Sticky rind on semi-hard and hard cheeses

[lota]

Hola from Spain!
I'm so happy to have found this forum.
I've been doing homemade cheese occasionally for a few years. The last 2-3y I was just doing bries and vegan cheeses.
It was almost 3 years since I didn't do a pressed cheese (I was not super successful with them, for the same problem I'll explain here).
Please, find attached the pictures of my Emmentaler Yeah, I know it looks bad 
It's a 10 days old Emmentaler, now at the room temperature phase. I followed the cheesemaking recipe for Swiss cheese. But the specific recipe is not my problem.
My problem:
The rind has been kind of sticky for all these days.
I experienced this exact never-dry-sticky-rind in the past. Other hard cheeses I made were contaminated with the exactly same yeast-bacteria that keeps me in the loop of this greasy rind with rancid smell (b. linens, I guess). The smell is definitely strong and not good, it's yeasty-rancid.
I don't know how to achieve those golden mate dry rinds that people get in just a few days!.
Thinks I have done that may be right or wrong:
- after the brine, I didn't let the cheese dry at room temperature. I put it in the wine cave at 13ºC for a week and changed the underneath wet paper 2-3 times a day.
- The first days the cheese was full of mold spots. I think the cave was too humid. I took the molds out with a knife and covered the spots with salt.
Today I've washed the rind with white wine and the smell has improved - the molds have kind of been reduced.

Please, can someone tell me other tricks to achieve those dry mate rinds you get? I know it's difficult to say without knowing more details, but any idea / comment will be appreciated so I can continue experimenting.
Thank you very much

[GortKlaatu]

Sounds like your cave is too humid.  Do you know the % humidity?

[River Bottom Farm]

I agree too humid. The wash you used was it just straight wine or was there something else mixed with it? I always end up with yeast problems in a cheese if I use wine in a wash unless I use enough salt and water in the wash to encourage b linens and kill off the yeast. Your cheese looks to have an irregular shape to it. What are you using to mold that in and what kind of weight are you putting on it?

Caint remember where exactly but saw a post recently about using s bowl of salt and a little water  on one side of cheese aging fridge and a bowl of water on the other side to get a steady 76% or something hummidity even in humid climates. Something like that might help you get to a more desireable hummidity.

Here is a link to read about washing cheese to optimize b linen rinds: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10633.0.html

[Gregore]

I would suspect your curd is too wet , more vigorous stirring  , smaller cuts in the curd .   A fan can really help dry a cheese surface off,  battery powered fan can help  once it is in the cave . And what the others have already mentioned .

[lota]

Thanks to you all!

1. Cave too humid: Unfortunately my hygrometer is broke last week and I couldn't check the humidity. By now, I've tried the method @Yesterday suggests: I put 1 small jar of salt+water and one small jar of water inside the cave to try to try to balance it.
2. Wash: The wash was straight wine. I didn't want to end up with a too salty cheese. But I will follow your advice and I'll combine wine with salt.
3. B. Linens - Stinky-sticky contamination: Isn't b. linens the cause of my contamination? I assumed so because the cheese looks kind of pink-orange. The rind I would like to achieve looks like this one. Are there any tricks to do this?


4.  Wet curd:
This was the aspect of my curd before the final drain on the cheese cloth.

[GortKlaatu]

Oh yes.....that curd looks undercooked and too wet.

[Gregore]

Yes I agree , that is closer to a curd for a Brie , or even  wetter . 

I wonder if your acid curve was off (slow)  what was the curd like before cutting , how did it act when you first stirred ...... did the curd shatter quickly apron first stir? 

Could you post the recipe , something is off

[lota]

The general procedure I followed was the one described on this recipe: http://www.cheesemaking.com/SwissBaby.html
But the amount of ingredients I took them from a spanish blog: 5L of fresh milk, 4ml rennet, 4ml Calcium Chloride, 1/8 tsp Propionic Shermanii, 3 kinfe points of Mesophilic culture.
The curd felt soft to me.
After stirring them, the curds were not defined at first, the whole mass seemed as a fresh cheese. It took 30-40 minutes for a little whey to show off separated from the curds. After taking off part of the whey and exchanging it with hot water, curds started to settle to the bottom and then that's when I put them on the cheesecloth.
Sorry for my language skills.
I'm new to ph control and the science of cooking the curds, and I'm very interested on your opinions! Any reference or comment will be appreciated.
Thanks

[Andrew Marshallsay]

That looks like a lot of Calcium Chloride and rennet to me - more than twice what I would use.
The rennet will vary according to strength and, for that reason, I look towards the manufacturers recommended dosages for that.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "knife-point", but your amount of culture may be too low. Again, I would tend to look to the manufacturers recommended dosages as there is variation between manufacturers.

[lota]

Thanks, André. The calcium chloride and the mesophilic cultures were in the dosage specified by the manufacturer. Regarding the rennet, it's 1,5 more than the specified by the manufacturer. The guy that wrote the recipe in spanish is a someone I for his expertize, and he buys his ingredients at the same place I do, that's why I followed his instructions

[Raz21]

You can let the cheese to dry outside for a few hours before placing it in the cave if your cave is too wet. I would avoid paper under the cheese. Wood mats are also not the best option. Mold can easily grow between the mat wood strings and spared on the cheese. The best option is wood boards. They can be easily maintained.

It is advised to add wine brine just after the rind have been formed and stabilized. That would be somewhere around 2-3 weeks. If you add it before, you will have yeast issues.
You cave is definitely too humid for this kind of cheese.
I saw the photos with the curd. As others have said, the curd was too wet.

1.   When is the last time that you have sanitized your wine cave?
2.   How often are you washing the rind?
3.   Did you do the flocculation test?
4.   How have you checked when to cut the curd?
5.   Did you allow time for the DVI culture to grow? At what temp? For how long?
6.   What IMCU/strength your rennet has? What rennet is it? (the rennet can be off, have you checked the date?)
7.   When you say fresh milk, you say raw milk or pasteurized and homogenized milk?

[Dorchestercheese]

I made that cheese with that recipe and I used about 6ml of calf rennet to 4 gallons of raw milk it flocculated at 14 minutes. I cut at 45 minutes. You should have plenty of rennet for 5L or 2 gallons.
But it does seem not set to me from your pic.

[Gregore]

The curd should be firm enough that it all sticks together in a clump when squeezed in the palm of your hand but should still fall back part  into curd crumbles when poked apart  with your finger.

This is when the calcium has reached the point at which the curd should be molded ,

I  still think your milk did not get acid enough before the rennet was added , which caused a weaker curd than normal thus wetter so it needed more cooking than the recipe called for in order to remove moisture and time to drop ph.  .  Added to that the curd washing which extends time needed drop ph.

If you make it again , cook until the curd is as I suggest

[lota]

Thank you Gregore & Yesterday! Yes, the curd seemed not set to me too. I don't know what could cause that. Bad qualityt rennet ot too much rennet? The fact that I added the calcium at the same time as the rennet? I'll definitely buy ph strips. If there's any lecture you would recommend me to learn more about the PH curve, I would appreciate it a lot. By now, I'm reading all I can in the forum.

Raz, thanks for showing up!
1.   When is the last time that you have sanitized your wine cave?
I sanitized it just before putting the emmentaler. I sanitize it often with sodium bicarbonate and a sterilizing product. I'll buy now an alcoholic product to clean it deeper.
2.   How often are you washing the rind?
The last 4 days with vinegar, water and salt once a day to eliminate that disgusting rancid smell.
3.   Did you do the flocculation test?
Actually, no idea of what is that!
4.   How have you checked when to cut the curd?
I pinch it with a knife and elevate the knife. When the curd is more or less firm to not fall down the knife, I cut (aprox 60 minutes after putting the rennet). Sorry for my very bad description in english
5.   Did you allow time for the DVI culture to grow? At what temp? For how long?
32ºC during an entire hour
6.   What IMCU/strength your rennet has? What rennet is it? (the rennet can be off, have you checked the date?)
It's a calf rennet that one woman packs and sells in her shop. No info about the IMCU, but she suggests to use 1ml for 2L of past. milk. He has a close collaborator, though, that is the one who shared the emmentaler recipe in spanish, and he suggested 4ml for 5L of past. milk. Yes, my rennet is some months out of day. Say no more! I've already bought a new one
7.   When you say fresh milk, you say raw milk or pasteurized and homogenized milk?
Pasteurized! Sorry, in Spain we say "leche fresca" - pasteurized- and "leche cruda" - raw-.

Thank you. Viva Cheeseforum!

[Raz21]

Hello Iota,

Good video on pH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rfZSvRi-EE&t=4s

What I would advice is to brush the cheese to remove the mold/yeast (if the cheese is not too soft). Then let them dry outside 60-70% RH. Also, check the vinegar that you use. I stopped using mine when I read the ingredients. Make sure it is just vinegar.

You can use a brine with salt, CaCl2, and water until the rind is stable. Add more salt until you stabilize your rind and then decrees the salt content gradually. When stable, you can add wine.

Check info about flocculation on the forum. It will help a lot.

Regarding the rennet. Definitely, change it. The rennet can be the cause of bad coagulation.
1 ml for 2 L seems a bit too much. I use a single strength rennet, calf, with 150 IMCU and use about 1 ml for 4-5 L of milk and I have a flocculation of about 12 min. The flocculation test will give you the best idea of how your rennet is working and if the enzymes are still doing their job. Too much rennet will make the cheese bitter.

Hope that this helps. All the best!