I've noticed a few people using cheese making recipes that call for cow's skim milk & cream such as what Stuart is currently using (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,942.msg6569.html#msg6569).
Conversely I've generally used whole cow's milk.
The cow's milk others and I are generally using is store bought pasteurized & homogenized milk and ultra-pasteurized & homogenized "whipping" cream, at least here in North America as tough to get raw milk.
Different fat content of milks and creams in USA according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_content_of_milk):
- Nonfat/Skim/Skimmed/Fat Free = 0-0.5%
- 1%/Lowfat = ~1.0%
- 2%/Reduced Fat = ~2%
- Whole = ~3.25%
- Half & Half (common for coffee) = 10.5-18%
- Light/Coffee/Table Cream = 18-30%
- Medium Cream = 25%
- Whipping Cream/Light Whipping Cream = 30-36%
- Heavy Whipping Cream = 36%
- Manufacturers Cream = 40%
- Butter = 80%
And for UK:
- Skimmed = <0.3%
- 1%/The One = 1.0%
- Semi-skimmed = 1.5-1.8%
- Whole/Full Fat = 3.5%
- Channel Island Milk/Breakfast Milk = 5.5%
My question is, why not just use ~3.25-3.5% fat whole milk and add some cream if need higher fat content rather than using skim milk with 0-0.5% fat and then adding very high fat content cream back in? Especially as whole, 2%, 1%, 0% are in North America, all priced the same or almost the same.
Or am I missing something here?
John, great post....
Right now I am trying something different with my milk.
On the last few batches I have been using 3 gallons of 2% with 1 gallon of whole milk. I have also been adding 24 oz. of heavy (ultra pasteurized) whipping cream to each 4 gallon batch.
The results of this method have been by far the best curd I have gotten to date.
The curd is very firm and really appears to be of the same consistancy of raw milk curd that I've seen.
Of course I have no way of knowing if this will produce a cheese that has the proper consistancy but as for the curd set, I am sold.
Tonight I did a Provolone with 2 gallons of whole milk and 8 oz. of whipping cream and although I was very happy with the curd I got out of this, it was nothing compared to the 2%/whole/cream mixture I've been using for the past two weeks.
I've been doing a lot of experimenting lately and my best curd comes from using the mixture of 2%, whole, and whipping cream and making sure that the milk sits at room temperature (70 degrees) for at least three hours.
Each time I've followed this protocol I've been extremely satisfied with my curd set.
Thanks for making this post.
I'm really going to be interested in seeing what others have to say.
Dave
I feel all special now ;D
I am using the skim milk + whipping cream because I am just starting out, and the skim milk is $2.49 a gallon in Aldi! It makes it cheaper for me while I don't know what I am doing, then I can start using the whole milk once I am happy I have the basic techniques sorted :)
What recipe are you using, because I don't any recipes that acutally use skim milk? A lot of people and books might refer to skim milk but they are really talking about 2%. Seeing as whole milk is only 3.5%, 2% is really not that low.
see under "dry and cream" here: http://schmidling.com/milk.htm
I got the skim milk because it's cheaper!
My book advised to use skim milk when you need to standardize milk for making parm/romano etc, as they need a low cream percentage.
I was just making sure everyone else knew as originally I thought skim and 2% were the same.
This is a great post as I've many of the same questions. First off with 'skim milk' do you think the recipes that call for this are talking traditional skimming of the cream off the raw milk? I would tend to think more like Carter and say these are probably in the 2% range rather than skim milk by 'store bought' standards. It would be interesting to find a way to easily test the milkfat content.
chilipepper(Ryan)
I think you have something there in that many recipes are handed down over the ages and/or could be referring more to skimmed raw milk where skimmed meant taking the cream off the top (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk#Creaming_and_homogenization), not to modern mass manufactured milk where it is processed in fat content down to the second decimal place IE 3.25% whole milk.
When I say modern, I mean in the last 40-50 years as when I was young I remember cream on top of store bought milk, and today's choice of whole, 2%, 1%, skimmed is thus a recent occurrence, in fact I don't remember 1% here in US until the last 10 years.
John, you make a very fine point.
And for clarification (me being from a different country and all!), is "vitamin D milk" the same as "whole milk", or is it some industrial abomination ???
That's a good point Stuart, that I've always thought about, but I have no choice so I don't really care to do the research. But I think it's whole milk wherein they add Vitamin D back in.
tell you what... I will buy 2 gallons of it and turn it into a farmhouse Cheddar, and let you know how it turns out :)
Hi guys....
As for true skim, it's worthless in cheesemaking.
The first time I tried to make a parmesan, I used skim...not 2%, not 1% but skim.
The result was that it cooked to a curd that closely resembled gravel.
I've decided that if a recipe calls for skim they are speaking of what we know as 2% milk.
I used this on my last parmesan (along with a gallon of whole) and was really happy with the results.
Dave
You can't use it, but some books call 2% skim, or at least one book does so it confused me originally.
Likesspace/Dave
I don't think store bought non/very low fat skim is worthless in cheesemaking as many people seem to be using it, as long as it's used with some cream, but then it kind of voids the point and might as well just use 2% or whole milk.
Well there ya have it. The only reason they say to do that on the schmidling site is to get a better set, but I'm sticking with regular milks.
This is a great thread as I think this is important to understand.
I think there is a distinction to be made between "the skim milk" or "skimmed milk" and "Skim milk"
I think when referred to generally, the skim milk would be just that, whole milk who's cream has been skimmed off.
"Skim Milk" however, seems to be an FDA approved milk category that defines its maximum fat content to be no greater than .5%. Typically Skim milk is not milk whose cream has been skimmed, but the result of milk being mechanically separated by a centrifugal milk separator.
Does this make sense? I am just trying to get this straight in my own head as I head into Parmesan cheesemaking.
Wayne, I just use the standard 2.5%, with my last batch it came out better than using just 2%. My GOOD books say 2.5% for the last 15 gal parm I used 5 gal whole and 10 gal 2%. I love the looks I get in the grocery store when I wheel around 15 gal milk.
Shouldn't the skim milk/no-fat/very low fat milk with added cream combination get rid of the need for calcium chloride?
No, the reason for CaCl2 is to reintroduce calcium back in that got destroyed by Pastuerization. Coincidently, if you're using UHT cream you'll definately need CaCl2 as almost everything in that cream got destroyed.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is not both the pasteurization AND the homogenization process responsible for the low quality curd-set in storebought milk?
If so: one should be able to correct one of these two problems (homogenization) by mixing cream with no-fat milk.
I do in fact get a much better curd-set when using the low-fat milk/cream combination than storebought whole milk, which does support this hypothesis.
I am only aware of heat treated milk needing CaCl2 in order to aid coagulation.
I've not heard of homogenization being a reason.
http://www.leeners.com/cheesehow2.html#store
(http://www.leeners.com/cheesehow2.html#store)
Using Store Bought Milk
Store bought milk is homogenized, which means that the cream particles (butter fat) have been mechanically broken up into microscopic particles. This is done to prevent the cream from separating from the milk. Homogenizing milk also alters the protein. Unless the cheese maker compensates for this the milk will not make a satisfactory curd for hard cheese. When making cottage cheese or any hard cheeses with store bought milk you must prepare a special mixture. The basic recipe is 1 part heavy cream to 7 parts skim milk. All of the recipes given here are formulated to use store bought milk and the instructions for preparing this mixture are given in each recipe when necessary.
Calcium Chloride (optional)
Another step used to compensate for the processing of store bought milk is the addition of calcium chloride prior to adding rennet to the cheese mixture. The addition of calcium chloride will help restore the altered milk protein and aid in the development of a quality curd. Specific instructions for using calcium chloride are given with each recipe.
This does seem to be confirmed by research:
http://jds.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/17/7/519 (http://jds.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/17/7/519)
http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/38/1/80 (http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/38/1/80)
Interesting.
I have much to read. Thanks for the link.
I did come across this in your pdf file:
"In these experiments calcium chloride did not restore the curd tension values
lost by homogenizing even when added at more than double the rate permitted
by federal standards for eheesemaking." in the PDF.
So, I'm not sure what the deal it..
I see your point that Homogenization reduces the strength of a curd. But it kinda looks like rennet is not the answer there. It looks like adding cream or concentrating the milk solids is the answer in the case of homogenization.
I'm still reading. (and pretending to actually work......)
What it comes down to is there is lots of disinformation out there. All I've read in books says that during the pastuerization process the calcium ges destroyed so you use CaCl2 to restore it to aid in coagulation, but these same books say that to use it with goats milk as it's naturally homogenized out of the udder....so who knows.
I'm not going to go the Skim/cream route as I'm back where I started price wise, probably more. I went to costco last week to pick up half and half for my stilton which is used in conjunction with whole milk and they don't even sell cream. So buying cream in a store in the quantities I use would get real expensive.
It doesn't matter to me as i'm using past/homogenzied so I have to use CaCl2 no matter what. I would like to know the REAL answer someday.
P.S. Welcome to the forum. You're new here and don't know me yet, which means some beeman types might take this post as defensive and argumentative..it's not. I just didn't sleep at all last night and my wits are not about me to make sure this post didn't come out sounding rude, so I appologive in advance.
P.P.S. In those articles it mentions Curd Tension, is that when the curds get scared because I'm coming up behind them with a knife?
Beeman-type. That made me laugh.
However, the reference may not be widely-understood.
Beeman was a former forum member who was a bit of an internet troll. He was opinionated to a fault, and liked to argue and generally cause problems. Essentially, his deal was if you disagreed with him, or had a different take on a subject, it was time to start an over-the-top flame ware.
People do not take themselves too seriously here, you will not find any hardcore experts in this forum, but most try really really hard.
The great thing about this forum is that most folks here are genuinely looking for advice or trying to otherwise advance their understanding of cheesemaking. They are also very open to providing assistance to those trying something new.
So, taking Carters response in the proper light, we do not seek to disregard an opinion here, but rather to refine our own.
Quote from: Wayne Harris on February 17, 2009, 04:34:47 PM
People do not take themselves too seriously here, you will not find any hardcore experts in this forum, but most try really really hard.
The great thing about this forum is that most folks here are genuinely looking for advice or trying to otherwise advance their understanding of cheesemaking. They are also very open to providing assistance to those trying something new.
This has been exactly my experience since blundering in here - gosh, less than 2 weeks ago! I have never before found such a friendly and helpful forum :D
I could be wrong but I do believe the skimmed milk in the recipes is raw milk with the cream poured off. It probably still has more fat than store bought whole milk but I will have to send some emails and see what I can find out for sure.
Quote from: stuartjc on February 09, 2009, 12:48:15 PM
see under "dry and cream" here: http://schmidling.com/milk.htm (http://schmidling.com/milk.htm)
I got the skim milk because it's cheaper!
Yes but Non-fat dry milk is not the same as skim milk. The process is quite different.
Also Vitamin-D milk is also called whole milk. In nearly all cases, fresh milk has Vitamin A and D added to it as part of the process. Some is to replace the vitamins destroyed in the processing, however it is also added for the same reason as iodine is added to salt, to ensure that Americans get a sufficient supply of those vitamins by including them in something nearly everyone eats.
This forum has been a great source of information and it causes me to think an ask questions about things that I took for granted. Thanks
<edit> reading the linked article it seems that CaCl speeds up the coagulation of the milk but not the strength of the curds. However they were able to increase the curd strength by adding non-fat dry milk to increase the concentration of the milk.
Interesting... That should also increase the yield per gallon.
Lots to think about..... :)
Craig
The loaves of cheese I have made from store bought skim milk and store bought 1% milk have, after proper aging, been some of my all time favorites. But if they aren't aged at ~50F for a couple months, they are nasty. I also have loaves made from raw that I personally have skimmed. They are still aging, but look and smell great.
The only kind of milk I have had problems with is the local dairies Whole milk. Won't ever use it again.