into the mold and into the press today. I went with about a half gallon of water as my weight. I'll salt and let it dry again this evening when I get home from work.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on January 25, 2012, 02:34:15 PM
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x214/Mighty-Jesse/IMG_20120124_180455.jpg)
Yesterday after pressing, there were several teaspoons of whey in the tray. I salted and left it out to dry again over night, and again, after salting there was more whey in the drip pan. Cheese is noticeably shorter than yesterday, but still not dry on the surface.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: smilingcalico on January 25, 2012, 04:46:32 PM
If I recall, doesn't he use vinegar and honey at some point?  Will you be doing that too?
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on January 25, 2012, 05:02:45 PM
The vinegar and honey go into a different recipe by a medieval Italian doctor published some 1400 years later: Compendio de i secreti rationali di M. Leonardo Fiorvanti Bolognese, Medico & Cirugico.  (The Compendium of rational secrets of M. Leonardo Fiorvanti of Bologna, Medic and Surgeon)... Thus far, I've not managed to get that recipe to work for me... I can't even figure out if it's supposed to be a lactic cheese or a rennetted one, and neither can the curd...

My inner geek, however, is thrilled that you remember this...
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: JeffHamm on January 25, 2012, 08:11:41 PM
I'm enjoying this.

Hmmm, as to the culture mix, given that this is a raw milk cheese, wouldn't it be appropriate to toss in some thermophilic as well, but the make proceeds at meso temperatures.  The thermo's may come into play during the aging phase? 

Also, having read the translation Dave included, he talks of shackling the she-goat, so it seems this is describing a goat's milk cheese.  Perhaps a touch of lipase would not be out of line either? 

Anyway, I'm really just thinking out loud here.  Really looking forward to hearing how this turns out for you.  A cheese for your efforts.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on January 25, 2012, 08:31:15 PM
The translation I was working with said "cattle" and not "goats." In the original latin, the word used was "pecus," for which most translation software searches will return "cattle" and sometimes "in particular a sheep." "Pecorrino," cheese might be related to this somehow, you think? Lipase wouldn't be out of the question regardless of what kind of milk is used, if the standard italian rennet paste recipe was being used here. However if this were a veggi rennet (as he suggests might be tasty) I'm guessing that there would be very little lipase in the mix at all.... I'm still trying to get my hands on some fig tree sap to try...
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: fied on January 25, 2012, 08:39:12 PM
The primary meaning of "pecus" is "cattle," but it can also be translated as "sheep." Confusing for a modern cheesemaker, eh?
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on January 25, 2012, 08:49:53 PM
I didn't find it as confusing as I found it frustrating. I cannot get sheep's milk here, so I work with what I can get. I need to do a bit more research on the primary type of cattle raised in the area Columella was describing at the time he described it. Different types of cattle went into and out of fashion in the passing of centuries, and so did the flavors of cheese. I'm mostly interested in technique and technology right now because I can make a wicker basket to replicate the Roman or Italian technology I'm trying to mimic. I can eliminate the use of cheese cloth to see what effect that has on the final product... I can not so much start breeding sheep within city limits so as to have the right kind of milk.

>_<

Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: JeffHamm on January 25, 2012, 09:55:36 PM
Ahhh, the fun of translations! 

I have this snippet of a memory that seems to be telling me that fig sap as a coagulant will produce a fine soft cheese, but not a hard pressed cheese.  It might be from one of Linuxboy's posts.  Will search for figs.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on January 25, 2012, 09:57:17 PM
I'm under the impression that it will do better as a younger cheese, but as a longer aged cheese, the product might become bitter.... At least that's what I remember reading.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: JeffHamm on January 25, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
Hi mightyjesse,

Yes, my memory was a bit off (it was, after all, only a snippet of a memory! ;) ).  I found the, or at least a, thread on making rennet from figs.  And it was Lynuxboy who suggested fresh, non-aged cheeses are fine.


https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5157.msg38557.html#msg38557 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5157.msg38557.html#msg38557)
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: fied on January 25, 2012, 10:05:33 PM
I don't know if Columella was farming in Spain, where he was born, or Italy. I've also a dim memory that the European ancients didn't differentiate between sheep and goats much, though my memory could be at fault here.

On Roman baskets, rather than clay moulds, cheese made in baskets without cheesecloth is still made in Italy today. I occasionally make it myself.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on January 25, 2012, 10:15:52 PM
Columella and Pliny were both fairly well travelled and made some comment on cheeses made in England and across various parts of the continent. (I think the l. helveticus culture gets it's name from the people that were first making cheese with it... The Helveticans... Who were mentioned by Pliny.) I just need to do more reading into which cheeses which descriptions relate to. Sometimes I'm too eager to make cheese and not eager enough to brush up on my Latin...
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: fied on January 26, 2012, 10:35:49 AM
Here is some info. on vegetable coagulants:

http://www.artisancheesemakingathome.com/creatingcheese-morecheeses.html (http://www.artisancheesemakingathome.com/creatingcheese-morecheeses.html)
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on January 26, 2012, 02:58:14 PM
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x214/Mighty-Jesse/IMG_20120126_073846.jpg)

Yet more whey expressed both in the press yesterday and during the drying phase over night. A couple of tsp, each phase. Cheese was finally dry to the touch this morning and starting to feel like a real cheese instead of wibbley curd. It's back in the press again under 8 lbs.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: Crystal on February 16, 2012, 05:39:23 AM
Can i just jump in here and clarify one point?? Thanks!! lol

the word 'Cattle' origionally was used to describe any livestock that was kept for human purposes such as milk, meat, skins etc... ANY herd of animals was cattle, so, your dude could be describing either cows, sheep, goats, or even alpaccas (?sp).

Romans rarely had access to cows milk, as they didnt drink milk, and would generally have used fig sap as 'rennet' because they didnt often eat the animals they kept either, so animal rennet was rarely used.

Sorry, i have been independently researching the very subject of Ancient Roman food for weeks now! Fancy coming accross this post eh?
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: Crystal on February 16, 2012, 05:45:24 AM
This is a very cool experiment, cant wait to see how it goes. I do have an endless supply of fig sap, i just climbed out of the fig tree actually, so i will be trying a cheese with it this week, oh, its thursday already, ok next week! I will check back here often to see how your going.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: linuxboy on February 16, 2012, 05:55:51 AM
Quoteand would generally have used fig sap as 'rennet' because they didnt often eat the animals they kept either, so animal rennet was rarely used.
Curious what primary sources you're using :). IMHO, depends where you were. In the country side, in established villas, raising and eating sheep and goats was very common (based on archeological studies). Rennet paste making traditions go back to many years before Christ. Fig was more useful as a quick substitute I think. More for remote areas or in mobile situations.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: Crystal on February 16, 2012, 06:38:10 AM
Of course, LB, its geographically and socially specific. Wealthier romans ate plenty of meat, my research was on mainly lower classes. And it could always be wrong, my latin is brilliant and im only reading what others have wrote... Until i get to Italy and start doing my own archeological research it'll have to do i guess.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: linuxboy on February 16, 2012, 06:55:12 AM
I think it's pretty true, IMHO. For example, the old farmstead predecessor to the pecorinos is cacio fiore, often coagulated with fig or cardoon.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: Corina on February 16, 2012, 07:02:01 AM
How interesting what you are doing.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: fied on February 16, 2012, 12:55:31 PM
"the word 'Cattle' origionally was used to describe any livestock that was kept for human purposes such as milk, meat, skins etc."

That's true, which is why we don't know what Columella was referring to. It might help to know where he was farming, Italy or Spain, and the region, because that could help pinpoint exactly what his "cattle" were. The other difficulty is that ancient sheep and goats were often not as clearly differentiated as they are now. Breeding schedules have had 2000 years to develop and change the animals since then.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on February 17, 2012, 01:30:16 AM
Columella was born in southern Spain and was in Syria for most of his military career... I haven't yet worked out where he was farming... Jews used the fig rennet to make kosher cheese, while many other religions didn't care... Also, I'm betting (based on the number of deaths during lambing season my friends witness for one flock) that even if they weren't eating a lot of lamb, they still had access to plenty of rennet supply even if they weren't intentionally slaughtering unweaned cattle for food.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: Corina on February 17, 2012, 08:03:11 AM
In  the Republican times, when the roman economy was restricted to the present italian teritory, before the great conquerings, the cattle grown by romans- usage preluated from the greecs that where in the south of Italy- where small ones, for the reason that there where easy to grow, without fuss and where used for meat also.
Even in the writings of those times, refering to the ratio of soldiers, the meat used was that of small animals.
From this point a Roman cheese that was made by the small agriculturer can only be made of goat or sheep milk.
More than that, even in the wars for conquering Italy it was mentioned that the samniti people where sheperders growing sheep and goats.
Cows where used mostly as working force.

It has to be studied the exact data when the figs where brought on Mediteranean shores, from Asia.
However, it must be taken in account that roman agriculture has developed once there was acces to the agricultural treaties with Cartagina, for Cartagina was the colony of Tyr, that was on the shores of Asia Minor, -the native place of figs- and that in the north of Africa the PUNS grew sheep and goats, and it is only logical that roman cheese using fig sap as coagulant to be made of sheep or goat milk, not cow.
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: fied on February 18, 2012, 05:26:45 PM
"I haven't yet worked out where he was farming."

Often veterans were given a piece of farm land when they retired, or they returned to their ancestral holdings. The "De Natura" type writings were more likely to be written on retiring, is my guess. I'd also guess that Columella returned to Spain, or, perhaps, Italy, and then farmed. The infuriating thing is that we just don't know!
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: JeffHamm on April 27, 2012, 07:05:38 AM
Any news on this one?  How did it turn out?  Have you eaten it yet? 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: mightyjesse on April 27, 2012, 12:57:43 PM
Yes. That one was smoked and et, being as I identified some problems in the make. It was incredibly salty.... I have made it again, this time including lipase and increasing batch size to three gallons so as to increase the ratio of paste to surface area - therefore reducing salted area to paste ratio. Also being as he indicates that this cheese is to be shipped, I believe it is a grana style cheese and meant to be aged at least 6 months... if not a year...

ed - spelling and clarification
Title: Re: Roman Era Cheese:
Post by: JeffHamm on April 27, 2012, 05:28:20 PM
Thanks!  A cheese for your adventures.

- Jeff