Consequence of renneting too long?

[Jen]

I've made a few cheeses now, and am trying to refine some more, and I know that one of my weak spots is deciding on the correct curd density for a clean break.

My question is, if I let the milk rennet too long and the milk becomes really stiff, does that affect the drying of the curd?  I've been getting super stiff curd, and I'm able to hit the pH okay, but I don't know if I'm doing damage by letting it become too stiff. When I start cutting and stirring when the curd is clean break but softer, I have trouble not shattering the curd.  A few minutes longer, and I find that the curd is quite stiff and doesn't shatter.  I know there are nuances to this. Could you all help me understand better?

Thanks.

[Bantams]

Have you tried determining curd readiness by the flocculation test vs final appearance?
What type of cheese are you making and which resource are you following?

[Jen]

Hi Bantams,

Yes, I do try to note the flocculation time, although the two recipes I'm using now don't mention flocc timing.  I'm focusing on cheddar (Caldwell) and derby (cheesemaking.com). I'm guessing the flocc factor should be around 3 for both. Is that right? Thanks for the response!

[Mornduk]

I just opened Caldwell's Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking book to check. She has it at x3.5 for Cheddar, maybe there's a printing error in yours. Also checked the Derby one, he points "You will note the milk thickening at about 15-20 minutes, but wait ...until full 45 mins to cut". I'd say that's basically a x3.

[Bantams]

If you're using flocc time, then that will self adjust depending on the milk to give you the proper cut time and curd consistency.
What flocc times are you getting?

Too firm of curd is definitely not a good thing. For most cheeses I would err on the side of too soft vs too firm (though I mostly make Alpine styles). But again, flocc gives you a definite cut time, not a window of possibilities. 
I'm not sure if you have read any resources that discuss using "clean break" for readiness, but that is bogus. I have no idea where that came from but you'll only find it in home cheesemaking resources. But I fear that has taught folks to expect a firm curd that cubes perfectly and doesn't break easily. No so. Commercial producers cut slowly over 10 minutes or so - the curds start out fairly large and soft and get a bit smaller and firmer with each pass.  So it is normal for the curd to break up as you cut/stir, especially if your initial cut was quite large.  Unfortunately hard to describe with words, but maybe try watching some YouTube videos of commercial producers cutting curd.

[Jen]

Thank you both,

Bantams,
I think I suffered from too much information from researching endlessly on the internet.  I'm making a Derby today, and my flocc was 15 mins.  I've been able to get close to the flocc time if I know it (within a couple of minutes anyway), but when the final time arrives, I lose confidence and think the curd needs to be firmer. I will stop trusting my eye and trust the time instead. Thanks so much for your patience and guidance. It means a lot.

Mornduk, I think not a printing error, but an operator error Thank you. I will have to go back and find that page and place it above my stove for future reference.

So, I've made three cheddars that were basically jello curd.  Any idea what I should expect when I cut them open? I hit 5.4ish on salting, and they seemed okay otherwise.

[Bantams]

(sorry, posted in wrong topic)

[mikekchar]

Homogenised milk can be *very* hard to work with.  The curds often shatter if you even look at them funny. For a cheddar, I think it is especially difficult because you have relatively large amounts of stirring.  Non-homogenised milk costs me twice as much ($4 per liter!) and I still think it's worth it.  I've made some very good cheeses from homogenised milk, but they are so fiddly.

My current approach is to cut large column early (at a multiplier of about 2.0, or a bit higher).  Then divide them down slowly over time, getting to the final cut size at my desired multiplier time.  But then I leave them heal for 15 minutes or so.  Then I stir *once* and let them heal for another 5-10 minutes and just slowly increase the frequency of stirring.  After the curds have firmed up a bit and there is enough whey, I move to using my hand to stir.  Your hand is a bit more delicate, but it's too big when then curds are large.

Mixing non-homogenised with homogenised milk helps a bit.  Yesterday I did a halloumi make with 2/3 homogenised milk and it wasn't too bad using a normal cut schedule.  There was some shattering and the curd dried out a bit faster than I expected, but if I had been paying attention it would have been fine.  Also some homogenised milk is better than others.  The milk my dad using on Vancouver Island (Island Farms?) is surprisingly OK despite being homogenised.  I've made cheese with him before and it's not as good as non-homogenised, but it's not terrible either.  He's even able to make alpine cheeses relatively easily (which I can't even imagine with the homogenised milk I can get here in Japan).  No idea what the difference is.

One last thing about homogenised milk is that Caldwell warns that the destruction of the fat globules leads it to be susceptible to lipases.  You'll end up with funky flavours as it ages.  I've recently done a tomme and a Caerphilly that I aged out to 4 months each with homogenised milk and I think I agree with that assesment.  Both were good cheeses, but the extra funkiness helped the tomme more than the Caerphilly (4 months is a bit long for a Caerphilly anyway...)