Author Topic: Raw milk , rennet amount, flocculation times  (Read 2092 times)

Offline Zapacat

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Raw milk , rennet amount, flocculation times
« on: May 12, 2020, 08:33:55 PM »
Hello,

Ive been working with my A1/A2, A/B, A/B Jersey (raw) milk for a year now and am still trying to figure it out.

Lately I decided to try and get more sciencey and use flocculation times rather than just timing and checking for a clean break. So far Ive done it twice.
The first time I used a milk jug cap and the second time a small bowl (because the second time I couldn't find the cap).
First time FP was 11 minutes and the second time 8 minutes. Both times I waited until there was an indent on the curd rather than just stopped spinning. The 8 minute FP seemed right because when I checked to curd at 24 mins (based on a 3x flocc) it gave me a clean break. But since that time to cut was much shorter than what was expected (recipes said to expect 40-45 min setting time) Im not sure what effects "early" cutting might have on the overall cheese.

Ive been searching the forum and came across @mikekchar's explanation of visual interpretations of flocc point which was very helpful but left me more confused about my own milk and how to use it. I would have assumed the heavier bowl should have resulted in a longer time to flocc point but it seems it was the opposite.

In order to straighten this out in my head can people help answer these questions?

1. raw milk - Ive read you can reduce the amount of rennet and found some references to a 40-50% reduction for goats milk - is this the same general guideline for cow's milk?

2. from what Ive read, ideal flocculation point is sort of around 12 mins - what happens when its short and so you cut earlier than what is generally thought to be the time you should cut at? Not enough time for acidity to develop, or means over-renneting which can result in bitterness? Something more?

3. can I make some straight line assumptions on rennet reduction based on short FP  ie if my FP is 8 mins instead of 12 should I be reducing rennet by approx 33%?

2. since I have 1 cow, and her milk changes with stage of lactation and season, will her flocculation point time can change as well? I can work backward with the visuals @mikekchar mentioned (loved the bouncy castle analogy) but if the FP is going to drift on me throughout lactation then there might not be much point in finding it or at least knowing I might need to recalculate it every so often? Anyone who uses raw milk, and especially with a single cow have any experience in this?

Thank you for any wisdom!
Teresa


Offline mikekchar

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Re: Raw milk , rennet amount, flocculation times
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2020, 01:03:47 AM »
Ha ha!  I can't even remember what I wrote :-)  There is always the chance that it was rubbish ;-)

As you say, waiting until there is an indent it the best way to go.  Otherwise it depends a lot on the size of the thing you are spinning (larger things will have more torque and will spin more easily than smaller things).  I think the key here is that it doesn't really matter when you declare FP to have happened -- as long as its consistent.  You can adjust your multiplier to match.

But you might be wondering, how do you follow a recipe if your FP is different than the author's FP (and therefore requiring a different multiplier)?  For me, I think you need to get into the logic of the recipe, rather than following the directions.  Quite a few people make cheese with the idea that there is only one point where they would like to cut the curds.  But this is not really the case for traditional cheese making.  For some cheeses, you want to cut the curd when it is less firm and for others you want to cut it when it is more firm.  This is what the flocculation time and multiplier are describing.

The flocculation time just describes how fast the curd is forming.  It's probably not the case that it's linear, but for the part of the curve that we are interested in, we can pretend that it is.  The multipler describes how hard you want the curd to be.  So cutting the curd at a multiplier of 1.6 is very sloppy, 2.5 is about normal, 3.0 is fairly hard and above that is super hard.  In some respects it doesn't matter how fast the flocculation time is: we are cutting the curd at the desired firmness no matter what.  However the curd continues to firm up even after we cut it.  So if your flocculation time is 5 minutes, your multiplier is 3, that gives you 15 minutes coagulation time.  If you do a short 15 minute stir, then that's a total of 6x the flocc time in the vat.  If your flocculation time is 15 minute and everything else is the same, then you are in the vat for 50 minutes -- only 4x the flocc time.  So likely the curds with the short flocc time will retain much more whey than the long flocc time, even though the stirring time was the same and we cut them at the same multiplier.

Also, keep in mind that the curds are acidifying the whole time.  So with the short flocc time, we're in the vat for 30 minutes and with the long flocc time, we're in the vat for 60 minutes.  The pH at draining will be *completely different*.  This can totally change how the cheese drains and even affect the final pH if you are not adjusting for that difference.  You could make a very different cheese if you do everything exactly the same and only change the flocculation time.

When I'm making cheese, I kind of have in mind that there are pH targets and moisture targets at various points.  Your goal is to do what you need to in order to hit those targets.  The recipe is less a series of steps you have to follow and more a strategic plan for how to tackle the problem.  When I'm looking at a recipe, I'm thinking, "What are they trying to accomplish and why".  That's quite tricky sometimes and requires more knowledge and experience than I can write in a post.  In fact, I'm still quite deficient in that area anyway.  But slowly over time, I try to pick up more puzzle pieces and figure out how they work.

But after having typed all that... yes, I think your plan is correct :-)  Try to adjust the rennet to hit your targets.  Keep good notes and keep adjusting.

Offline Zapacat

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Re: Raw milk , rennet amount, flocculation times
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2020, 07:21:49 PM »
Thank you!!!

Its increasingly obvious that I need a pH meter but Im waiting to bite the bullet on that until I know what my overall finances are going to do. Also the cow is going dry for 2 months so I can wait a little.

I totally agree with you about thinking about what the end result will be/what goal you are aiming for. My knowledge is minimal but slowly the lightbulbs are coming on. Im pretty sure I made a very different Caerphilly than I was supposed to because of the short flocculation point; I ended up waiting to cut the curd 10 mins longer than the point it told me I could because I didnt know how/if acidification would be affected by an "early" cut and whether I could temper that later. With no real ability for pH monitoring I was in the dark. Yes I need a meter.

I attempted a Wensleydale yesterday and cut my rennet back 20%. My flocculation point went from 8 minutes to 10.5 minutes so I think I will try a 40% reduction next time. Hopefully that will put me right about perfect. As long as her FPs dont drift. At least then there will be one aspect that I will have "mastered" (ha) and can move on to learning the next thing.

Thanks again for your thoughtful responses!
Teresa