Yields

[bansidhe]

I am wondering about Cheese Yields.  I know it depends on the milk but other than that I assume it depends on when you cut and how dry you make the curds.  I think I am having trouble understanding how dry curds are to be.  When I first started making cheese, I thought my curds were "whey" too wet. So, I have been using the "grip" test mentioned on NE Cheesemaking. 

Yesterday, for the mutschil, I stirred for 20min at 108F.. I did a grip test.  The first test the curds consolidated but while separating them was possible it seemed perhaps they weren't separated enough.  SO I tried 5minutes later. The curds again consolidated but now I was Able to easily separate them.  I took that to mean they were ready.

I pressed with a much lighter weight than suggested, starting at 12lbs then using only 20 lbs for 5 hours.  I put the cheese in the cheese cave l(53F) late last night.  This morning I took it out and weighed it.  My yield was only 10.6%.  Is it because my curds were too dry?

While this is supposed to be an early ripening cheese, if my curds were too dry perhaps I should allow it to age for 4-6 months over 4-6 weeks. Any thoughts on this?  Thanks!

Note:  The recipe called for 1/4 tsp single strength rennet for 3 gallons of milk.  Since I used raw milk I added just shy of that 1/4 tsp/. It took 36 minutes to floc.  I cut at 90 minute.  Curd seemed ok, break was nice.

[Bantams]

Some cheeses don't really need the grip test, at least in my experience. I always do it with Tomme, and adjust cook time accordingly, but for Mutschli I cook to temp and that's that. Same applies for all the higher temp cheeses. 
I think that is too little rennet.  I use 0.6-0.7 ml/gallon for all my aged raw cheeses. You shouldn't need to reduce rennet on raw vs pasteurized. 

[Bantams]

Yield mostly is affected by milk type. Our cows have high butterfat and protein so our yields are far higher than any book will suggest. So I don't think you can make any assumptions on cheese curd texture based off yield unless you are making the same cheese repeatedly with the same milk source (same cows, stage of lactation, time of year, etc). 

[rsterne]

Here is a list of yields for many cheeses, and the Protein/Fat ratio that you should start with to achieve that....

https://www.uoguelph.ca/foodscience/book-page/standardization-milk-cheese-making

That University of Guelph eBook is an excellent resource, although aimed at commercial manufacturing....  I made up a spreadsheet that allows me to calculate the ratio of milk to cream for a given P/F ratio, using the store bought milk I have available here.... I use that to figure out how much 18% cream to add to my 8 litres of milk, and whether I should start with Skim, 1%, 2% or whole (3.25%) milk.... Here is a graphic representation of the results....



I use the spreadsheet to do the calculations, and it also has the results available in a table, which is easier to interpret accurately than the graph above....

Bob

[bansidhe]

According to the source provided by RSterne my yield is not far off.  What threw me was the recipe says for 3 gallons of milk I could expect 4pounds of cheese 915%) due to the higher moisture content. But when I read the recipe it seems that a drier curd is developed.  I used 3 gallons of raw cow's milk. Fat % ~4.  I felt 10.5% yield was pretty low especially when I see others with this recipe get about 12%

So, I guess my question is OTHER than milk.. what changes your yield?  Seeing how the yield for parmesan is 6%, it seems that may be correct.  Of course, my question is now, the yields posted in that source.. are they AFTER aging or the % after brining?

[Bantams]

There's more to it than butterfat %.  Commercial/primarily Holstein milk is usually about 3% protein. Jersey milk is usually 4-4.25%. That higher protein will increase yield by 33%.
Then if you take into consideration kappa casein type, you'll find even more variation. AA kappa casein milk (predominantly a Holstein trait) produces a lower yield; BB milk increases cheese yield by 10% if all else is equal.

Yield can also be reduced if the milk is compromised - stored more than 48 hours after milking, pasteurized at a higher temp, not enough calcium chloride added, etc

Yes, cheese moisture/cook length affects yields greatly but unless you're using standard p/h commodity milk, "standard" yields are irrelevant. 
I don't know for sure, but I suspect most yields are after molding, definitely not after aging. 

[rsterne]

I would assume that those yields are before aging, but would definitely be after pressing and salting/brining.... If you "standardize" your milk to a given P/F ratio (eg. 1.0) and the milk is higher in protein content, it would also be higher in BF content.... If the Protein is 3%, with a P/F of 1.0 you would have 3% BF, but if the Protein is 4%, the BF content would have to be 4% also.... The high protein milk would have a greater yield, (about 33% as Bantam notes).... but is that due to higher protein or the higher BF, or both.... If you partially skimmed that milk with 4% protein until you got down to 3% BF, my hunch would be that the yield would drop a lot (but maybe not quite as low as a 3% P / 3% BF milk), even though the Protein was still 4%.... This is just a guess, because I have never been fortunate enough to use Jersey milk, but it seems logical to me....

In any case, I find that chart in the uGuelph eBook very handy as it allows me to start with a milk having a P/F ratio typical for the type of cheese I am trying to replicate.... I think it is a lot better than a recipe that just says to use "2 gallons of whole milk".... 

Bob

[mikekchar]

Personally, I always measure my yield right after salting and only look at other yields for a rough idea.  The main thing is to track your yields over time with the same recipe and milk.  I've said this before, but for me it takes at least 5 times making the same cheese before I even *start* to get a good idea of what I'm trying to accomplish.  I think as one gets more experience it gets easier, but I wouldn't be setting any metrics before you've stabilised what you are doing.

Quick note on metrics - There are 2 related concepts.  A "measure" is something you measure.  It can be anything: temperature, pH, time, amount, whatever.  A "metric" is a measure that you use to modify your process.  When you are doing something for the first time, you should have no metrics, only measures.  It's OK to vary the process and keep track of how that affects the measures, but you shouldn't be trying to set targets on metrics until you have really dialed in your process.  I'm guilty of speaking really ambiguously given that I'm always talking about pH targets, consistency targets, and even yield targets.  Just keep in mind, that I'm pretty loosey-goosey with my "targets" for a very long time.  I generally have targets so that I can take measures, not so that I can adjust my process.

For example, you might have a flocculation multiplier target.  You can change it with the idea of simply trying to measure how it affects other things like consistency, yield, etc.  However, until you are getting pretty close to achieving your ideal goals, you wouldn't start adjusting the flocculation target *in order* to inch closer to a better yield.

To be more specific to this case, whatever yield you get is fine as long as the cheese turns out fine.  You should measure it and record it for later, but for now, you shouldn't use it to control anything.  If the cheese doesn't turn out fine, you probably still don't want to use yield as a metric.  Instead, adjust your targets in other places, but still record the yield.  Later, when the cheese is turning out well, you can use the yield to help you decide if there is something else you might do to improve.  For example, you might think that too low a yield implies that maybe you can afford to have more moisture in the curd and give it a try.  At this stage, though, that's not going to be controllable.

[bansidhe]

Thanks guys!  This is great information.  Someone mentioned different kinds of milk, like AA and BB..  what about A2?  That seems to be really popular around here (I personally think the whole A1 vs A2 thing is BS).  Anyway, I never thought about that.. SO. I think I will try and make similar cheese but with A1&A2 instead of just A2.    I know there's a lot more to it, like seasonal variation.. herd variation etc.  But I am quite curious.

I also appreciate the comments concerning measure and metric.  This is all quite true.  As I do this more and more, I learn to take note of more and more things that I can measure. Yield is an other one of those things.  Man I wish I could retire.. I would make cheese almost everyday so I could more quickly develop a feel for it.  :-)

[rsterne]

We are retired, and less than a year after we started we are now down to only doing a 2 lb. cheese every 2 weeks.... We have filled up our cave, and realistically if we eat more than a pound a week between the two of us.... well, you get the idea.... 

Bob

[bansidhe]

Ha!   I'll give it away. My dad will eat it and I have a few friends who are game.  :-). That and we do eat a lot of cheese ourselves.

I think once Im at the point that every week we can try a new cheese, then I will go to once every two weeks for a make. :-)

[rsterne]

Since we quarter our cheeses for sampling, on average we can try two cheeses per week now.... That works out to slightly more than a 1 oz. serving for each of us, each and every night.... plus some extra for Saganaki, French Onion Soup, or Fondue.... and a nice 4- variety cheese plate for special occasions....

Once we settle on a few REAL favourites that we always want on hand, we will make the odd extra on the weekends in between our bi-weekly makes.... 

Bob

[Bantams]

Kappa casein and beta casein (A1/A2) are unrelated. I haven't read anything about affect of beta casein (A/A2 type) on cheese quality or yield. 
Kappa casein, beta casein AB and beta lactoglobulin are all protein categories that affect curd quality and yield. 

[bansidhe]

Cool.

[mikekchar]

Just going to say... Food intolerances are no joke.  I could go on at length about why people who are suffering greatly from a variety of difference ailments and syndromes may mistakenly reach for the "I can't eat X" card.  Even when they *are* mistaken (which seems to be overwhelmingly the case), if you have ever experienced that kind of suffering yourself, I think you would have a different point of view.  Saying "it is BS" oversimplifies the situation to the point of being insulting.  I realise that was not your intent, but it literally adds insult to injury.

The main problem is that there are wide classes of intolerences and other problems/syndromes that can cause excruciating pain.  For me, in the last year I have had exactly 3 days without being in pain.  I know it's 3 because I can remember each day vividly.  6 different doctors I have visited over the years have absolutely *no idea* what's wrong.  They give me *no advice* other than, "Well, sucks to be you, I guess.  Probably you won't die from it.  I mean, it's been *years* and you haven't died yet.  Anyway, I've ruled out *my* specialty, so it's not my problem.  Good luck!"

Someone in that condition is tempted to reach for anything.  By shear coincidence, it may appear to work.  Or at least help a *bit*.  You convince yourself that it's getting better.  Really, *this time* I've found the problem!  I've got the fix!  In 6 months, I'll be normal again!  And, of course, it doesn't work out. 

The problem could be *anything*.  Or *many things*.  Or *nothing*.

Intolerance of A1 beta casein *is* a thing.  It *does* affect people.  It probably doesn't affect you.  Or me. Alas. But it's not BS, not even if some people mistakenly hope that's why they have been suffering.