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Since I built my dutch cheese press (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9425.0.html) I have been thinking about hard cheeses, cheddar's
Swiss, etc. so I flipped a coin and Swiss style wins, I have been investigating and searching the forum for a recipe and came up with cheezwhizz's recipe (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6462.0;attach=11562)
I want to add one more gallon to this make and am wondering If I should up the starters, Propionii  S, rennet or any other change's  anyone can suggest and should I add 1/2 gallon of each type of milk or can I buy and add just one type and add it, if so which one would be preferred whole or 2%?
I believe I will start it Saturday when the Wife aint home and in my way  :o

  2 gal. 2% milk (+) 2 gal. whole 3.5% milk = 4 gal. total

   3/8 tsp TA61

   3/8 tsp LH100

   1/8 tsp  Propionii  S

   1.5 tsp CACL

   1/2 tsp Veal Rennet

Any and all suggestions as always are welcomed and encouraged  :)

From reading the posts on this forum, it seems many people have difficulty with good eye formation; someone even said that a ten pounder is the smallest size to go with. I've done three cheeses with eyes, and I used four gallons of milk. The eye formation was good, but smaller eyes as you'd expect. I'd suggest double the recipe. The mold I used was a 7" ID, and it seemed to be a good form factor for these cheeses. The mold is the large Brie mold from www.thecheesemaker.com (http://www.thecheesemaker.com) and I cut my own follower for it from a cutting board style countertop.

this is the one I will be using

extra-large height 6in (15cm).,inside diameter 8.25in.(21cm). Can be used with 3-8 gallons (11-30 liters) of milk.
Use cheese cloth with this mould so the curds do not leak out the holes and induce a smoother surface.. The lid fits to the bottom
and the other deciding factor is pot size only gotuh 24-qrt

Does it really matter how large the eyes are? 

I think since this is my first one if it has eyes that will be a plus :)

O.K. have been reading Sailors, "my baby is swelling" what a great thread, he mentions Swiss being made with partially skimmed milk, so I believe I will be using 2 gallons 2% with 3 gallons whole right out of the cow milk, 1/8-tsp. Propionic, I am still wondering if 3/8-tsp. each of the TA and LA, I seem to remember another thread that calls for 3/16-tsp Ta, 1/16-tsp LA I cant find it now ??? not sure, but I think that was for a 2 or 3 gallon batch.
WOW! I'm gettin uh headache. :o

Will you be making Emmenthal or Baby Swiss?

-Boofer-

Emmenthal, I think I'll make an Emmenthal, anyway this is the plan (this is what I hope I make)  ;)

Well alright then! Good luck.

Eyes watchin' you.

-Boofer-

Wow, now I'm inspired to do a Swiss.

H-K-J, I'm curious where you get your cultures.  I am in the Salt Lake area but drive to Boise now and again.  The local home brew stores have very limited supplies and no variations.  Do you order online?

How did it go on the Swiss?

 knipknup; I will go and get my milk today so if nothing gets in the way I will make a cheese in the morrow  :-\
I get my supplies from the cheese maker (click here (http://thecheesemaker.com/cultures.htm)) if you have him send them priority mail
it should only take four days to receive them, I have had excellent service, he is a heck of uh nice guy to. :) I would have thought Salt lake would have someone who carries cultures ???

Quote from: knipknup on April 23, 2012, 05:54:01 PM
Do you order online?

I do all of my cheese supply shopping online. Here are some folks I've dealt with:

• The CheeseMaker (http://thecheesemaker.com/)
• Leeners (http://www.leeners.com/cheese/store/index.shtml)    (I started with their cheesemaking kit.)
• The New England Cheesemaking Supply Company (http://www.cheesemaking.com/cheesemakingingredients.html)
• The Dairy Connection (http://www.dairyconnection.com/commerce/catalog.jsp?catId=1)
• Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=cheese+making+supplies/)
• Danlac (http://www.danlac.com/)
• Glengarry Cheesemaking (http://glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/)
The last two are in Canada, but they have both been very good and responsive.

FWIW...

-Boofer-

Thanks for the great list. I did a local search and came up empty. Now for the Swiss order...

Quote from: H-K-J on April 19, 2012, 06:06:58 PM
this is the one I will be using

extra-large height 6in (15cm).,inside diameter 8.25in.(21cm). Can be used with 3-8 gallons (11-30 liters) of milk.
Use cheese cloth with this mould so the curds do not leak out the holes and induce a smoother surface.. The lid fits to the bottom

I have one of those. I think mine shrunk. The lid no longer fits all the way to the bottom. Instead, it gets stopped about one third or half way to the bottom.  I believe it used to cleanly touch the bottom.

So, what happened? I drop my mould, lid, and PlyBan (cut to mould size) into a pot of boiling water just before I put the curds in the mould. I think that caused the plastic to downsize. If I wanted to use this mould to make a Brie, I'd have some trouble.  :'(

Anyone else have this problem?  ???

-Boofer-

QuoteSo, what happened? I drop my mould, lid, and PlyBan (cut to mould size) into a pot of boiling water just before I put the curds in the mould

that worries me I will be sterilizing mine with boiling water ???

Quote from: knipknup on April 24, 2012, 04:23:36 AM
Thanks for the great list. I did a local search and came up empty. Now for the Swiss order...

Wow! at one time I was going to drive to Salt lake thinking for sure there would be some place for me to buy cultures :( Glad I didn't waist the gas, my wife would have been real happy on the way home (3 1/2 hours with an attitude?)
here's an update; No milk till this afternoon :'( so tomorrow will be Cheese day ;D

Quote from: H-K-J on April 24, 2012, 02:53:42 PM
No milk till this afternoon :'( so tomorrow will be Cheese day ;D

The crowd is growing restless...I hope the milk gets here in time! There could be trouble!  :D

-Boofer-

Got Milk? YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!  ;D

Nice yellow high fat raw milk! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

five gallons of pre-cheese. time to party!

Woo Hoo! Milk!

O.k. some pic's and a question, :-\
after brine, should I dry the cheese with paper towels and then air dry?
the make was very intense and pressing stressful, but that's just me ???

looks good so far, and the new press looks like it's working great.

Beautiful press!  Beautiful cheese!

I've only made two goudas and I did not hand dry either after pressing, but just air dry for about 2 days.  Actually, the second (and most recent one - just vac packed it this morning) was air dried for about 4 days, flipping twice a day.  The wheel is still really soft but dry to the touch.  I'll check tonight to see if it has sweat in the bag.  I don't think it will but...

Disaster has struck, went to turn in brine and it fell into 3 pieces and crumbs :'( >:(
there should be a lot of swear words here but we have a G audience on the forum :-X

Quote from: H-K-J on April 26, 2012, 05:25:46 PM
Disaster has struck, went to turn in brine and it fell into 3 pieces and crumbs :'( >:(
there should be a lot of swear words here but we have a G audience on the forum :-X

that sucks!  :-[

can it be saved? like milling it and repressing like a cheddar. i would assume it has all the salt uptake it needs.

well I believe this is what I will have to do or just bag it? I am thinking repress :(
Cadillac time >:D
Dang,Dang,Dang,Dang,Dang,Dang,!!!!!!!!!

O.K. last ditch effort, what do you think 400.20 lbs. at the plunger or 7.5 psi. on the cheese is going to do.
Don't have any other thought :-[
and to think I asked DJD, where in hec would you use the pressure a quad pulley system can produce :-\

Emmenthal uses thermophilic bacteria. The acid production on these usually starts kicking in hard at hours 5-6. At that point the cheese normally starts fusing like superglue and it wants to stick to everything. 2 psi should be more than enough pressure to get a good solid wheel.

So there must be something else going on. The thermos are so reliable, that I would suspect that something happened to suppress acid production. I would first look at the bacteria themselves. So pull out a strong magnifying glass and... - just kidding. Was this a new package of starter? You might have used too little starter, in which case acid production would be delayed. However, the thermos should have still kicked in during pressing.

I would also suspect it may also have been way overcooked. By pressing under 120F whey for an extended period, you may have really dried out the curds and lost butterfat. After cooking, and before pressing, a handful of curds should make a nice cohesive ball when squeezed, but they should still break apart easily. Without a pH meter, it is important to learn the "feel" of your cheese at different stages.

When the cheese broke, were you being gentle or was there cheese brutality involved? ;) Why do you say that the make was intense and the pressing stressful? It's hard to give more input without exact details of your make.

Quote from: H-K-J on April 26, 2012, 05:25:46 PM
Disaster has struck, went to turn in brine and it fell into 3 pieces and crumbs :'( >:(
there should be a lot of swear words here but we have a G audience on the forum :-X

I have several questions:

• How long and at what pressure did you press before brining?
• Did it seem like you got a pretty good knit to the curds?
• What was the strength of your brine?
• Was the rind fairly firm/hard when you tried to turn it? The salt should have firmed it up.
• Did one of your drill bits make an escape?

I dry my cheeses coming out of the whey-brine. That helps them move towards overall dryness more quickly.

-Boofer-

from Cheesewizz recipe;

   warm milk to 90 degrees.  (hit this perfectly)
   add CACL, Starters, Proprioni...let ripen for 60 mins (no CACL raw milk)
   add rennet and multiply floc. x 2.5 (floc. 14-min= 35-min)
   cut curds to 1/4 inch and let heal for 10-15 mins
   start to gently stir while raising temp to 100F in 40 mins (again hit it right on)
   then slowly raise temp of curds to 122F in another 40 mins(again just right)
   cook at 122F for approx 30 mins more....curds should be "pea - rice size".
   (cook until semi-dry and semi-firm but still able to knit easily)
   drain in cloth and load into mold in one piece or large chunks. (everything went well, seemed to be as specified)
From here I changed the pressure and weights to fit my press and 8-1/4" mould
   press under warm whey (120 degrees) for 20 mins. @ 15 lbs
   flip and re-press warm @ 25 lbs for 20 mins.
   flip and dry press at 25 lbs. for 1 hour.
   press at 50-60 lbs for 8 hours @ room temp. (7.5 inch mold) (I jacked this up a little more than 72-lbs. 1.36psi. At 2:00am I didn't like how it had knitted I bumped up the weight to 100-lbs, 1.87-psi. left it in the press for 5 more hour's)
   remove from press and brine in "medium" brine for 6 hours.
(saturated brine is too strong and will kill proprioni..).Use 1/4 cup salt to 4 cups of whey. (this is exactly what I made)

QuoteI would also suspect it may also have been way overcooked. By pressing under 120F whey for an extended period, you may have really dried out the curds and lost butterfat. After cooking, and before pressing, a handful of curds should make a nice cohesive ball when squeezed, but they should still break apart easily. Without a pH meter, it is important to learn the "feel" of your cheese at different stages.

When the cheese broke, were you being gentle or was there cheese brutality involved?

I was as gentle as I would have been with a new born baby grandchild  :)
as for the 120-deg. just followed what was recommended.

Boofer,

QuoteDid one of your drill bits make an escape?

I knew someone was gonna drill me on that one ;D But, nope didn't find a spare one in the mix.  :)

Details are important - how much milk, how much starter, which ones, how much rennet, etc.

When you say that you pressed under whey at 15#. How? Did you use your press or do it in the make pot? You might want to consider "calibrating" your press with a scale so you know what you are really pressing. (discussed several times in the forum). My presses for example apply 20# at the plunger with no weight attached, so it's actually not possible for me to press with just 15#. A psi of 1.36 is a little light. I would shoot for 2. That would take 107# at the plunger. A little more won't hurt. My presses work out to a 25 to 1 mechanical advantage plus 20# of dead weight. For Swiss, I use 5# of weight, so that's 125+20 = 145# or around 2.5 psi.

In looking at your photo, the wheel looks pretty short. That would make it more fragile. 6 gallons is a better fit for an 8.25" mould.

If you cooked until the curds were "semi-dry and semi-firm but still able to knit easily", you then cooked under 120F whey for another 40 minutes. I would use warm, but not hot whey next time. Personally, I never press under whey, but I have a heated draining table so the curds don't cool down too quickly. Then I work as quickly as possible to hoop and get things into the press. I would also use a little longer floc multiplier. I use 3.5 to give a moister, more pliable knit.

Quote from: Boofer on April 24, 2012, 04:37:24 AM
I have one of those. I think mine shrunk. The lid no longer fits all the way to the bottom. Instead, it gets stopped about one third or half way to the bottom.  I believe it used to cleanly touch the bottom.

So, what happened? I drop my mould, lid, and PlyBan (cut to mould size) into a pot of boiling water just before I put the curds in the mould. I think that caused the plastic to downsize. If I wanted to use this mould to make a Brie, I'd have some trouble.  :'(

Anyone else have this problem?  ???

It looks like Ricki's Large M2 mold (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/40-Hard-Cheese-Mold-Large-1.html) from cheesemaking.com.  Her site says that it is 7 and 3/4 inch diameter, but mine is brand new and unused and I just measured it at closer to 8 inch inside diameter.  The follower is a very tight fit.  I made the mistake of putting the follower in upside down for storage, and it got stuck and I had a heck of a time getting it out.  I don't have plyban, but if it is thicker than butter muslin, I very much doubt I could use it with my M2 mold.  It will be an extremely tight fit with butter muslin or cheesecloth.  And even though the mold is not described as tapered, it does get tighter at the bottom. 

The plastic molds look like HDPE.  They should hold up to boiling since the melting point is somewhere between 221 and 250, but personally I would not do that as I expect they would be soft enough to deform at the boiling point of water.   

QuoteDetails are important - how much milk, how much starter, which ones, how much rennet, etc.

When you say that you pressed under whey at 15#. How? Did you use your press or do it in the make pot? You might want to consider "calibrating" your press with a scale so you know what you are really pressing.

Sailor, at the moment I am putting together my notes and will post all of the details soon, as far as calibrating the press, at each weight change I double checked with a scale before starting the press time, they were all within +/- 1#
I went ahead and re milled, then pressed with 400# pressure/7.487psi for 27hrs. and then just vacuum packed it and will just have to Waite now,
everyone's help is greatly appreciated, I ain't givin up on this yet just going to find another recipe  :-[

I like that. What a catchy name...Mystery Swiss.  :)

Swiss on the Dark Side....

Looks like your redo worked. Fingers crossed.

-Boofer-

Nice recovery.  Sort of a Swiss Cantel (Swantell maybe?).  A cheese to you for keepin' on keepin' on.

- Jeff

I think you're right, Jeff! Press, remill, and press again....

This might just be better than what you originally started doing. Time will tell. How long will you age it?

I would agree...a cheese for dogged persistence in the face of blinding defeat.  :D

-Boofer-

Thanks for the cheese guys :)
sooo as promised here are the details of the complete mess (do not try this at home alone you need someone to freak-out with you  :o)

5 gallon raw unpasteurized milk
⅜-tsp. TA61
¼-tsp. LH100
⅛-tsp. PS
⅛-tsp. dry calf rennet
•   6:30 am. Milk out of fridge
•   8:30 am. sterilize equipment
•   9:15 am. Pour milk into double boiler, start heating (milk temp 58°f)
•   10:45 am. Milk temp 89.6°f sprinkled TA and LH cultures over surface of milk
•   10:55 am. Rehydrate cultures 10 min mix in (milk temp 90°f) let ripen 60 min.
•   11:30 am. Mix ⅛-tsp. dry calf rennet in ¼ cup distilled water
•   11:55 am. Sprinkled rennet over surface of milk, mixed in (temp 91.8°f)
•   12:09 pm. 14 min. floc time x 2.5 = 35 min.
•   12:44 pm. Cut curd ¼ in. let heal
•     1:00 pm. Started raising heat to 100°f slowly in 40 min.
•     1:40 pm. Continued to raise temp to 122°f slowly for 40 more minutes
•     2:20 pm. At 122°f let curd cook for 30 min.
•     2:50 pm. Curds pea/rice sized, drained whey from curd, placed curd in cloth lined mold
Using Dutch style lever press with an MA=5.676471, tare weight of 12-lbs.
•     3:10 pm. Pressed with 21-lbs pressure on mold in 120°f whey for 20 min.
•     3:30 pm. Flipped, redressed, repressed @ 30-lbs (on mold) in 115° whey for 20 min.
•     3:50 pm. Flipped, redressed, repressed dry @ 30-lbs (on mold) for 1-hr.
•     4:50 pm. Flipped, redressed, repressed @ 80-lbs (on mold) for 9-hrs. (was supposed to be
  8-hrs, slept in)
•     2:00 am. Should have been able to start the brine, I didn't like how it felt or looked it had surface cracks, I decided to raise the pressure to 100-lbs on the mold, pressed it for 6-hrs. longer
•     8:00 am. Removed cheese from mold, no surface crack's at this time, placed it in the brine
•   11:00 am. Carefully tried to turn the cheese over, it broke into pieces, at this time my wife freaked out! I didn't notice this at first I was having a freak-out time of my own. After thing's settled down a suggestion was made on the forum to re-mill and repress, as a last ditch effort and not coming up with anything else
•   12:00 pm. Re-milled, placed back in mold set in press and put 400-lbs. of pressure on the mold
•     4:00 pm. 28-hrs latter, removed cheese from press and mold, vacuum packed and hid in the cool room.

                                               Sooo, after all that, my conclusions are,

•   cooked to long, especially with the added heat time pressing under whey at 120°
•   took too long in draining the whey
•   took to long getting it in the mold
•   to light a pressure at the start
•   not enough at the end?????
•   woulduh-shoulduh-coulduh :-[  (I will post pics of the make latter)

Your comments are cordially invited.

QuoteSort of a Swiss Cantel (Swantell maybe?).

Jeff, maybe I invented a new cheese ::)

Boofer, I do believe if I forget about it, it will age awhile, if I don't, 2 to 3 months

Ah that press it a thing of beauty! Looks like you recovered well. Hope the innards meld as well as the outards did.

and here i though your press was overkill!

the repress looks great. i hope it tastes as nice as it looks.

I have taken the mystery (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/04/i-thought-i-was-makin-uh-swiss-cheese.html) out of the cool room and will age at 70+ degree's just to see if the PS is going to work
Figured what the heck :-\

I can't see why it wouldn't work.  It wouldn't get damaged by being repressed.  I'm curious to see if the cheese has the internal integrity to withstand being stretched by gass formation.  The ending of this mystery will eventually be good, I'm sure of it, but there will be surprises along the way.

- Jeff

After four days at around 71 deg. the cheese is sweating out fat inside the vacuum sealed bag, should this be something to be worried about?
I know I have read somewhere that it is normal? :-\

I am seeing small openings on the surface of the cheese, inside the bag and the oils seem to be pressured out into the bag, starting to get spongy  :-\
you can press on it and seems to come back, not much (if any) bulging as in PS pressure, keeping it at about 71 deg. + just waiting to see how the mystery Swiss (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/04/i-thought-i-was-makin-uh-swiss-cheese.html) is gonna do ???

Can you set your camera on macro to get some close up shots?  It could be that the paste is just not stretchy enough, and the pressure is just creating blow holes.  Having never tried a swiss make myself, it could be that I'm just creating a blow hole here, so take comments with a high salt gradient in mind.  :)  Anyway, if you can get some pictures of the rind openings and such then people with more knowledge than I might be able to figure out what's going on.

- Jeff

Jeff, here is what it looks like, one week at 71/+deg.

I make Emmenthal quite often and I always let mine air dry for a few days @53 then into warm room @ 62 for 2 weeks. I will drop the temp if I see it sweating fat. I also do not vac seal until it is finished forming the eyes.
I am following Margret Morris's recipe in the cheese Makers  Manual

If you reed the post at the first you can see I didn't have much of a choice this went bad right from the moment I tried to flip it in the brine :-[

I think 71 is way to warm it should be around 60-63. 71 I think is too warm for any cheese!!
You might be better off just putting it in a cold room @ 50- 55 and it will be some kinda cheese just not Emmenthal. Losing all that fat will result in a very dry cheese.

Propionic needs room temperature to grow & produce CO2.

thanks Sailor for that clarification 
I believe I have read that three week's is appropriate for room temp then back to cool room.

Update; It has been four full weeks since I made the mystery Swiss (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/04/i-thought-i-was-makin-uh-swiss-cheese.html) and three weeks since I set it out at room temp (70/72°f) the bag was swelling, the Cheese wasn't :( and had a lot of butter fat running around. :o
I opened the bag to drain most of the fat out, the cheese smelled very nice, the fat tasted interesting, no bad flavors,
I didn't dare move the cheese around to much, it still seem's very fragile and bend's easily  :-\ so now I will place it in the cool room and flip it once in awhile but try to place it at the back of my mind and let it age for a few months ???
It is now time to try something new but I think I will make another Stilton first ;D

Looks like cheese texture is not heal after that recovery.
And it leak lipids and shermanii's work out of cheese.

Hande

Quote from: Hande on May 25, 2012, 06:41:49 PM
Looks like cheese texture is not heal after that recovery.
And it leak lipids and shermanii's work out of cheese.

Hande

yup my thoughts exactly

You should still have reasonably good taste, reminiscent of swiss types, but without the openings. I would age it like a gruyere, including morge, and see how it turns out.

Well, we'll put this under the failed heading and experience :-[
even after 7.5-psi the curd never did knit together
it has been two months, so before I try another one decided to cut this (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/04/i-thought-i-was-makin-uh-swiss-cheese.html) to see what happened on the inside.
the way it falls apart I figure I just made Swiss cheese crumble's  :-\
It doesn't taste bad at all, a little chewy, yet it taste's like an Alpine type cheese, but it ain't no Emmenthal
I believe we have a handle on what went wrong, next one will be much better (I hope)
Next week, mamma willin, we may just have to try again ;)

What is that yellow stuff on the rind...butterfat?

Sorry about this make. Been there...done that.  :-[

After 54 cheese makes, I've had my share of failures. Not pretty...well, pretty disappointing.

-Boofer-

A shame, I was hoping this would rectify itself.  Oh well, if it melts it would be great as a cheese sauce, or mac and cheese, or cheese omelette, ... mmmmm! 

- Jeff

QuoteWhat is that yellow stuff on the rind...butterfat?

yes that was butterfat

Quote from: JeffHamm on June 24, 2012, 11:52:28 PM
A shame, I was hoping this would rectify itself.  Oh well, if it melts it would be great as a cheese sauce, or mac and cheese, or cheese omelette, ... mmmmm! 

- Jeff

the wife used it in mac-n-cheese worked very nice, :) I tried it in a sandwich, not so nice :( kept tryin to run away :'(

A note on successful Emmental--the first 1-2 weeks should be at 50-55 degrees and 80% humidity  to build the rind. . You then take it out and let the eyes form at room temperature for 2-3 weeks, until the cheese begins to swell. I have never bagged a swiss during this period because I fear it may inhibit eye formation. I age at 42 degrees for about a month and then bag for the remainder of the aging period, or (most successful), if I have enough room in the fridge, I age there.