Why did my Brie and Camembert not soften at all?

[Eve]

I am very new to cheese making. I am only trying it for some months...

I made a triple cream brie with the cheesemaking.com recipe. First time it went ok although it tasted a bit like cheap brie. I'd call it a chemical esther taste. Not my favorite, but hey, it worked. The second time, I used the same recipe and I made a brie and also a camembert (different recipe of course but also cheesemaking.com). The cheese didn't soften at all. They were so hard I could throw them like rocks.

Now, what changed in between brie 1 and brie 2. First: second time I used cultures that I froze in before. Can it be the frozen cultures weren't good. Yes, I did put them in milk some days before to grow for a bit (like with a buttermilk culture). Second: I got a wine fridge for xmas to use as a cheese cave. I don't think the humidity was ok. Probably WAY to dry.

Is one of these changes the culprit for my hard cheeses, or was it something else? Anyone has an idea?

Thank you,
Eve

[quantumcheese]

Hey Eve,

How long did the white mold take to appear?

Without more information it is difficult to say, but my guess would be low humidity. I also use a wine fridge to ripen my cheeses, and to keep humidity up I use ripening boxes. They are basically tupperwares with an inner tray at the bottom. The tray allows air to flow also below the cheese and keeps it from being in contact with the released whey. Here's an example:

/https://www.amazon.de/Snips-021395-Käse-Dose-3-Liter/dp/B00C76GCJI/ref=asc_df_B00C76GCJI/?tag=googshopde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=256223481335&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6387015283315288868&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1000941&hvtargid=pla-387555294224&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

The box should be opened everyday and the cheese turned. If there's too much condensation on the walls you can reduce humidity by leaving the lid a bit open. You'll get it soon

Good luck next time!

Pro tip: when one of my Camemberts is not that creamy I just bake it in the oven and it melts into pure deliciousness. Incidentally if you try this and the cheese does not melt at all, it would be a strong indication that your cultures were not good (as it usually happens when acidification goes wrong)

[Eve]

Thanks for your answer.

The mold came really quickly, like less than a week. Seemed just like the time before. I must say: first time I did put my brie in a box because that was all I had. I knew that one had an ok humidity as i saw the damp on it everyday when turning. Maybe I should do that again... Or buy a humidifier

[salty_curd]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

I started cheese making with camembert too and it can be both rewarding and a little frustrating when it does not go as you hope it will. Please take my suggestions with a pinch of salt - they are just things I have learned and you should feel free to make your own mistakes

A few things to consider for your next make:
1. Using a plastic box is essential. I would not bother with a humidifier - they are fiddly and you do not need to worry about yet another gadget at this stage. The moisture from the cheese should keep the humidity high, but not high enough for P. candidum to flourish. I suggest you add a small jar with water and a small jar with more-than-saturated salt solution to your box. Doing this will keep the humidity in your box above 90%RH which is critical in the first week or so.
2. Temperature is also important. I did not have a wine fridge when I began and so I just used a cooler bin with ice packs around my plastic box, changed twice a day. It worked super well and I still use this method to avoid cross-contamination in my wine fridge which these days just holds longer-aging cheeses. Changing the ice packs happened at the same time as flipping the cheeses, so it was pretty convenient really.
3. The moisture in your cams should be high enough so that they ripen - try not to cut too small if you are cutting at all. This was my error when I began.
4. The cultures you add do not need to be put in milk for several days. You can do this, but I see no advantage if you are buying commercial cultures in any case. Just add it to the milk, wait for it to acidify (as per the recipe) and then continue. The cultures, frozen, last a fairly long time.

One final thing I learned is to take notes even when you think you are following a recipe. There are so many things that vary with each make in home cheesemaking that a detailed list of steps and times and observations is quite important so that you can improve from one make to the next. There are many examples of detailed notes on this forum if you are looking for examples. And if you do take notes, post them with your question - the notes can help identify the issue in a more precise way.

Happy cheese making!
Salty

[OzzieCheese]

It's good to see people trying a reasonably difficult cheese first up - I too went down that road as well to begin with. If you have a cuppa handy have a look at some of my early 'Failures' - Well different way for it not to work. But by my count it took me 7 goes to get it just right.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10142.0.html

There was a lot of learning along the way but this is one of the cheeses that I can now do consistently.

The maturing process of the Camembert/Brie and indeed most PC/GC matured cheeses can be a challenge and three or so years later I finally mastered it.
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14002.30.html

have a look at the maturing container that I use - Decore brand but the concept it the same in two cheeses per container (three overcrowds) and can be kept in a Esky with ice bricks. You have to juggle a bit to get a 10 to 12 degree C environment.  You only need to keep them in there until the cheese is just covered with a peach like fuzz of white all over - leave it go too long at 10-12 degC and they will over mature on the outside leaving the inside hard. It still tastes ok but it will over ammoniate very quickly.

So, after all that. to answer your question - why didn't my Camembert go soft? The science behind the maturing process is quite interesting. It has to do with what the molds do. The begin growing they consume the lactate and produce CO2 and water (that's why there is moisture in the container) as this continues the Ph rises once the surface lactate is consumed it is dragged from deeper in the cheese and once that is consumed the molds start on the protein and this creates ammonia. The moisture in the curd is the pathway for this movement which is why too little moisture will slow this down. The higher the fat content the movement is slowed - the curd is 'stabilized' and wont soften much. That is not a bad thing but if you are into runny cheese ... The actual ooze comes as the pH continues to increase and the casein actually switch mode and instead of being insoluble, they become soluble again and absorb the moisture in the cheese - turning the paste gooey.  This is a paraphrase of the process described in much more detail in Gianacles Caldwell's book 'Mastering Artesian Cheesemaking'.  I can't recommend this highly enough and in my opinion is a necessary reference book and has help me understand the why and not just the how.

P.S. My 'Malembert' entries has a make sheet attached which has been modified over the years and so has the process so please use the latest. Attached is the latest make sheet.

Have fun !

[Eve]

It's good to see people trying a reasonably difficult cheese first up - I too went down that road as well to begin with. If you have a cuppa handy have a look at some of my early 'Failures' - Well different way for it not to work. But by my count it took me 7 goes to get it just right.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10142.0.html

There was a lot of learning along the way but this is one of the cheeses that I can now do consistently.

The maturing process of the Camembert/Brie and indeed most PC/GC matured cheeses can be a challenge and three or so years later I finally mastered it.
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14002.30.html

have a look at the maturing container that I use - Decore brand but the concept it the same in two cheeses per container (three overcrowds) and can be kept in a Esky with ice bricks. You have to juggle a bit to get a 10 to 12 degree C environment.  You only need to keep them in there until the cheese is just covered with a peach like fuzz of white all over - leave it go too long at 10-12 degC and they will over mature on the outside leaving the inside hard. It still tastes ok but it will over ammoniate very quickly.

So, after all that. to answer your question - why didn't my Camembert go soft? The science behind the maturing process is quite interesting. It has to do with what the molds do. The begin growing they consume the lactate and produce CO2 and water (that's why there is moisture in the container) as this continues the Ph rises once the surface lactate is consumed it is dragged from deeper in the cheese and once that is consumed the molds start on the protein and this creates ammonia. The moisture in the curd is the pathway for this movement which is why too little moisture will slow this down. The higher the fat content the movement is slowed - the curd is 'stabilized' and wont soften much. That is not a bad thing but if you are into runny cheese ... The actual ooze comes as the pH continues to increase and the casein actually switch mode and instead of being insoluble, they become soluble again and absorb the moisture in the cheese - turning the paste gooey.  This is a paraphrase of the process described in much more detail in Gianacles Caldwell's book 'Mastering Artesian Cheesemaking'.  I can't recommend this highly enough and in my opinion is a necessary reference book and has help me understand the why and not just the how.

P.S. My 'Malembert' entries has a make sheet attached which has been modified over the years and so has the process so please use the latest. Attached is the latest make sheet.

Have fun !

Thank you so much! And thank you for giving me the science part. Following recipes is *kuch* easy *kuch* but I love to know why I do something and what actually happens

I bought some plastic boxes who I now store in my cheese fridge. That already helps lots with the moisture. I'll try a brie again soonish.

Another question you may be able to help me with. Both times the bries tasted -in scientific languages- like esters, like overripe pears or cheap produced brie. Not completely bad but also not like a good rich taste. What could be the reason?

[OzzieCheese]

The taste you are probably tasting my come from a couple of sources. The first is the milk sugar - Lactose- itself not being converted to lactic acid by the culture. This a real - it depends answer. When I finish a Camembert make and just before I salt them there is a definite sweet smell. Remember that alcohol is a byproduct of fermentation - this might be your ‘ester’ smell. The sweet smell lingers for a few days until the PC takes over. Again this has a lot to do with the pH (acid). Do you have a pH measuring device? This can be either a proper pH meter - which I highly recommend you get - or litmus paper for cheese making. Don’t use the litmus paper from pool chemical suppliers but, source some online that measures pH for 4 to 7.
The other source of a sweet smell might be coming at during the maturing process as the cultures are altering milk proteins (Casein) and producing different Peptides and these have a particular taste profiles.
This explains it way better than I can
https://www.cheesescience.org/cheeseflavorbasics.html

The casein breakdown takes a long time so I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that your culture hasn’t consumed enough lactose hence the pH of the curd is still too high and therefore sweet. I would do the following

Given that you mentioned frozen culture added days before you made the cheese I’m suspecting not enough culture left alive consume the lactose.
Did you mean “freeze dried” if so you just keep them in the freezer until needed. They are in a dried powder form and only need about 3 to 5 minutes to rehydrate. I do that in a little dish of the milk just before I add to to the main milk.

Check your cultures’ age - they don’t last forever.
Check your culture itself. Is it the correct type mesophilic or thermophilic.
Check your dosage rates for your amount of Milk.
Check your milk source - it might be pasteurised at way too high a temperature and don’t use longlife, ultra processed. You can use full cream milk powder but I have not tried it and your result will vary.
Check your age of the milk. If you have use by dates try for the freshest possible - I like 10 days before the use by date.
Check your pH at the start that will depend on the milk but around 6.7.

Let me know how you go next time. I’m posting a Camembert make today sometime and have a read of the others I have done to get an idea of the dependencies of milk, culture, time and temperature all play a part in the cheese making process.

[Eve]

The taste you are probably tasting my come from a couple of sources. The first is the milk sugar - Lactose- itself not being converted to lactic acid by the culture. This a real - it depends answer. When I finish a Camembert make and just before I salt them there is a definite sweet smell. Remember that alcohol is a byproduct of fermentation - this might be your ‘ester’ smell. The sweet smell lingers for a few days until the PC takes over. Again this has a lot to do with the pH (acid). Do you have a pH measuring device? This can be either a proper pH meter - which I highly recommend you get - or litmus paper for cheese making. Don’t use the litmus paper from pool chemical suppliers but, source some online that measures pH for 4 to 7.
The other source of a sweet smell might be coming at during the maturing process as the cultures are altering milk proteins (Casein) and producing different Peptides and these have a particular taste profiles.
This explains it way better than I can
https://www.cheesescience.org/cheeseflavorbasics.html

The casein breakdown takes a long time so I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that your culture hasn’t consumed enough lactose hence the pH of the curd is still too high and therefore sweet. I would do the following

Given that you mentioned frozen culture added days before you made the cheese I’m suspecting not enough culture left alive consume the lactose.
Did you mean “freeze dried” if so you just keep them in the freezer until needed. They are in a dried powder form and only need about 3 to 5 minutes to rehydrate. I do that in a little dish of the milk just before I add to to the main milk.

Check your cultures’ age - they don’t last forever.
Check your culture itself. Is it the correct type mesophilic or thermophilic.
Check your dosage rates for your amount of Milk.
Check your milk source - it might be pasteurised at way too high a temperature and don’t use longlife, ultra processed. You can use full cream milk powder but I have not tried it and your result will vary.
Check your age of the milk. If you have use by dates try for the freshest possible - I like 10 days before the use by date.
Check your pH at the start that will depend on the milk but around 6.7.

Let me know how you go next time. I’m posting a Camembert make today sometime and have a read of the others I have done to get an idea of the dependencies of milk, culture, time and temperature all play a part in the cheese making process.

When I am making new cheese, I go to the store in the morning and by the freshest milk I can find. I always use whole milk. The cultures I used last time, came from a culture batch I froze cubes from. It can be there aren't plenty enough bacteria in it. Compared with a buttermilk culture, it was for sure not as thick. My fresh cultures aren't that old. I only started making cheese half a year ago...
Maybe I should by a PH meter.

Thank you for the science tip! There will be some reading today

[mikekchar]

When using frozen mother cultures, I highly recommend starting them in some milk 24 hours ahead.  If the culture doesn't work out, you'll know about it before you start.  Also it gives you much better control over the amount of culture you are using (usually about 15 grams of resulting yogurt/buttermilk in 1 liter of milk for your cheese make).  I've had a culture survive in the freezer for almost a year, but others have died out in a few months.  So it is entirely possible that your culture has died off.