My first post on this forum and a couple of noob questions

[InTheWoods]

It's Day 4 and all is well.  I salted the cheese late Wednesday and left it at cool room temperature for another 24 hours.  Yesterday I placed the cheese in a plastic box on top of a cheese mat with ceramic beads below (had to improvise).  Left it in the cool garage overnight, as I don't yet have a cave.

Today I flipped the cheese, drained the box, wiped it dry, and replaced everything inside.  There was about a teaspoon or two of whey which I gather is normal.  Since the storms are past and the sun is out, the garage is out of the question during the day, so I put the boxes into the fridge.  Yes, I know it's too cool until the mold comes in, but it's the best I can do for now.  I think I'll put the boxes into the garage at night and then back to the fridge during the day until the mold blooms.  Hopefully, it won't delay the mold blooming too long.

Speaking of mold, I noticed the cheese had a slimy feel to it when I flipped it, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed it's the Geo doing its thing!

I still can't figure out how to post pics here, so if one of you would care to take pity and help me out I would be grateful.  Please PM me, thanks.

Alexandra

[InTheWoods]

Ok, finally figured it out I think.

[InTheWoods]

As you can see everything went more or less according to plan, except that I had trouble cutting the curd which then disintegrated into small pieces, however I did get it into the molds and drained it.

[pickles]

Is it possible to upload pics from Google Drive to here?  I am having trouble figuring it out.

this might help:

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,51.msg111.html#msg111

Oh, I see you got it sorted.

[InTheWoods]

Five days ago I noticed the cams were getting slip skin and they had a funky ammoniated smell.  I decided that I had nothing to lose by doing an experiment, so I removed the skins and wiped off the liquid ammoniated cheese surrounding the core, dried everything off in the mini cave, placed the cheese back inside the box, and placed the box in the fridge.  The refrigerator temperature averages about 47F. 

I did not take any pics that day, sorry.  The cheeses looked like naked shiny scabby cams after I was done cleaning up the slip skin.  Some of the rind on the cheese, especially on the flat tops, was stuck firmly without any liquid cheese under it, so I left it on and did not try to remove it.

I left the top of the mini cave slightly cracked open, turned the cams once daily, and wiped the condensation out of the box every day.  Today I noticed that the mold is growing back!  If you look at the pic, the cheese in the lower left is definitely showing signs of mold growth, and the cheese directly behind it is looking matte instead of shiny.  The two cheeses on the right are still a bit shiny, but they are less shiny than before and are heading towards a matte surface appearance.  Best of all, the funky ammoniated smell is gone, and they smell good, like a cam should.

[mikekchar]

Yes, it will grow back, but if you have the same environment, the same thing will happen again.

"Skin slip" and the strong ammonia smell is caused by the mold growing too fast on the outside and producing ammonia faster than it can soak into the cheese.  Bloomy rinds get soft because of the ammonia produced.  It raises the pH and causes the proteins to have a higher affinity with water.  However, the ammonia can only soak into the center of the cheese so fast and if the mold is growing too quickly, then it will essentially build up in the outer part of the cheese causing it to go completely runny before the center has a chance to go soft.

The cure is to lower the temperature.  As soon as you have full mold coverage (or even before if it growing spottily and some areas are starting to get soft) it needs to go into the normal fridge at 4-6 C.  There the mold will grow very, very slowly allowing time for the ammonia to soak in.  To  certain degree the shape of the cheese can have an effect on this as well -- the more surface area you have for the cheese, the more ammonia the mold will produce in an amount of time and the more important it is for you to get it into low temperature aging as quickly as possible.

[InTheWoods]

Yes, I know all of that.  I have read the entire 31-page forum.

This is my first cam (and 5th cheese) and when I started out nearly 4 weeks ago I did not have the right conditions to age it.  It started out too warm.  Since then I have acquired a dedicated refrigerator for aging cheese.  In addition I did not let it dry out enough before I refrigerated it, so I think there was just too much moisture.

It is now at 8C (47F) while it grows back the rind.  I'll lower the temperature a few degrees in a day or two.

[mikekchar]

OK.  That's fine then :-)  Just to make sure you are aware, when you get that build up of ammonia, it *will* eventually soak in if you keep the cheese cool enough to stop more ammonia production.  I'm not really sure there is any advantage to taking the rind off.  Indeed, because of the very high pH, it's potentially a bit dangerous.

[InTheWoods]

In reading this section and other forums on this site I had got the impression that if I waited long enough, the liquid ammoniated cheese layer might be absorbed if the cheese is aged long enough, but as far as I can tell, nobody has done any systematic inquiries if this is so. 

Taking the rind off was just a lark to see what the cheese would do and how it would affect the development and taste as it ages.

What do you mean about the high pH being a bit dangerous?   I handled the cheese without any protection while removing the rinds and did not suffer any adverse effects.  I am an applied chemist by education and I can tell you unequivocally that high pH in and of itself is not necessarily dangerous (the same applies to low pH).  It is the concentration at pH extremes that causes damage and chemical burns.  The concentration of ammonia in cheese, while easily detectable by the human nose, is nowhere near enough concentrated to be dangerous to the human body unless consumed to a huge excess, and even then the human body has robust mechanisms in place to maintain optimal pH and remove toxins.  Also, unless said ammonia is hugely concentrated, keep in mind that ammonia is a very common naturally occurring compound and that humans and animals have evolved mechanisms that easily remove it from the body.

[Bantams]

Higher pH cheeses (near neutral pH) are at a vastly increased risk for Listeria.

[InTheWoods]

Thank you for that reminder.  I had my chemist hat on, and did not stop to consider it from a microbiological standpoint.

I do have to point out that unless there is listeria present in the environment, the elevated pH in and of itself isn't going to cause a listeria outbreak.  In addition, the Geo/Penicillium skin protects the cheese from contamination of all sorts.

[mikekchar]

It's not just listeria.  Cheese is generally not a source of food bourne illness because the cheese is fairly low moisture, fairly low pH and fairly high salt.  A cheese that has resolubilised will generally have a pH greater than 6 (i.e. basically the same as milk).  It still has salt in it, but only usually around 2% salt by weight, which is not enough to prevent spoilage.  Soft cheeses are also (by definition) fairly high moisture.  There are *lots* of things that can grow on it and make you ill.

As you say, the rind protects the cheese.  If you remove the rind, or cut the cheese, it no longer protects the cheese.  Things can grow in the paste.  That's why you should eat a soft, ripened cheese within a week or so of cutting it.

[OzzieCheese]

Hi, just though I’d pop on this thread to maybe help having made Camemberts for quite a number of years. But let me first say I throughly applaud your efforts using homemade meso culture - my first and last attempt was an unmitigated disaster. With good milk fetching a premium price all over, unless you have access to a local dairy, I felt that it was prudent to use a proper DV culture.
I have most of my “Malembert” makes documented here and it covers areas like pH, hooping, salting, maturing, signs to look out for (especially skin slip),temperature control (and you don’t need a dedicate fridge).

Check out my latest Camembert here.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,19420.0.html

There are a couple of points throughout this thread that might offer comment if I may. I won’t just dump it all at once as I would like to address each as how you can spot those conditions to avoid and maybe how to avoid them in the future.

So I’d like to start with requesting the recipe you followed also, if you would like me to continue. It took me several attempts to get this cheese consistent and the secret is accuracy.

Feel free to pm me if you wish.

[InTheWoods]

OzzieCheese!  I'm so glad you posted!  I've read this forum start to finish and several others, and I've read your posts and learned a lot from you.  Welcome back! 

It's really late here, so I'll just say right now that I think I've figured it out, it was too much moisture.  The cheese turned out edible, if a little bit bitter.  I made a second batch that was too dry  , but it tasted great if I ignored the dryness.  I will get my notes and post the recipe tomorrow, I can't remember off the top of my head whose recipe I used that first time.   Actually, I was about to make a third batch this week.  Maybe the third time will be the charm.

In between I've had a lot of success with soft lactic cheeses that are mold ripened, so hopefully I can get the cam right this time too.

[Mrtatai83]

Is it possible to upload pics from Google Drive to here?  I am having trouble figuring it out.

Yes it is possible, from google photo but you have to do a little manipulation
- in google photo, you open your image.
- right click and copy the address of the image.
- on the forum you paste it between the 2 tags "(img) (/ img)"
- and you must replace at the end of the link "? authuser = 0" by "-tmp.jpg"
example :
"(img)https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zTi8ubkOAhLz4mKYjIL6GNfOWFJfcT4lQXMggzMjF9XRHtCP-E1hQVzyVQEfkVuodO_PbirU2bQNDF2h2YIl2Tmm5et5d8EMFnWMbmHqBz80IKMY2zSQYan2HnOUHaQPTWEz7FDUVYokOLrEb6reUONJPmaDgGINU4WDxCGDUK0oRbnwQ8wXP1a0voINkjG_UzYhcBZTCppLy5yPFXktMTS-a9qkcPRQYaGQsn8caTQaRLRx48ygmU1uO8RETdrxz1KGnj_yNIZ6OAKBYK0apF0qAo77ux2yIU2CcZ7nnG6RnXM0c_thoKXpJXQIf22LY2g5ETOa0fMNJ77l6xsLyjkzeXc4f3PCsBqwuP_WNz_xj5awpw2gX0VmgjOfmEXzOSHmD4_vf8Qsp5klVWs9xyI5kWUSog9hCApzTFmqXXZ8Ezczl-lrvze5_b1pO9BYO6ozw3hzm0GRgS0XrAH7ch1BbHTyEe0LusGnesy_KSWcDzIbMniNrcF9LJk-muZrVmyeGgLqqTAQ3KtoslT36T6RRndjqnwMKAgeEW51rmJAjnH4UridRDIXif_9-OT83ZgIifpaLGscjXphgZPOQ-nxQXRiJM8WERPRtfvIpCDrVBEstxKXeh3rwUGZIDblxtMJHEExyWKPAqv1087Hp5hQssNtj7LPgBCXxRDTAXxXKHem4CtBo990YPo-RmE3QcGQFw_a7hgllRAQjpZcqmXN=w498-h663-no?authuser=0(/img)"
"(img)https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zTi8ubkOAhLz4mKYjIL6GNfOWFJfcT4lQXMggzMjF9XRHtCP-E1hQVzyVQEfkVuodO_PbirU2bQNDF2h2YIl2Tmm5et5d8EMFnWMbmHqBz80IKMY2zSQYan2HnOUHaQPTWEz7FDUVYokOLrEb6reUONJPmaDgGINU4WDxCGDUK0oRbnwQ8wXP1a0voINkjG_UzYhcBZTCppLy5yPFXktMTS-a9qkcPRQYaGQsn8caTQaRLRx48ygmU1uO8RETdrxz1KGnj_yNIZ6OAKBYK0apF0qAo77ux2yIU2CcZ7nnG6RnXM0c_thoKXpJXQIf22LY2g5ETOa0fMNJ77l6xsLyjkzeXc4f3PCsBqwuP_WNz_xj5awpw2gX0VmgjOfmEXzOSHmD4_vf8Qsp5klVWs9xyI5kWUSog9hCApzTFmqXXZ8Ezczl-lrvze5_b1pO9BYO6ozw3hzm0GRgS0XrAH7ch1BbHTyEe0LusGnesy_KSWcDzIbMniNrcF9LJk-muZrVmyeGgLqqTAQ3KtoslT36T6RRndjqnwMKAgeEW51rmJAjnH4UridRDIXif_9-OT83ZgIifpaLGscjXphgZPOQ-nxQXRiJM8WERPRtfvIpCDrVBEstxKXeh3rwUGZIDblxtMJHEExyWKPAqv1087Hp5hQssNtj7LPgBCXxRDTAXxXKHem4CtBo990YPo-RmE3QcGQFw_a7hgllRAQjpZcqmXN=w498-h663-no-tmp.jpg(/img)
I replaced the "[https.......]" with "(https......)" to be able to display the link.
I wanted to post the manipulation in the faq, but I don't have the rights to post in this section.
I am often lazy to take out my DSLR and I take the photos directly with my phone and this manipulation prevents me from having to upload the images before sharing them google does it automatically with the synchronization.