Author Topic: Important information in a recipe (ranty?)  (Read 2426 times)

Offline mikekchar

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Important information in a recipe (ranty?)
« on: August 01, 2019, 01:54:02 AM »
I've made a number of cheeses now with rennet (apparently about 20 according to my notes).  I was going through my notes the other day trying to get a better understanding of what I was doing.  However, I was struck by a couple of things that was hampering my analysis.

First, most recipes give you no clue about the expected yield for the cheese.  The recipe calls for 8 litres of milk.  You do some stuff.  You get cheese.  I made a reblochon last weekend to make up for my disaster the last time.  One of the things I wanted to do was to reduce the moisture content of the cheese.  Due do basic stupidity on my part, I ended up making a cheese with *exactly* the same moisture content of the last cheese: a 14.7% yield in both cases.  To calculate this, I measure the weight of the milk before I start and the weight of the cheese after salting (and just before it goes into the cave).  The higher the yield, the higher the moisture content.  The crescenza I made yesterday had a yield of 17.9% -- very high moisture content.  The second Caerffili I made was 10.7% -- quite hard.

The thing is, I would really like to look at a recipe for a reblochon and find out what kind of yield they *expect* to get.  That way I can see if I need to cut my curds smaller, or cook longer, or whatever.  Without this information, I don't really have any idea what the recipe author was doing other than vague descriptions about how clean their break was, how big they cut their curd, how long they stirred the curd, what the acidity of the cheese was when it was draining...  I can't duplicate those things exactly, so it's much better to understand what they expect the end product is going to be like so I can troubleshoot it myself.

Similarly, I was reading about a type of cheese where one of the defining characteristics is that they add a lot of starter culture (I forget what the type of cheese is).  So I looked up recipes.  What did I see?  1/4 tsp in 2 gallons of milk.  But what does that actually tell me?  Nothing as it turns out.

I was looking at my remaining supply of MA4001.  By guestimate I think I have only about 1/3 of the original volume that I purchased.  Bulk DVI cultures are usually sold in DCU units or U units.  1 DCU innoculates 25 gallons while 1 U innoculates 1 gallon.  My package held 1 DCU originally, so it can innoculate 100 litres of milk at normal addition rates.  But that 1 DCU weighs only 1.6 grams for my package!  The strength of the starter culture is highly variable (like close to an order of magnitude difference) and so the 1 DCU might weigh 1 gram or it might weigh 5 grams or whatever.  That's why they sell them in DCU or U units and not grams (or volume).  I've used 2/3 of my 1 DCU, which should have innoculated 66 litres of milk and yet my notes indicate that I've only used 37 litres of milk!  I'm using almost twice as much starter culture as the manufacturer recommends on average!

Getting back to the recipe, when you see 1/4 tsp in 2 gallons of milk, that is a completely *useless* measurement.  You might as well say, "put some starter culture in".  Jim Wallace has some recipes where he uses yogurt instead of DVI cultures.  In those he adds 1.5% of the initial milk volume as yogurt.  This works out to about 15 grams per litre of milk (give or take -- I haven't actually measured it).  I was thinking about my measurement problem here as well.  1.6 grams of starter culture innoculates 100 litres of milk.  I want to innoculate 4 liters of milk.  That 0.16 grams of start culture.  I can't measure that.  Like literally, that is not a thing I can measure, whether volume or weight (maybe if I was a drug dealer, I'd have a scale that could measure that, but alas I am just a lowly computer programmer).  I started to think that the *only* way I can have any semblence of repeatability in my recipes is if I make yogurt from the starter culture and add that -- then I have a measurable amount.  The variability of viable cells in the yogurt is almost certainly going to be much, much less than the variability of measurement for adding the DVI itself.

But with the recipe, I wish that recipe writers would write (perhaps in parentheses) the percentage of "normal" innoculation amounts that they are using, rather than some stupid meaningless volume.  That way I can see, "OK.  80% of the normal amount"  or "120% of the normal amount".

And continuing with this theme... Rennet.  As far as I can tell rennet comes in a very wide variety of strengths: 60 IMCU, 100 IMCU, 200 IMCU, 400 IMCU, 550 IMCU, 600 IMCU... and that's only ones I've seen in various online shops.  "Single strength rennet" is 200 IMCU (why not scale it around 100 IMCU???  I don't know).  I am led to believe that with 200 IMCU rennet, 2 ml will coagulate 10 litres of milk.  1 US tsp is 4.9 mls.  This means that 1 tsp will coagulate 24.5 liters.  Cheesemaking.com sells vegetable rennet tablets where 1 tablet will coagulate 18 liters of milk.  Fromase sells 2 kinds of tablets (at least): Ones that will set 25 liters of milk per tablet and ones that will set 50 liters of milk per tablet.

I frequently see recipes for 1/4 tablet of rennet or 1/8 of a tsp of liquid rennet.  Some recipes *should* call for more or less rennet, but it's absolutely impossible to tell how much rennet the author is *actually* using because you have no idea what kind of rennet they are using.  Again, I'd love to see recipes that say "80% of the normal amount of rennet", etc.  In homebrewing it is now (thankfully) common to see recipes use "alpha acid units" for hops rather than weight or volume of hops.  We could do the same thing here.  If you need 2 ml of 200 IMCU rennet, then why not say "400 rennet units" (2 x 200 IMCU)?

And I'm not finished yet :-)  Because I don't have access to a pH meter, I'm a bit hampered with really dialing in my cheese.  Even still, I'd be super grateful for people putting pH targets in their recipes (luckily that's happening more and more).  But even if you can't do that, at least give an indication for the flocc time and multiplier, or the equivalent (coagulation time and description of desired break sloppiness??).  Even something subjective is better than *nothing at all*.  "Wait 40 minutes and if the break isn't clean enough for you wait another 10 minutes" is literally useless information.

Let me explain a bit.  The speed at which the milk coagulates will be governed largely by 1) the amount of rennet 2) the temperature of the milk 3) the amount of dissolved calcium in the milk 4) the acidity of the milk.  Hopefully we can figure out #1 by specifying it better in the recipe.  #2 is always present in recipes that I've seen.  #3 is also usually badly specified, but I've never actually heard of recipes that intentionally limit calcium, or intentionally increase it.  I think in virtually all situations you can expect your recipe to have 100% of the dissolved calcium, whatever that might be -- so we can assume it is a constant.  The *only* thing that is unknown (if you don't have a pH meter, or a way to titrate the acid) is the acidity of the milk.

If you give flocc time and multiplier targets you are giving a lot of information -- even if the flocc time is kind of fuzzy because we don't have a really standard way to measure it.  The multiple is telling you how sloppy you are expecting the break to be.  1.6x is practically liquid (take a look at some professional Parmesan producers in videos on Youtube... it's amazing how sloppy the "break" is).  3.5x is really quite hard.  2.0x is leaking a bit of fat into the whey.  That kind of thing.   It doesn't really matter how you describe it to yourself, it's only important that you have consistency between *your* measure of flocc time and *your* perception of break.  Then if the expectation of break type and multiplier is at least close between you and the original author, you have some idea of what they were intending.

Now, the thing is that this give you a pretty good idea of the acidity of the milk compared to the author's expectations.  If you are aiming for an 18 minute flocc time and a 2.5x multiplier (45 minute total coagulation), if you find that you have a 13 minute flocc time and hit what you expect to be your target texture at 33 minutes, then you know that your milk is considerably more acidic than the author's and you will probably want to adjust the cooking temperature to compensate.  If it's the other way around, then maybe you will need to up the temp a bit to get a little more acid development (or alternatively, maybe next time think about ripening the milk longer).

But seriously the advice of "Wait x minutes and if the break isn't good, then wait some more" is essentially saying, "We're going to be making cheese today.  What kind of cheese?  We'll find out when we're done!"  OK, perhaps that's a bit harsh :-)  But definitely I feel like this when I read some recipes or what some videos.

One last comment about pH.  Earlier I ranted about yield.  One of the reasons why I think it is a vital part of any recipe is that if you can get yourself to a point where you know the kind of yield you are likely to get by looking at the curds in the vat, you can estimate the pH of the curds simply by how they are developing as you cook them.  Assuming that you stir similarly to the recipe author, then the rate at which whey is expelled depends on curd cut size, temperature and acidity.  With experience, you should be able to get to a point where you can guestimate how to cut the curds and stir them to achieve the yield that you want.  If you find that the curds are developing faster or slower, it's because the pH is moving faster or slower.  But without knowing what your target is, then you're pretty much lost.  You just have to hope that the curds are developing the way the author intended.  What's worse is that even when you are done, you have no idea if the result is the same as the author's!

OK... Enough ranting :-)  If you manage to get through that book, I'd appreciate feedback and insight.

Offline Susan38

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Re: Important information in a recipe (ranty?)
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2019, 12:23:24 AM »
I don't have the answers to all of your questions, but here are a few of my thoughts on your post.  Firstly, I have had some of your same questions, and have posted similar questions about the differences between cheese cultures, of which the answers one seems to have to dig for in bits and pieces.  So I share in your frustration the amount of time and energy one has to invest in pulling the pieces of the puzzle together.  Frankly, I don't consider your (or my) questions "ranting", it's more of a "deep thirst for additional information".

I think most recipes are geared for the average home cheese maker, many of whom don't care about the intricate details of it...and may be quite happy with the results they get with the somewhat vague recipes.  Also, the recipe authors I think are simply documenting the exact things they do to get what they consider desired results.  As you well know, specific environmental factors can drastically change the outcome even when exactly following a recipe.  So even if one has the "perfect, detailed recipe" with all of the pH markers, culture measurements, etc. listed...if your cheese making environment is different than the recipe authors, I think it would be fairly easy to end up with a very different result.

Then, what exactly is the desired result?  That too is very subjective.  What I consider a great cheese might not be liked by others...personal preference comes into play a lot.

It would be nice to have more specifics in recipes, and maybe some day there will be recipes out there that will provide more detailed information, but this still might not guarantee a "desired result".  An example is of Caldwell, in her mozzarella section, saying something to the effect of...."no matter what your pH meter reads, do not attempt to stretch the curd unless it passes the stretch test"...in other words, some of the targets might be right on and yet there is some other (unknown?) factor that is preventing the desired process to occur.

I think overall that cheese making is a blend of science and artistry...you are asking for more science-specific details of the process (and I sure would like to have more too!), but at some point , especially for the home cheese maker, the mysteries of biology and artistry and environmental conditions and inexperience come in to play, to blend their magic for the final outcome.  (Anyway, that is what I am telling myself when my cheese comes out different than expected).   :) 


Offline scasnerkay

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Re: Important information in a recipe (ranty?)
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2019, 12:18:28 AM »
I appreciate your comments and hear your frustrations! Been there myself. I still feel there is so much to learn and explore in this process!

I probably have made cheese a few hundred times now, over about 10 years. Over this time I have developed more of a "feel" for what is happening during the make, and have less need for measurements. I did keep really good spread sheets at first, but am not so good with that now. I don't think I have ever tried to calculate the moisture or fat levels in a cheese make. I do know that when the yield is higher, the cheese needs to be eaten younger, and when the yield is lower, I can age out longer! And I have gotten more accepting of what the result is, even if it was not what I expected. It is all such a dance of pH and texture, and trying to get the timing on target for each!

Some things that have really helped me enjoy this journey:

1) Measuring liquid rennet by ml rather than teaspoon. I use a 3ml syringe without a needle. I vary between animal and vegetable rennet, choosing animal when I am making a cheese I would like to age more than 9 months. I am not sure there is logic in my choice however, having done side by side comparison of makes made with each. I usually use 1.5 ml of calf rennet for 2 gallons, or .75 ml microbial rennet for the same volume. When I do a 4 gallon make it is double those measurements. It is  a straight linear amount. The first time I use a new container of rennet, I am sure to note the flocculation time and I keep track of the amount used per volume of milk, and make small changes on the next make. There can also  be a seasonal difference in the milk. Or a make which has an extended ripening might use less rennet because of the pH being lower.

2) Measuring flocculation. Huge difference!! And much more self confidence in my ability to know when to cut the curd. I do check clean break as well, and sometimes go beyond the suggested time.

3) Putting my hands into the curd! I usually do the initial gentle stirring with my hand, and I use my hands to break up any clumping as I go along. I find that I can get a sense of how firm the curd is by gently squeezing the curd, as I get nearer to the end of the cooking. And I use my hand to do the texture testing of squeezing a clump together to see how well it comes together and how it breaks back into curd. It is also useful to feel if there are cool or hot spots in the vat.

4) Using my mouth! I use my tongue to assess firmness of the curd, and how it breaks, and how moist it still is in the center.

5) Doing the same make over and over and over. Really the only way to become familiar with expectations and how subtle changes in the make process can affect the outcome.

6) Getting a pH meter! This was a really important help. I do appreciate the science part of cheesemaking! Without a close by mentor I think it is really difficult to know what to do when. Presently I am most concerned with starting pH (because the milk I use is raw and seasonal), draining pH, and salting pH. I do believe in tasting as well, but find that much harder to assess. I clean and calibrate the pH meter consistently. And if it is giving me a measurement that seems "off" according to what I expect, I clean and re-calibrate again.
The amount of culture added to the milk at the start of the make, can really influence the progression of the acid development, and I think I would have a hard time without the pH meter. I do know about how much culture I need to add with the milk I am using, but sometimes it just goes much faster than I expected. Starting milk pH, vat and room temperatures can also make a difference.

7) Accepting that the outcome is what was meant to be, and if it is really good, try to remember what I did that made it so! Note keeping is a really good idea! Letting go of some of my perfectionist tendencies has allowed me to enjoy the process much more!
Susan

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Re: Important information in a recipe (ranty?)
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2019, 11:59:05 PM »
Mike I hear your frustrations! I tend to avoid any recepies  that don't include floc times and pH points. The main problem though is the variability of the key ingredient: MILK! As you well know the protein/fat/ water/ bacterial load in any milk will vary from one animal to next and from season to season. The same cheese with the same make parameters can have different yield results depending on what the animal ate that day and what direction she cocked her tail that day during milking.  The only way to standardize a cheese recepie is to use key ph measurements as well as floc times to reach the desired goal in the end and tweak the recepie to your milk you are using from one make to the next to get the end result. As for using yield as a key measurement of moisture content I'm not sure that will get you anywhere as you may have higher or lower protein and fat content in the milk you are using compared to someone else. For end moisture content you can likely get that info from an existing cheese label. Most cheese shows a moisture content on the packaging that should get you close.

Offline Susan38

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Re: Important information in a recipe (ranty?)
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2019, 04:03:30 AM »
Quote
The only way to standardize a cheese recepie is to use key ph measurements as well as floc times to reach the desired goal in the end and tweak the recepie to your milk you are using from one make to the next to get the end result.

River,  I like this sentence...and it was timely for me to read it, as I just recently found out that some of my cheese make issues were in fact due to the milk.  I had previously been discounting the subject of variability in milk, instead focusing on practicing technique, and thinking my inexperience was the reason things were off.  Well, inexperience is still the reason some things are still off, I'm sure, but now I know that milk variability is also coming into play.

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Important information in a recipe (ranty?)
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2019, 09:36:40 AM »
This is a super good point.  I definitely need some way of measuring acid.  Having given away 2 pH meters in my life (moving and didn't have an easy way to ship them), I'm actually thinking of going lower tech -- titratable acid.  It will make me feel like a mad scientist too, which is a super big plus.  The only thing I'm wondering about is how to measure the acidity of the curd -- I'm guessing that whey expelled from the curd will have approximately the same acidity...  Cheesemaking.com has a kit for $20 (which probably has a massive margin to make up for the fact that they will probably only ever sell one -- to me ;-) ) -- I'm guessing I can get the chemicals much cheaper somewhere else eventually.

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Re: Important information in a recipe (ranty?)
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2019, 04:57:07 PM »
Yes the whey at the surface is close to the curd. The main thing is to measure the same way and same points in the make on each make so you have a base line measurement and can adjust as you go.