Author Topic: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd  (Read 2705 times)

Offline lrunyenj

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short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« on: July 14, 2019, 02:18:24 AM »
I'm trying to make Feta type cheese using cows milk and Gianaclis Caldwell's recipe.  I tried it about a year ago using commercial low temp pasteurized milk with CaCl2 added.  I noticed that the floc time was shorter than expected (10 min) but curd was still weak at 1 hour (not a great clean break).  I went ahead and finished and it was not a failure, but I think I can do better.  Fast forward 1 year.  I have access to raw milk.  It sat in by fridge for 5 days and then I pasteurized using feature on my instant pot and then added CaCl2 back since I has stored for 5 days.    I also changed from Flora Danica to MA4000.  This time floc time was even shorter 6 min! but curd was still weak at 1 hour.  I am trying to puzzle through the science of why I would have a super short floc but still have fragile, weak curd.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

River Bottom Farm

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Re: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2019, 02:42:56 AM »
If you trust your milk source I would try without pasteurizing. The pasturization can cause protein damage that can result it weak curds. The fast floc is usually just a matter of learning your milk and adjusting rennet as needed. Floc will vary depending on acidity of milk as well as the milk itself. Personally I use this recepie: https://fiascofarm.com/dairy/feta.html
It calls for goat milk but I have used it with raw cow and raw goat. I usually use mm100 or feta b culture

Offline Susan38

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Re: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2019, 04:06:12 AM »
Hi!--I'm going to chime in here even though I don't really know the answer to your question.  First--I too have had access to raw milk for several years now, and always pasteurize it myself...and with all of  my cheese makes using rennet, I have never had the problem of weak fragile curd (and I actually use the 161- degree-in-15-seconds method as I have a super quick way of cooling it down, but in theory the higher temperature could do more protein damage than the 145-degree-in-30-minutes method).  So I don't know if pasteurization *in and of itself* would be at the root of the problem.

In Caldwell's troubleshooting table, for the "Symptom:  at cutting, curd looked ready but broke into little pieces when cut or stirred", she has "Likely Causes:  pH too low or need to add calcium chloride".  Since you added CaCl, perhaps the pH was too low?

Also Caldwell's recipe calls for 1/8 teaspoon rennet per gallon of milk, while the recipe River is using calls for 1 teaspoon for 2-3 gallons of milk (which equates to 1/2 -1/3 teaspoon per gallon of milk).  Maybe it wouldn't hurt to try increasing the rennet amount a bit to see if that would rectify the problem?


Offline mikekchar

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Re: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2019, 12:53:56 PM »
The other possibility (which may not be true at all -- just exhausting the problem space) is that the curds are not weak at all.  When you first cut the curds, they are really fragile.  They don't firm up until you've stirred them for 10-15 minutes.  If one has never seen curds shattering before, it's possible that one doesn't know what to look for.  When they shatter, they really break apart into nothing, as opposed to  break into smaller pieces.  Usually when I first start stirring, I just lift the curds from the bottom to the top.  I wait until they are quite firm before I start actually stirring.

Offline lrunyenj

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Re: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2019, 02:20:43 PM »
Thanks.  These are helpful suggestions and I appreciate people taking the time to reply.

1.  I have another batch of raw milk coming my way.  I'll try same make without any pasturization to see if that makes curd less fragile.  The 6 min floc time still worries me though.  After I try that, I will use the following weeks batch of milk with past at 161F for 15 sec.  I know that the instapot pasturizatoin was much higher than than - at least 170 when I opened it. 

2. pH was 6.4 after ripening step where I added culture and waited 45 min so rennet should have worked fine .  In fact, since I got floc in 6 min, I figured rennet was working really well!

3. Curds were not shattered, just really soft.  I waited 15 min after cutting before the 20 min stir, which I did constantly.  I have attached the photo here after cutting and resting and a bit of stirring. 

Offline Susan38

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Re: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2019, 11:32:19 PM »
Well if your pasteurization temp was up at or above 170 degrees, and who knows for how long, then yes that might be an issue for a fragile curd.  Your future experiments sound right on for sleuthing out if this is an issue or not.  For the 161 degree method, it's critical to drop that temp down almost immediately...I use a sink of water where large blocks of ice in containers have been floating around in it, and I stir the milk continuously while also moving the ice water around frequently (and thus have on more than one occasion contemplated getting an automatic stirrer!).

I just remembered I made Caldwell's recipe for American-style cottage cheese awhile back, where it calls for 8-10 drops of rennet per 1 gallon of milk (that's probably a bit less than 1/8 teaspoon).  Anyway, she does say the curd is very delicate in the beginning and if you are shattering the curds, to gently shake the pot to agitate them until they have firmed up a bit.  I did make sure to treat them gently.  As I recall, they did not look much different than yours in the photo you posted.  And in my case, the resulting cottage cheese was a huge success.

My gut feeling is you're not too far off track.  So, let us know how this batch turned out at the end! 

Offline mikekchar

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Re: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2019, 06:28:59 AM »
Those curds look just about right to me.  I've used both high temp pasteurised milk (75 C for 15 seconds) and low temp (63 C for 30 min).  Granted the latter was non-homogenised as well.  The high temp curds are definitely a bit softer, but I wouldn't say that they are a *lot* softer.  I lack experience, but I didn't really feel I was overly hampered by the curds.

I would say that in my experience, for the first 5 minutes of stirring, the curds are *very* soft.  For example, it takes no effort at all to cut them with the metal spoon I use and inevitably many get cut just through the act of stirring.  So my goal for those 5 minutes are simply to stop them from matting at the bottom.  By about 15 minutes of stirring, they are setting up and I can grab one and feel some resistance between my fingers.  It takes at least 30 minutes more (say 50 minutes after cutting) for the curds to be a consistent texture throughout.  But that depends a lot on the temperature of the vat and how fast the flocc time was.

Now, 6 minute flocc time is *very* fast.  The fastest flocc time I've had was 8 minutes and that was with a thermophilic starter at 42 degrees that had acidified for an hour.  I could feel the curd hardening *as I cut it*.  So I wonder... perhaps your idea of flocc time is different than others.  I know I had some problem with that at first.

Flocculation is the time when the milk starts to coagulate.  So my initial thought was as soon as I see it coagulating, then it is flocculating.  This is probably technically true.  However, I realised that when people are referring to "flocc time" with a multiplier, they are looking at a different point -- it's the point where the milk has coagulated enough that a floating plastic tub can no longer rotate.  The trick here is that when that happens depends heavily on the mass of the tub.  Something that is more massive (think heavier) will have more momentum than something that is less massive (think lighter). 

So I confused myself a couple of times.  Originally I used a fairly large tub (say 5 cm across).  Then I used a cap from a milk jug.  Of course the cap seemed to show flocc time earlier, because it's less massive and requires less gelling to get it to stop rotating.  So the technique is hard to communicate between different people.  However, if you always use the same technique with the same item, then you can adjust your multiplier to match (generally speaking).

To make it a bit easier to relate, for the scale that people are generally talking about, at 1.6x the flocc time, the curds can be cut, but are super messy.  For you that means that if your 6 min flocc time is the same as other people's flocc time, then at about 9 and a half minutes, you will be able to cut the curds and see the cut.  At 2x the flocc time, you cut the curds and it's pretty clean, but white fat oozes into the cut.  So that would be 12 minutes for you.  At 3x the flocc time, you cut the curds and only clear whey goes into the cut (18 minutes for you).  At 3.5x the flocc time (21 minutes), it's basically bouncy castle time.  You can press down on the surface of the curds and it will separate from the side of the pot without splitting.  (Note: times are based on my limited experience and what I've seen in various Youtube videos... I'd love to get feedback from others who have different experiences).  Some people don't call it as flocculated unless when you remove the tub, an impression in the milk is left.  This usually happens quite a bit later for me, so even these may be incorrect.

What's likely is that the same thing that happened to me, happened to you.  Your 6 minute flocc time was actually about 15-18 minute flocc time and your 45 minute curd cutting is about 2.5-3x flocc time.  But again, it really doesn't matter as long as it's consistent.  If you can measure your flocc time as 6 minutes and your cut time is 8x flocc time, that's absolutely fine as long as it never changes.

Offline Susan38

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Re: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2019, 09:11:48 PM »
Mike--thanks for discussing the ins-and-outs of "Tips and Tricks of Flocc Time Calculations"...I have been wondering about this method, as thus far I've been using the "Clean Break" method which, with the milk I am using, seems to correlate well with general recipe time guidelines.  Of course, since I have yet to really master any of my cheesemaking, I have been wondering if using the flocc time calculations would help me to improve my results.  Calculating flocc times sounds so neat and tidy and mathematical and perfect...but then as you reported, there is subjectivity in the method depending on various factors.  Maybe the clean break method isn't really that much more subjective by comparison.  As you said, consistency in whatever you are doing is key.

Offline lrunyenj

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Re: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2019, 12:52:04 PM »
@mikekchar - thanks for your very nice description on floc time! 

AnnDee

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Re: short flocculation floc time but weak fragile curd
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2019, 04:03:52 PM »
The easiest to see if your milk has already floculated is by getting a glass of luke warm water and drop your renneted milk in there and see if it forms specks of curds in the water.
I used to think that flocc time is when the whole milk visibly gel until a course I took. The curd should not be hard, not all hard curd is good. If you make Grana style for example, you don’t want hard curd, it should be soft so it is easier to cut into rice size abd easier for whey to be expelled from the curd.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 01:23:23 PM by AnnDee »