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Our standard kitchen set of saucepans-pots max's out with a 1 US gallon sized stockpot, good for 1 US gallon size jug of milk resulting in ~18 oz/0.5 kg hard cheese. While I do have a 3 gallon stockpot it is aluminum which is not recommended for milk products.

To make bigger home batches of cheese I need bigger and preferably double boiler stockpots, thus I ordered from Amazon USA this set (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CEOJ1K) for USD30 including tax and free thus slow shipping.

Box arrived 6 days later and as expected they are thin with bottoms the same thickness as walls. But to act as nested double boilers for warming milk they are perfect and they stack down small with next size smaller lids going inside bottom of previous pot, except largest lid of course. When used as double boiler, the clearance is about 1 in/2 cm on bottom and 1/2 in/1 cm on each side. Only negative is labels don't peel off well.

Box said Made In India and that useful for several types of cooking but they forgot making cheese! Maybe they don't make cheese in India? Great value for USD30!

UPDATE #1 @ Dec 2008 = Stockpot description says largest is 20 US quarts, but only fits 4 US gallons, 16 quarts and totally full to brim. Not happy.

UPDATE #2 @ Jan 2009 = Largest stockpot now leaks from handle rivet holes (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,893.0.html) on both sides, making the advertised 20 US quarts only good for 14 quarts, 3.5 US gallons. Not happy at all, Like salmac's post below, buy cheap, get cheap.

Cheese making pots.  A 12-quart pot which fits inside the enameled pot as a double boiler.  The stainless pot just happens to rest perfectly on its handles about two inches above the bottom of the enameled pot.

The 50 quart stainless pot I use for batches calling for four gallons or more of milk.  I picked it up at a restaurant auction with the intention of making beer...I never have.  No double boiler here...I don't want another huge pot to deal with, this is already too difficult to clean,  It is heavy, and has a nice, thick bottom so it holds heat well and scorching has not been an problem.
(http://nexterra.org/gallery/d/4943-1/Cheese+002.JPG)

I got these stockpots off ebay in the UK. I think theyre the same as yours CheeseHead

You got the better deal I paid STG 29.99 but that was a fraction of all other alternatives. comes in the 5 sizes 20l, 17l, 15l, 13l, 11l

Next stop BIG cheese!

With the double boiler method which size combinations work best? Nest the next size down or two down?

Mine work fine with next size down, I think it is only 1/2 "/1 cm between them so less water. That said I am lazy and have only used the double boiler once, rest of time I just use single and warm milk very slowly on gas ring and stir so minimize hot spots and don't burn/re-pasteurize. The only problem with them is that they are not teh size advertised on website or on box, largest was basically one size down, so biggest batch I can make is 3 US gallons.

Have fun!

I prefer to use a double saucepan water jacket as I find I have better control of the cheese temps.  I also find that it gives a better all over heating of the curd, and that way I don't have to keep stiring to bring up the hot curd form underneath, and that way I don't over work the curd.
Maybe it's just me, but that's my preference.

A couple of Q's well <cough> apparently quite a few :-)

Did you notice any difference using the double boiler? I'm assuming not if you dont use it anymore.

3 gallons is 11 litres right? What kind of size cheese does that make?

Wonder what quantity of milk made Reg's alpine wheel? I dont think he mentioned that in the record.

Is it too big a jump to go from 5l to 20l in one go as a novice, should I try 10 l first (I normally make 5l at 1 go)?

Whats the optimal size do you think for a weekly home producer who wants cheese for the week but wants to build up a long term maturing 'bank' of really good cheese?

Dont worry if this is too overwhelming I'm trying to get a feel for the next step!

Sal

Thanks tea we cross posted :-)

Ok Just checked Reg's post and he said that the cheese was 8 x 3 inches and he used 4 gallons.
10ltr give me a cheese 7 x 2 inches approx.
I think that John posted somewhere that a gallon was 3.8ltr so that would make 3 gallon 11.4lt.

Personally I don't think that 20lt is too big.  I started out making 10ltr and usually make that amount, unless I am wanting to trial a couple of cheeses, then I will make 2 x 5lt cheeses.  I really want to make larger sizes, but unfortunately 10lt is my biggest stock pot, and I would then need to get bigger hoops, so for now I try to be content with the 10lt size.

I don't know that there would be an optimal size for the home producer, as it would depend on how much cheese you eat/give away/sell to neighbours.  I am always running out of cheese, and I usually turn over 10 - 15lrs per week, but I have a large family.  John on the other hand, is waiting for cheese to be eaten, so he can make some more, and my friend makes at least 10-15ltr of cheese every day, as she supplies her family and friends, and her Maltese community with cheese.  I get her excess on the days that she doesn't want to make cheese.  ;D

And then there is the qestion of storing.  Either in a fridge of cave, and personally I don't have much room in either.

Just my thought.

OK valuable lesson just learnt. I decided to do 10l in a 17l bain marie.

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to lift a 17l pot of fluid out of a 20l bain marie on a waist height cooker on my own. Im only little :-)

Anyone got any experience about pressing cheese into tall fat tubes or flat  short wheels and their effect on affinage or taste?

Sal

Hi Sal, the last monterey jack that I pressed is approx 8" x 4 1/2".  I had only done smaller rounds, and so this is my experiement as to how a larger cheese would mature, and what the difference in taste would be.
It is only about 3 weeks old at this stage, and I want to leave it at least another 2-3 weeks before I try it.
Again, sorry that I can't be of more help, it seems that we are both on the same quest here.

OK you clearly get what you pay for.

Here is a pic of the biggest stockpot (20l) I used this as a double boiler bain marie. After 1 use it has split, I hope you can see it. I cant remember seeing this happen when I was using it.

On the 17l pan the rivets that attach the handle leak.

We've fixed the leak and I'm now using the 20l pot for brining my bigger cheeses, so no real loss.

I measured the 17l pan it will only take 14.5 l

I might be wrong but having had a good look at the sereis I think they have used the same quantity of metal to make each pan so as they get bigger the metal is visibly thinner. If I weigh em I can probably establish that.

Just thought I'd share my experiences. Lets see how long they last :-)

Sal that's terrible, I can't believe that would happen so soon.  Can you return them?  Thankfully you didn't have that pot full of cheese when it decided to split.  >:(

all,
when doing the double boiler method, do you allow the water to touch the 2nd pot? classically when using a double boiler for cooking, melting butter, chocolate you do no allow the pot holding the food to touch the pot with boilding water.  this might be a different story when working with milk.
thanks

Hi Brandeeno

While I have enough pots to double boil, and the only time I used them as a double boiler I did allow them to touch. Frankly I am a bit lazy and just use a single stock pot on smallest ring on stove to warm the milk in. I heat slowly and stir so that no hot spots - scorching of milk, works fine so far.

Good morning Brandeeno.  I do prefer to have a complete water jacket around the curd, as I find that I get a better, more even temp that way, but that is my preference.

I tested the temperature out my sink faucet this weekend, it's about 120F (49C).  I might be able to just put my pot in my sink and make cheese by filling it up!

Although, I did find my first attempt on the stove worked well... I made my own heat distributor with a few layers of wrinkled foil (the wrinkling makes sure to get some air spaces in there to allow for slow and even heat distribution. 

Brandeeno, if you are wanting to have a water jacket of some sort and don't have a second stockpot there are a couple of other things you could try if you want to.
On the stove you could use a roasting tray half filled with water, or you could use an electric fryingpan half filled with water.  Either of these methods will help minimise scorching the stockpot base.
Just a thought.

I have been using a 7 gallon pot, using a "double - boiler" method.  That is, u add hot water to a tub, and sit the stop pot in the tub.


I have used this method twice now to make 6 gallon batches. 

I am having difficulty getting the pot hot enough in time. 

Even when my water bath is 129 deg F, it takes a long time to get Cheddar up to 102 from 88. 

I actually had to cut the "cooking time" down, because my pH was dropping and the time was running out. 

So, i either need more heat, or more surface area.

Not sure what to do.

you could try boiling some water on your stove and add that to your tub for the extra heat.

The above is exactly what I was going to suggest.  I often replace some of the water jacket with boiled water for a quicker heating time.

The tinkerer in me is working overtime.  I purchased a water heater heating element. 
(http://www.global-b2b-network.com/direct/dbimage/50349668/Stainless_Heating_Element_For_Water_Heater.jpg)

Ok,  i have fashioned a home made immersion heater.  I bought a 2000 watt 120v immersion heater from HomeDepot.  (8 dollars). Some PVC pipe, and a tube of silicone.   

I  created an immersion heater that i can just toss into a tub of water.  The ends of the heater are where the electrical connections are, are first filled with sillicon, then capped with a PVC cap. (then siliconed again.)

So far, this works great. 

can you show us some pictures!? perhaps some close up ones of where you modified things and then some of it in action

http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pmrzj_IqDAItQW71co5lI2Xo1T0tug1BrjoM455QwJil3Pv_lyJ-hELfTBAWPKHma (http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pmrzj_IqDAItQW71co5lI2Xo1T0tug1BrjoM455QwJil3Pv_lyJ-hELfTBAWPKHma)

Sorry, I seem to be struggling with this interface.
Here is the device....
(http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pmrzj_IqDAItQW71co5lI2Xo1T0tug1BrjoM455QwJil3Pv_lyJ-hELfTBAWPKHma)

Here is my Stainless Steel 20qt pot.
(http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pk-l8JZtTKYbyb53vPijuYZ5sGnE3ACqpWCZhSzLL97RHGc1X1ADXA4gF9feE54Pf)
You will note my thermometer in the bath. (That wire at the bottom, and my cheese  thermometer in the pot.

I took this rig from 60deg to 135 deg in 1.5 hours.

I was able to relatively easily control a temp change from 88F to 102F in 30 min.  That is a lot easier now. 

-Wayne.

What i purchased:
(1) Standard 120V (2000w) water heater element.
(1) 1" PVC Female threaded end.
(2) 1.25" PVC couplers
(1) 1" end Cap
(1) 2 ft 1.5" PVC pipe
(1) tube of silicone

I screwed the heating element into the threaded female 1" adapter.  Drilled a hole in the cap, threaded an extension cord through the hole in the cap, attached bare ends to the screws of the  heating element.

I slid the coupler over the 1" threaded female connector/heating element so that the electrial screws were now partially covered by the coupler.  I filled that void with silicone.  The screws and all bare wires were now jacketed by silicone.   I also filled the cap with silicone and slid that cap into the coupler.
Very gooey at this point. 
Then I drilled 3/4" holes in my 1.5" pipe, and cut it to length.  Added silicone to the inside of the pipe and slide the gooey heating element assembly inside the pipe. 
I let it dry overnight. 

I have since added and on/off switch.

So far it hasn't killed me, and i like both the price, and the results.

awesome. thanks for the details!

First batch of Cheddar:
Prep:
(http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1puRaZVY_8QBIeZzK8_mBLBtm7UaFanxYUGf4Nsv51bkm87MiQvk67Rtfb4oGsU4iE)
Cooking:
(http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pQZhbyiQyzPGVXhIlTzzX8TsGzoCh33mK4COolM4YF77QA6sX5DobAoP0bSgiuSko)

Very cool! Theres a few pieces of equipment that the brewers use to raise, maintain temperature of mash and cool rapidly that is similar in principle that Ive also been looking at for more fine grained control.

Also so potentially it could be automated in some way using iButton technology etc.

Sal

Yes that certainly looks excellent.  Would work well in laundry tubs too  if you were requiring larger pots.
Just wondering what you have brewing in he background there?

Wayne, great set up 8), I'm very envious!

Thanks for the replies.  What's brewing in the background is my 2008 vintage. My other hobby is winemaking.  I crush and ferment my wine in september. Some of that is from some California Cabernet Savignon grapes, and some from Erie Pa grown, Chancellor grapes.

I will say that my first cheddar with the new heater worked fantastic.  I hit all my time/temp/pH numbers perfectly and on time.  Here is a picture of that batch, as i have just taken it out of the press.
(http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pVICuX7T6TbFrkyCWNQPMkCSxTD_7asY7K9Nuah7Jp8kA8fQBQr_Aww2tYDZNvyKZ)
I am unfamiliar with the iButton products, but will be reading soon.   

BTW, I used 5.5psi of pressure on this wheel during my 24hour press.
-Wayne

Well I must say that that look perfect.  Just out of interest, why did you choose the PSI ratio?  It time like these were I wish we were all able to sample each other cheeses, and see what the difference is.

I make mead, which is another of my hobbies, and one which I am really starting to enjoy.  Hope the wine turns out as successful as the cheese looks.

At some point,   I may upgrade from 20qt to  something like a 100qt stock pot:
(http://www.williamsbrewing.com/images/product_images/J39.JPG)
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/100_QT_PROFESSIONAL_POT_P1490C50.cfm (http://www.williamsbrewing.com/100_QT_PROFESSIONAL_POT_P1490C50.cfm)

can someone tell me why aluminum would not work for a cheese vat?

The same reason it doesn't work for wine making, beer brewing and ritual sacrifice. The aluminum reacts to the acids the starter is and makes. As well as natural acids. Hell when I've looked in the past for larger stock pots I noticed that MOST stainless steel pots have stainless handles but are riveted on with aluminum rivets. And of course the rivets are exposed inside the pot and even that won't work. You have to make sure the entire pot is stainless and the rivets are not aluminum or the handles are spot welded on. You can have a stainless pot with an aluminum bottom, on the outside or course, which helps tremendously with with even heating.

Yes,  I am aware of the acidity issue.  Eventually the mild acids will pit the aluminum.

But, c'mon.  I make like 10lbs of cheese a month.  Am i really worried that i will dissolve my pot?

Also,  i just watched a video of cheese being made in wooden trays.  And its not like stainless steel has been around for thousands of years.

So, while I can be sold on the idea that SS is needed in a commercial dairy,  but why do "I" need it. I am not against it.  Heck, I love it.  And as a wine maker, I would really love to get some SS tanks for my primary ferments. 

But, will a plastic an NSF rated HDPE 8gal bucket really be that bad for cheesemaking?  Will an aluminum stockpot really be that bad? 

Its just hard for me to believe.

Wayne, it's not a question of ruining a pot, it's the off flavor and reactions caused by the acid mind-melding with the aluminum making it hard to control the outcome of the product.

I wouldn't be opposed to using NSF Food grade plastic, but plastic doesn't react the same way. Use a plastic bucket or a steam table tourine like I used holds enough milk for 5 gallons. Or do what I suggested cut open a keg; pretty cheap and a lot more heavy duty than any pot you can buy.

The reason i ask is i watched this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4LNS7F_-DM).

Are you talking about them using wood? If so, I would rather use wood than aluminum. I don't see any reason not to use wood as long as you use an acid based sanitizer like Star San. It's a no rinse formula, get the non-foaming. It's used in beer and wine making. You don't even have to let it dry, it's just acid based so it won't really affect anything.

Ha cute video, hope you don't mind if I link it on the website!

I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to make 20-50 pound wheels and how I would heat that much liquid. I can do 15 gallons easy, just use one of my keg kettles. I wonder what is available to me that I could use that is that big. Then again a wheel made from a 5 gallon bucket and 15 gallons milk would probably be big enough.

What's the biggest batch you've made Wayne.

Carter, 15 US gal batch! That will make a big wheel and what will you do with all tha cheese, block party?

I have made a 6 gal batch.   But mostly my batches are 4-5 gallon.

But you bring up a good point.
I would like to make reduce the amount of time I spend making cheese. When i make a batch of cheddar,  its a 7-10 hour commitment.  And that is regardless of how much cheese i am making.

So, Instead of every weekend. I would prefer to make cheese about once a month. 
that being said, I would like to make s single  wheel that is about 8-10kg.  Once a month.

I would like to make 20-ish gallon batches.  That is gonna start pushing the limits of the equipment access.  I can get a 20 gallon stockpot,  but at 20 gallons,  everything starts to change. 


So, this is what i think about. How do i remove the whey,  how do i drain, how to cut the curd, how do stir....  These are all operational problems to solve.    (rhetorical questions, that i ask myself)

But, like Cartierusm, i would like to make a larger wheel, less often.

That means I

Well that's an easy one, Wayne. You could just get what ever container you'll do it in and buy a weldless ball valve, stainless of course, from a home brew store. So you would do like a regular cheeseary cut the curd, use the ball valve to drain the whey and then cheddar in the same vessel.

Updated this threads OP with two problems I've had, similar experience to salmac, buy cheap, get cheap.

Carter, 
I'm mentally tinkering with my stockpot.

As you know, I suspend my stockpot above my water bath because I like the ability to raise and lower the milk into the bath as temperature dictates.
(http://vxxwgg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pjS2FpLir3KB85CPYN_cmXQeGpho9dAYW4GJ0W7I7DUW_mctnui2fCxoMDJWXHBY_e742jXl1T0Q/IMG_0103.JPG)
I would like to continue this practice as i move from a 5 gallon stockpot to a 25gal pot. The problem is that I have no faith in the structural ability of those handles on the 100 qt stockpot to support the weight of a full pot. Actually, I called the manufacturer and they do not recommend picking up a full pot with the handles...
(http://www.lincolnsmallwares.com/Images/Cookware101/11-Stainless%20Stock%20Pot.jpg)


To that end, I am trying to think of ways to raise and lower this larger pot like i do my 5 gal pot.  Up to this point in my thoughts, I've envisioned a metal grate that the pot would sit on. That, I am pretty confident I could raise and lower. 

But lately, the thought of welding a SS anchor to the side of the pot has crept into my head.  I was thinking of welding an Archer point to which I can link some SS chain and up to a cross bar and ultimately to my block and tackle.

So,  I need you thoughts on the structural capability of welding something like this:
(http://relimg.reliancemarine.com/4003.jpg)

to the side of the pot, and chaining it up.  is this possible? Viable?
A while back you rendered some solid advice on the steam thing, 
And since this is at least 2 zipcodes away from my comfort zone, I could really use a dose of reality.

Here are the two options that i am thinking of.  Each view is one side of the pot.

Sorry to bust your bubble but it won't work. I've converted a million pots in my time and welding to a SS pot has never worked out for me. No matter how well made or sturdy the pot seems the minute you try to weld on it, it will burn through. I'm not sure if you were to do it yourself or have it done at a shop but I wouldn't trust those anchors to hold either. I would think they would rip off and take some of the pot with you. Wayne make it easy on yourself and get a piece of wood, or plastic cutting board at Tap plastics (but might be expensive) or something else that won't rust or degrade in water, then screw a angle iron "L" along it's length and width (you'll have to cut it for width into 2 pieces as it won't overlap the center spine) to keep the material from flexing from the weight of a full pot. Then screw a couple of pieces of wood on top in 4 places with slots in them so the wood blocks can slide back and forth. then when you put the pot on you can slide the wood blocks in place and screw them down so the pot doesn't shift location as you raise and lower it. Next you'll want to bolt those same metal anchors to the wood, not screw but bolt so they don't pull through. With the chain you're going to need a block and tackle or buy for cheap an electric winch from Harbor freight. I can draw you a diagram if you need to see visually what I'm talking about. Don't suppose you have any CAD programs? If you do I can whip out a drawing for you. Hope this helps.

Sigh......


We need to talk

I know, give me a call.

Well, I hadn't used my largest 20 quart stockpot that's only good for 16 quarts in quite a while. Used it on the weekend and forgot my update in OP that it leaks through the rivet holes >:(.

Only good news was slow leak while ripening the starter culture and it self sealed itself after I added the rennet ;D.

Note to self, next time buy quality!

That's what you get for being a cheap SOB!  ;D. John the problem with most large stock pots with riveted on handles are the handles are riveted with aluminum and you don't want aluminum touching the milk.

 ;D ;D, yep back of mind somewhere I think you already politely reminded me of that :-[.

WOW! I've never seen a stock pot that leaked like that. Sorry to hear that. Maybe you can solder it with silver solder? I wouldn't try lifting it full though.

But honestly John, since most big stock pots are made this way I don't think it will have any affect. I mean the surface area is so small I don't see if making a difference.