I spent the morning facillating between will I or won't I get them another go. And it was my wife that made the difference - TYhey have to work eventually. After the wonderful help received for my abortive attempt #4 they didn't ripen.
Today...
Only using Flora Danica.
Not going to brine, going to add 80 grams salt to the whey just before hooping.
Going to leave overnight to drain more before putting into the ripening boxes and finally keeping the moisture under contol better (I hope). I'll be using Tim smiths recipe and method apart from the changes above. I have a couple of hours before the hooping process so please jump in any time . . . :)
8 litres of milk (3.4% fat)
¼ teaspoon CaCl2 diluted in ¼ cup Chlorinated water.
1 good dose of GLA's Flora Danica.
1 dose of just P.Candidum.
¼ teaspoon liquid rennet diluted in ¼ cup Chlorinated water.
80 grams of salt – added as above.
Added milk and started getting it to 32C.
09:00 added CaCl2 @ 20C.
Everything is sterilized and ready to go.
Ozzie, looks we are both making Camemberts and recording our worklog at the same time, albeit I'm starting on a very rainy (flash floods warning) night in Houston and you in an Australian morning, my worklog here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9165.0.html). GLTA!
Hi John. It's a balmy 26 degrees in Brisbane and sunny. I'll post some pictures when I get to the interesting stage :)
9:30 32 DegC and added the Flora Danica and P.Candidum. Ripen for 90 minutes.
The ripening milk will need to be stirred again due to the freeze dried direct set not quite dissolving.
The Flocculation method will be used today and aiming for about 12 minutes and a multiplier of 5.5. Last time I actually achieved 14 minutes so the ¼ teaspoon and a bit should be fine today.
John CH and I are doing these at the same time but 1/2 a world apart.. that's so cool. I decided to follow his lead and introduce some G.Candidum as well so I added with still 45 minutes of ripening to go.
11:05 Add rennet. Not happy ... 20:15 floc time therefore 5X multiplier gives 1hour:40 minutes setting time. I think I need another batch of rennet as the last batch was 14 minutes with the same rennet and same measure. Oh well this is the pth one must take for a hobby.
Curd cutting time @ 12:45.
Mal, with your new rennet, on the next make, just up the dosage rate to account for it's different strength (assuming same milk, rennet also sets easier with lower pH milk, ie more pre-ripening). Looks like I'm a couple hours on my make ahead of you as I've just made my first turn in the hoops!
I didn't want to cut the curd too early. But yes the Floc time was a bit too long. But the curds are still looking good. (i'll post pictures when I get to the hooping and flipping stage.
Cut the curd at 12:45 and stirred lightly for 15 minutes. The last 2-3 minutes of stirring I slowly added the salt and stirred gently to distribute it amongst the curds. I only used about 50 grams as I was a bit wary of over salting this batch.
Let rest for 15 minutes and then hooping.
Mal,
I've got fingers, toes, arms, legs, etc., crossed for a good outcome ;D. Good luck and looking forward to pictures. Fifth-times the charm right?
Bonnie
Gotta keep trying, thanks for the encorragement. The photos are from the start
1. The curd as finished stirring
2. The moulds ready and waiting
3. filling the moulds
4. Finally full with not much left in the pot.
5. My curd cut pattern.
6. After 20 minutes.
7. First Flip
8. Last flip
I left the 4 of them drain further overnight and in the end they ended up 40 mm high and weighing in at between 318 and 336 gms.
Quite honestly they all have got to this stage with the same results nice firm slightly moist. But then something evil happens or doesn't happen as the case may be.
So, PLEASE, PLEASE dont abandon me. Well ok thats a bit melodramatic. Any advise on what to do after this stage will be very much appreciated.
-- Mal
Best luck this round! :)
Pictures look great, your cut curds look more cooked and looks like you drained curds of whey before spooning into your molds, thus your formed cams have less gaps down sides than mine.
On your salting, I think adding dry salt to the curds and whey results in less of a controlled amount of salt per cheese than brining or direct dry salting each end of the formed cheeses like I'm doing (my method isn't perfect as no salt on sides).
For next blooming phase, I think it's very important to have moisture content right from air drying at room temperature before going into cheese cave, yours look good, no slumping. So for blooming it's all about humidity and temperature control and patting down the mold to minimize skin thickness. This time I'm going to pat down straight away as the rind on my batch #9 is too thick and looks like a skin.
Funny, I made cams on Friday, too. Batch #16. :) Added geo to the mix for the first time, see if I like the resulting rind better (they always taste okay, but a little overly chewy, even though I pat 'em down all the time when ripening).
Here's to three successful makes in one day!
Hi John,
I've tried all three methods of salting and Brining and direct salt have not produced anything eatable. Not that I'm blame the salting ... My 'cave' is a constant 12 degrees and I don't have a hygrometer it's all a bit 'suck and see' on that front. The only indicator is the moisture in the containers. I'm going to wipe them out daily and hopefully the Camebert Gods will smile this time..
-- Mal
I was thinking along those lines... Maybe your praying to the wrong diety? ;)
Hi there, just out of curiosity, why are you using chlorinated water to dillute your rennet? That may be a factor in your coag time. Just an opinion, otherwise your cheese looks great. Best of luck.
Sorry that was a typo... :-[ I always UN-Chlorinated water opps !
Well it is now the 2 weeks and the camemberts are well and truely covered in with stuff P or C I'm not really sure but they look good I (well my wife really) am however a little disturbed by the smell is it a very pervading pungent smell. not overly unpleasant but still very noticiable. And it's about this stage or very close to it I tend to lose a bit of faith in the process and start wondering whether to chuck them out. Any suggestions at this stage ?
-- Mal
I'm wrapping these today as they are well covered. Also I'm hoping by posting them someone can please tell me that they are still ok. Please are they still ok ?
I've washed the boxes out and wrapped them all and placed them back in the box for another 4-6-8 weeks. Any suggestions on how long ?
Hi Ozzie,
I'm still a newbie myself, but it looks like geo stole the show. When I see that I think the cheese was too moist for PC to develop well. I would guess that these cheeses will become ammoniated if they aren't already. I think you might want to eat them sooner, rather than later. Another problem I've run into. If the cheeses are too moist, wrapping them magnifies the problem. I would finish aging them in their ripening box where you can see and control the humidity better. 2 weeks further aging should be all that's needed, but the time needed varies depending on the temp your aging at. When my cave is warm, my camemberts ripen by 3 1/2 weeks total.
Hi Mal,
Your cheeses look good. How do they feel when you press on them - still pretty firm? How about slip skin? I imagine if they are still pretty firm, another 2 weeks should do it for them. I have kind of stopped wrapping my cams and keep them in the box in the fridge so I can keep a better eye on their development. The smell you mentioned - ammonia or just a strong earthy smell? Both are normal, but a very strong ammonia smell can be a sign it is aging too rapidly.
Good luck on these and keep us informed.
Bonnie
How does one determine the mould if they are both white ? My "Cave" is a constant 12 Degrees C but I have no way of determining the humidity. I just wipe the boxes out daily. The cheese themselves were dry to touch, firmish to squeeze and earthly and a bit pongy to smell but that dissappated after a short while. What the concensus keep or chuck ?
-- Mal
Cut one open and try it! If it looks and tastes good let the rest age longer. If you have to chase it around the room with your knife... well I'd let that one get away! ;)
Yes - please cut one open and taste it! I never throw away a cheese unless it is absolutely too scary to touch, and your cheeses have a long way to go before that! ;D I'm hoping you will find a firm paste that is not quite ready to serve yet, but definitely tastes good enough to keep going.
I have noticed with my aging cams that they go through a period where they can smell rather funky, but I think it is just a point in aging. They then settle down and smell somewhat earthy, but I air the box out daily and they do fine.
Let us know the verdict on the early tasting :D.
Bonnie
I would agree it looks like more Geo development to me with the "wormy" appearance to the skin. I agree, try one and see, I made the mistake of letting my first good batch of Cams age too long and they were definitely overripe. The PenC coated cheeses I have going on now, I'm going to start trying sooner.
Mal, I like all the posts above but also especially anut's that it looks too moist before you wrapped, also I've had less slip skin if I don't let the mold get that big and pat it down as soon as it appears.
I'm having better results without wrapping like commercial Cam's because as anut says, I can better control my humidity. Older batches that I used wraps for ended up as soggy messes, especially my Batch #7 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1314.0.html).
Lastly, for future makes if you still want to wrap, I took some pictures on how commercial ones were wrapped here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1434.0.html), and some pictures of me trying to imitate here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1074.0.html) before I stopped using them.
G'day Mal, been busy lately and haven't visited the forum much, but had a look today and pleased to see your cams developing. Much better results that previously, well done.
For what they are worth, here are my comments:
Your rind looks interesting! I too use a PC/Geo mix, but I find the PC quickly takes over. If anything, I end up with a too thick layer of mould, see my attached photo of my latest cams.
I always brine my cams, I find it the simplest way to get even salting.
I wrap mine at 10-11 days. By then the mould growth is even and fully covers all faces. I think 2 weeks is a bit too long before wrapping. I have never had a problem wrapping my cams. In fact, I think it helps to control the maturation better.
I think you should get them into the normal refrigerator ASAP. They look to be well developed already, and will ripen very quickly in the higher temp cave.
I think they are getting close to a slip skin situation. The puckered upper and lower edges are typical of the beginning of slip skin in my experience. You will find the paste will get very runny just under the skin, starting on these corners. John's latest photos demonstrate what I mean. Again, getting them into the main fridge will help slow this down. Luckily, I dont see any browning on the rind yet, so it is still OK. When I see browning, that is a sign of ammoniation and too rapid development (or cheese that is past its best).
In my experience, slip skin is caused by a combination of too high a moisture in the cheese (needed more draining) and high maturation temps. I have found a bit of agitation of the curd before hooping helps to release whey and I get a better drained curd in the hoop.
Overall though, you have really made some great progress! I have had to keep repeating the make and fine tuning to get on top of these tricky cheeses. Each time you make you learn, and the advice from this site, although sometimes conflicting, is invaluable. I'd cut one ASAP and let us see the results. No good leaving them until they are over the hill!
HI Bob,
Well I think these are dead as well but learning all the time. I cut one open the smell was a little strong but the smell was quickly dissapated. The ooze was immediate and most of the cheese paste was still firm but oozy. The oozy bit was a bit sharp and the paste to was a little sharp, not unpleasant but not something you could eat alot off, at the moment. I have wiped the container and aired it for a couple of minutes and have now placed them in the fridge at 4 degrees (under pain of thowing out I hope the smell is arrested by the dropping of the temperature.
Here are the photos for you opinion.
Keep - or - Chuck
:( Well Mal, you're right, these won't get any better from here. The damage is done and the ammoniation has set in. I had a batch like this too and the sharp, bitter ammonia taste went through the whole cheese. I even used it to make a pasta sauce...revolting! Looks like far too much moisture at hooping and not enough draining time. Then keeping too long at the higher temps. The surface moulds have ripened far too fast and turned the cheese into liquid before the centre has had time to ripen.
But as you say, a learning process and you have moved forward a long way. I hope you have the fortitude to try number 6! :)
The paper held in to much moisture.
Mal, have you ever considered just using a different recipe? This one REALLY doesn't seem to be working for you. ???
Well, shucks. I was hoping for better results. One thing I did notice in your pictures were your cam's are a bit too thick. It is harder to get thick cam's to age evenly. I think George has a good suggestion to try a different recipe :-\. I have used Margaret Morris' recipe from Glengarry Cheesemaking for years. But, I think it is going to be tweaking the amount of curd you put into the moulds and cutting back on the Geo a bit as well.
But, hang in there. All of us have "been there, done that" with cheesemaking. Perseverance is the key if you want to nail this one and so far you get an A+++ for that ;D. We all have our "white whales" though - mine being mozzarella. Some day.......
Good luck with batch number 7.
Bonnie
Oops. Sorry. Here's to batch #6 :-[.
Bonnie
I've used three recipes. one from the person who taught me, the one in Ricki Carrolls book and the one in Tim Smiths book. With the same results or there about, smelly round hockey pucks that don't ripen. So if any one has a recipe from start to finish I can follow that would be appreciated.
-- Mal
Any one of them should have worked I think you need to give them more air. To much moisture will kill them.
Ok, then more air it is. As well as more draining with a little hand massage, not as high (going for 6 out of 8 litres) and salt the outside. I only have an under bench "40 bottle Cave" so it looks like my Caerphilly and Manchago are going to have to share with next weeks camembert #6 and I going to trust my wifes nose and the first sign of a feety smell they will be moved into the normal 4 Degree C Fridge for the remainder of the ripening. I wonder what a PC covered Caephilly will taste like or a fuzzy manchage :P
Look for the posts next week and I'll see where #6 gets to. Thanks to all for your input and encouragement.
-- Mal
And don't wrap 'em till they're mostly ripened and ready to eat. I think those early wraps are killing them too, both from air and moisture perspective.
I let my Gorgonzola, in it's mold, drain overnight in the oven with the light on, only to discover the temperature had gone up to 85 degrees. This caused my cheese , which was not in a container, to drain too well and it ended up being drier than a blue should be. Perhaps this might work you? Drain at a warmer temp.
Somebody respond to this as I may be in the left field. Couldn't you put your cheese in the refrigerator for few days, after the initial draining, to slow down Geo and PC so the cheese has more time to lose moisture before the Geo and PC get going? It would drain slower, but the fridge tends to dry things out so I can't think why this would be a problem?
My concern with drying in the regular fridge would be that the outside would dry quickly, but leave a moist interior, which would then cause the cheese to crack.
Sorry to see you're having such a hard time with these cam's Mal. I've not made cam very often, and not for over a year, so I don't yet have any personal insights. Still, from what others are saying, I think the key is at the point you hoop them. The curds are remaining too moist and not draining properly. Perhaps try cutting your curds a bit smaller and stirr just a bit more vigorously to help expell more whey. Then, when hooping, try scooping the curds into a cheese cloth collander (one scoop), let the whey drain, then move that scoop to the hoop rather than directly ladel into the hoops. Might be worth a try anyway?
I know you'll crack this though.
- Jeff
My wife says I'm a stubborn bugger. So I'm not giving up.
--Mal
HI,
From what i can see the geo has really taken hold but no p candidum growth. Once you had the growth be it geo or P candidum you need to bring temperature down to 5deg otherwise you will just get a runny mess. I think the curds are plenty dry enough in the moulding stage with you infact i would prefer them to be more moist. If they are moister in the curd then they ripen easier but has to be done slowly . dont hink you are far off . Not sure abou tthe salt in the whey mind !! that will slow the starter down and flora danica is a slow starter anyway !
Quote from: OzzieCheese on March 19, 2012, 09:04:24 AM
My wife says I'm a stubborn bugger. So I'm not giving up.
--Mal
Good man never give up! It can only get better each cheese is a learning experience!