Tomme, from a variety of sources.
I'm still formulating, so I will post as follows.
Should be entertaining for you all!
MolBasser
Are you cloning a specific one, or trying for a generic version? What are you trying to gain from combining multiple sources? Good luck!
I'm just trying to glean information and then decide how I want to do it.
I'm finalizing the plan right now, and will post up the plan.
Remember that I am still a newb poking his toe into the water.
MolBasser
LOL! The two recipes that I was looking at were yours at two different forums!
Heh. So I guess I will be following the gist of Linuxboy today!
MolBasser
hehe :)
read through my more detailed writeup on the wacheese site. Covers the fundamentals and make nuances.
That is the one I'm working off of.
Just sanitizing my stuff right now.
MolBasser
OK! Sanitize the stuff!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/531961_3238750539769_1596948057_2616155_1564517288_n.jpg)
Start Heating the milk!!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/559601_3238786940679_1596948057_2616246_1156969035_n.jpg)
MolBasser
Add the bacteria!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p480x480/547856_3239136669422_1596948057_2616408_1982356056_n.jpg)
MolBasser
Adding the rennet!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/523839_3239489318238_1596948057_2616681_1627843879_n.jpg)
MolBasser
Cut curds
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/544376_3239840247011_1596948057_2616835_1196813338_n.jpg)
Stirred curds....
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/536894_3239848447216_1596948057_2616839_279916102_n.jpg)
MolBasser
judging from curd strength, that's store milk, right?
if so:
- consider using cacl2. tommes do best with smaller curd, which needs good curd strength
- do a 20% wash to bring it to 98-100F, to avoid paste issues from using store milk.
looking good...
I added a 1/2 teaspoon of CaCl2 as the milk was heating.
And yes. Store bought whole milk.
I'm not sophisticated enough to understand the consequences of curd cut size. I just cut it, let it rest 5 minutes and stirred it up.
MolBasser
Crap! I let it get to 110F....
Dang it.
Oh well, curds are cooking. I hope I didn't kill of the bugs.....
MolBasser
You did, but can still salvage. Drain off some whey, put in cold water to bring temp down. Tommes are best done in a sink full of hot water for the slow temp increase. Stove top is a tad hard to control.
got it back to temp. I wonder if I should toss in another pack of bugs.....
MolBasser
No need, it'll take care of itself. Remember, cheesemaking works through gradients. Temp in water does not equal temp in curd for a good 20 mins. So if you caught it quickly, it'll be alright. But, you have to be concerned about something else: case hardening. With that fast a rise, the outer casein of the curds has hardened, preventing even syneresis. Cut the curds repeatedly so they are smaller, to open up new surfaces and achieve even moisture levels. gradients in curds of any type must be avoided.
I seriously need to get a book on the biochemistry of cheese...
This winging it XXXX isn't gonna fly too much longer. I need to know what is happening biochemically....
MolBasser
I know I could prolly google this, but what is the viable temp range of meosphilic bacteria?
This whole thing is sort of embarassing for a PhD molecular biologist that works in the fermentation industry....
:)
MolBasser
there's enough here in past threads that you can understand it. Or read Fox's chapters in the 2-volume work he did.
But IMHO, stick to the basics for now. Biochemistry of ripening and cultures is a far more advanced topic after you master the physics and adopt best practices. To draw a parallel to your other work, that's like trying to figure out strain selection and optimum temp for fermentation when the emphasis should be temp control and tannin extraction during enzymatic conversion. Right now, I would as a starting cheesemaker be concerned with
- How do I ensure consistency by eliminating gradients. This includes minimizing pH gradients and moisture gradients by cutting curd evenly.
- How do use the milk I have to achieve the best outcome? Some milk is poorly suited to some cheese styles. Hence, my recommendation for a wash.
- How do I ensure good control during affinage to nurture a cheese to completion.
- How does calcium affect final cheese texture, and how does acid development affect calcium degradation.
Curds cooking...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s320x320/553692_3240214216360_1596948057_2617013_380897958_n.jpg)
MolBasser
QuoteI know I could prolly google this, but what is the viable temp range of meosphilic bacteria?
generally, 65-105F. But, remember, lethality curve applies. 10-15 mins at 110F isn't the end of the world. Will just throw off pH curve due to some death and having to enter stationary growth phase instead of exponential.
Quote from: linuxboy on March 25, 2012, 09:40:15 PM
there's enough here in past threads that you can understand it. Or read Fox's chapters in the 2-volume work he did.
But IMHO, stick to the basics for now. Biochemistry of ripening and cultures is a far more advanced topic after you master the physics and adopt best practices. To draw a parallel to your other work, that's like trying to figure out strain selection and optimum temp for fermentation when the emphasis should be temp control and tannin extraction during enzymatic conversion. Right now, I would as a starting cheesemaker be concerned with
- How do I ensure consistency by eliminating gradients. This includes minimizing pH gradients and moisture gradients by cutting curd evenly.
- How do use the milk I have to achieve the best outcome? Some milk is poorly suited to some cheese styles. Hence, my recommendation for a wash.
- How do I ensure good control during affinage to nurture a cheese to completion.
- How does calcium affect final cheese texture, and how does acid development affect calcium degradation.
This is all good stuff, and goes to the fact that I just lept into making cheese by saying "I can do that" without really thinking about it.
In retrospect, it is laughable that I would think that it was any less complicated than making beer properly.
I have a lot, a LOT of learning to do.
MolBasser
It's not so hard in the end. You can do it; it's a good deal of fun :). But you can either follow well-crafted recipes exactly where thought has been put in to help people avoid common mistakes (like the recipes I and others post here), or you can figure out all the intricacies and understand why you are making a decision. Or some combination. Winging it is cool, pretty fun even, but have to ask yourself what are you after? If consistency, well, that's like lab work, and comparable to any fermentation technology.
Right now, I'm just winging it.
In a few cheeses I will have learned some stuff and will do it better...
MolBasser
Getting ready to drain the curds.
There seems to be quite a large amount of bitty specks that have broken off of the curds.
Is this a symptom of my temperature foul?
MolBasser
Nope it just happens we all have that. Not to worry!
Sweet!
Just getting ready to drain the curds.
MolBasser
Beginning the drain.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/536979_3241109318737_1596948057_2617834_1233768479_n.jpg)
The two bags of curds draining...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/548375_3241149559743_1596948057_2617854_1601424756_n.jpg)
MolBasser
Pot o whey!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/p480x480/306177_3241266082656_1596948057_2617922_842119302_n.jpg)
MolBasser
Drained curds...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s320x320/560208_3241535609394_1596948057_2618162_2054857124_n.jpg)
Salted curds....
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/555844_3241539529492_1596948057_2618167_77414290_n.jpg)
First press!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/564469_3241591450790_1596948057_2618266_1332161088_n.jpg)
MolBasser
50# of ghetto!!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/p480x480/549139_3241937179433_1596948057_2618661_120244457_n.jpg)
MolBasser
Remond me of that old show Home Improvement.
MORE POWER!
So you've got that braced against the wall so it doesn't topple over, right? Look out below! :)
-Boofer-
Yes, it was ballanced when I went to bed, at 3:30am there was a structural failure in the plastic cup I had in the follower and the weight collapsed and shattered the plate.
That was fun sweeping up... >:(
Luckily, no damage to the cheese or the mold or the counter. Time to brine it.
Again, I toss instructions to the wind and just wing it. One of these days I will follow a recipe properly.
And I need to build a press that doesn't scare the crap out of me....
MolBasser
Removing the cheese proved a tad difficult, even though I did spray my cloth with some vinegar. At any rate. Lost a few edges. No great deal. I'm not looking to win beauty contests yet.
Been in the brine for a while now and I'm rotating it and such. It floats just a hair above the surface of the brine, so I am rotating it pretty often.
MolBasser
The cheese seems a little soft, but since I have no idea at all what to expect, meh. It is what it is.
I feel like a homebrewer that is making beer with extract in a too small pot and making up the volume in the fermenter.
I need to make cheese more often and read a ton more.
MolBasser
Following a recipe does help a lot. It removes a lot of the doubt and inconsistencies. Timing, pH changes, temperature...all play a role in making a cheese.
Let's see what it says on the seat of my pants...hmmm. ;)
Did you follow a recipe when homebrewing? How did you know what kind and how much finishing hops to add...and when? Grain bill, what...where? Converting crushed malt into wort? What temp?
-Boofer-
I brewed the same way when I started homebrewing, but as I got more involved in the hobby I started paying much more attention.
I have a computer program that calculates IBU and such from hops and gravity and color from malt.
As I got more serious, I got way more serious. I got so serious, that I went to brewing school, got a diploma in brewing and then lucked out at got a job at Sierra Nevada. At which point I essentially quit homebrewing.... LOL. Something about brewing 800bbl of beer a day all week just kills the drive to homebrew.
I'm still a complete newbie at cheesemaking, but I will get more serious and then I will learn more and make better cheese. I still need to make mistakes and learn from them.
Good news is that I just found a guy at work with goats and I now have access to fresh goat's milk! Woot.
I need to drop by the library and see if they have any cheesemaking books that I can borrow as my budget is such that it will be a bit before I can buy the books I want.
At any rate, this seems to be the most successful cheese that I have done so far..... Now to not screw up the rind maintenance.
MolBasser
So, here is the cheese.....
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s320x320/545685_3254474812866_1596948057_2624786_77952355_n.jpg)
I have it in my cave (without increased humidity) at 55F.
I'm some what unsure of the wash process for the rind in the first few days. Do I start washing every day now or wait for the rind to develop a bit?
Do I wash with fully saturated brine or do I wash with a lesser concentration, or something else?
So far, today I have just flipped it and not washed it at all. What sort of cloth do you wipe it down with?
Sorry for the newb questions.
MolBasser
Quote from: MolBasser on March 28, 2012, 03:08:49 AM
So, here is the cheese.....
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s320x320/545685_3254474812866_1596948057_2624786_77952355_n.jpg)
I have it in my cave (without increased humidity) at 55F.
I'm some what unsure of the wash process for the rind in the first few days. Do I start washing every day now or wait for the rind to develop a bit?
Give it a few days to dry to the touch
Do I wash with fully saturated brine or do I wash with a lesser concentration, or something else?
It depends on the cheese. With this one did you brine it al all? Add salt in sme way?
So far, today I have just flipped it and not washed it at all. What sort of cloth do you wipe it down with?
I use a cheese brush or cheese cloth
Sorry for the newb questions.
MolBasser
There is more information here than you will find in most books unless you get a college text. One advantage of following the posted recipes is they have the instructions for how to proceed with the cheese after the make as well. Some basic things like washing, oiling etc. are just talked about here.
Yes it was brined after pressing in saturated brine for 4 hours (it is a 1.5# cheese).
I really want to get more deeply into the biochemistry and micro/molecular biology of the aging process.
Being the science geek that I am, and working in the fermentation science field gets me interested.
My stupid gung ho self jumps in without the proper knowledge first just to see if I can do it. I'll get better.
The nice thing about books is that it is all neat and organized and easy to access. Forums are awesome sources of information, but it is sometimes hard to find it.
MolBasser
The cheese looks great! What style is it?
There are a lot of threads on the forum talking about rind maintenance. What kind of rind were you looking to develop? That kind of steers you to the rind maintenance regimen. Use the search function and the wiki to find the info.
-Boofer-
Flipped the cheese again, it is almost dry.
MolBasser
I just hope that I didn't kill off all the bacteria by the 10 degree slip early on.
I'm sure some made it through, but might not be the innoculation rate that I wanted. Oh well. I is what it is.
New cheese make this weekend!
MolBasser
Yes, I need to make a "real" press too. The weight system like that has also failed me many times and my junky screw tightened cheese press isn't really good for much, either.
The cheese looks good, what are you making this weekend?
Until I make a real press I'm concentrating on low press stuff and penC ripened cheeses...
This weekend, I have my old homebrew club in town to tour the brewery.
These are the folks that gave me the confidence to make brewing my career, so I have a special spot for them in my heart.
This weekend will be about the Zymurgeeks.
MolBasser
Have fun!
It was a great visit. Fun tour, dinner and tasting.
One of the members brought her latest gouda for sampling and it was pretty good.
About half of the members of the brew club have now branched off to making cheese also, so there was some good cheese conversation, and sausage making entered the mix of conversation too.
And now to pay some attention to my cheese. The rind is dry to the touch now, and the cheese seems to be more "stable" physically. Time to get my brine wash on!
MolBasser
I've been flipping it every day and wiping it down with brine.
Looks reasonable, I guess, as I am new to the game. I have a little dish of water in my cave to up the humidity.
I need to get a hygrometer.
MolBasser
WalAMrt has some cheap one for around a dollar that seem to work as well as my good one! They are tiny to have a few of them on different shelves. Near new and old cheeses.
Sweet, I will check it out tomorrow.
Cheese seems to be doing fine.
MolBasser
A couple of days of lax maintenance has resulted in some mold (aspergillus and some black stuff). The aspergillus wipes away easily with saline, but the black stuff seems deeper in the rind.
I've wiped it down, but that will just spread the molds. I guess I have to read up on rind maintenance.
Any quick tips on mold control?
MolBasser
Quote from: MolBasser on April 11, 2012, 03:46:20 AM
Any quick tips on mold control?
Be vigilant. Use vinegar & salt. Use a clean toothpick if you need to gently nudge stuff out of crevices with the vinegar & salt mix. Keep pets (and wives) out while you're making cheese. :)
Good luck.
-Boofer-
Thanks. I am using vinegar tomorrow.
I am also making a cheese tomorrow. Haven't figured it out, but I have a couple of gallons of milk....
MolBasser