Author Topic: Understanding Rind Moulds  (Read 2590 times)

Offline lacaseus

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Understanding Rind Moulds
« on: September 29, 2021, 12:58:47 AM »
I'm very new to natural-rinded cheeses, and I have questions about the safety/desirability of moulds that show up during aging. It seems many people in the affinage board have started unpopular threads on this topic, so I'm reluctant to add to them. In the interests of attracting the attention of experienced cheesemakers and making this thread useful in situations other than my specific one, I'm wondering if people can weigh in on these questions:

- In the context of not intentionally inoculating a cheese, what kind of moulds would be expected to naturally appear on a cheese as it ages?
- Are there ways to tell whether a particular mould I find on a cheese is dangerous?
- Is it possible to control these moulds without waxing? I've found wiping them off fairly ineffective.
- Assuming I conclude that a cheese is safe to eat, do I remove the rind (if so, how much?) or eat it?

Offline lacaseus

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Re: Understanding Rind Moulds
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2021, 01:01:43 AM »
Here's my specific situation, in case anyone wants to provide specific advice.

I've mostly made waxed cheeses, but recently I tried a few natural-rinded cheeses: manchego, montasio, and romano (all using recipes from Ricki Carroll's Home Cheesemaking). Since moving them into my aging room, which is a relatively warm root cellar, they've started developing moulds on the rinds. The recipes in the book all have slightly different directions: they say nothing, say to remove "unwanted" moulds, or say to remove any mould using a cloth dampened with vinegar or salt water. I must admit I've been treating them all the same and wiping them all down with vinegar every few days or once a week. While this knocks them  back by removing "fuzzy bits," it's far from removing the mould in any complete sense. See the before and after pictures below. Are these polychromatic cheeses safe? If so, why wipe off the mould in the first place?

Offline Bantams

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Re: Understanding Rind Moulds
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2021, 03:40:07 AM »
I highly recommend getting a copy of Gianaclis Caldwell's Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking.  Excellent resource and great recipes. 
If you're not actively preventing mold via waxing, vac sealing, oiling, or brine-washing, you have what is termed a "natural rind" cheese (except of course bloomies or blues). They should be flipped and brushed 1-2x per week for a nice thin rind. You will have a multitude of mold species, most of which are non-toxic. But natural rinds are trimmed off, not eaten. 
You'll find you get a progression of molds through the aging process - first blue, then some white, then brownish, etc for example. 
I think there is one type that is toxic but it's not super common.  But as I said, these rinds are generally trimmed before eating. 
If you want to learn more about actual species you will need to delve deep into professional resources, like those put out by the American Cheese Society.  There is one researcher currently cataloguing rind flora of cheeses around the country (world?)

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Understanding Rind Moulds
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2021, 11:14:25 AM »
The one mold that most people think is toxic is aspergillus niger.  It's the black mold that you often see on onions.  It's not actually toxic, per se, but some people are allergic to it.  My understanding is that if you don't already know you are allergic to it, then you probably aren't.  I've actually never seen it on my cheeses even though it often grows on my onions.

Most mold that grows on cheese is capable of producing toxins.  For reasons that nobody seems to know (or study), the molds do not tend to produce those toxins on cheese.  I've spend quite a lot of time looking into it and I have yet to find a single reference to anybody getting ill from the rind of a hard cheese.  It is a very, very uncommon thing in any event.

So why do people fear mold?  Well, as far as I can tell it's for a few reasons.  First, growing mold is a good indication that the acidity of what it is growing on is high enough to be spoiled.  For soft cheeses, this is especially important to understand.  For example, if I see brevibacterium linens (a bacteria, not a mold, but bear with me) growing on my ricotta, I throw the ricotta out.  B. linens is perfectly safe to eat, but soft cheese is high moisture and there is no barrier for other things that aren't so visible.  If b. linens is growing on it, then other stuff probably is too.  I don't know how safe it *actually* is, but that's how I reason about it.

For hard cheeses, if you have a nice rind established, nothing will get in.  You can try this experiment.  Make a hard cheese like a cheddar or something.  Cut it in half.  Rub one half with some blue mold (p. roqueforti).  Do nothing on the other half.  You will find that the half that had blue mold on it will have blue flavour throughout.  Early on in the aging, the rind has not been established and the blue can grow easily through the paste.  If you look after the other half well and then rub it with blue mold after 4 weeks, it will grow nicely on the outside, but will do absolutely *nothing* to the inside.  The rind stops it from getting in.

There is a lot about natural rinds and I don't have time to type even what little I know about it here.  My main advice is that in the early rind you want to cultivate what you want so as to exclude what you don't want.  Don't try to keep the rind clean!  That just doesn't work.  Normally you want to tilt the odds in favour of yeasts (and often specifically geotrichum -- Ignore David Asher: it will just show up in your cave naturally.  It is literally everywhere).  The one exception that I've made for that is if you are going directly for a mycodre rind (trychothesium sp.)  That will also work really well and results in less flavour change that geotrichum if that's what you want.  Doing an alpine (washed rind where you build up a schmear early on) is technically getting yeasts going, but you don't tend to see them due to the schmear.

Succession molds require a low acidity and so you should *never* wash with vinegar (in my experience).  It does nothing good.  It looks great at first because the mold dies, but then it just comes back.  Also *never* wash with a brine stronger that 5% (again in my experience).  I use 3%.  Most yeasts (including geotrichum) die out at concentrations greater than 3%.  Blue dies out at 8%.  Washing with a strong brine means that the only thing that will ever grow on your rind is blue.  Finally, keep your humidity much lower than most people recommend unless you know what you are doing.  If you get mildew (black/grey round dots that stain the rind), you know you are way too high humidity.  High humidity encourages blue and eventually b. linens.  You want yeasts most of the time, so you want a lower humidity.  Don't lower it so low that the rind cracks, but if you are having trouble with mold, it's because your humidity is too high.  I don't know exactly what level is right for your setup and nobody else does either.  You'll have to find out for yourself.

But don't fear the mold.  As far as I know, there are no natural rinds that are toxic.  You can always eat them.  Some taste very good.  Some are bitter and unpleasant.  it depends a lot on the cheese and just random chance what happens to be growing on your rind.  You can kind of control it a bit to make the rind tastier, but that's a bit of an advanced skill.  But for hard cheeses, don't worry about it.  This is not true of soft cheeses, where they high moisture content changes the situation considerable (again, as I understand it).

Last thing I'll say on this topic for now.  There are no good references for beginners for doing natural rinds as far as I know.  Most pros work with caves that are already set up almost perfectly and have hundreds or thousands of cheeses that contain the yeasts and molds that they want.  For them it's just a matter of doing nothing.  When you have one other cheese in your cave and you are just starting out, it's might be a struggle to figure out what works for you.  The more cheese you make, the more your cave will simple have the stuff that you want in it.  I bashed my head against a wall for more than a year before I started getting rinds like I wanted.  Now I barely bat an eyelid and it just works out (with minor corrections on my part from time to time).  If you keep with it, that will be the case for you too.

Offline modibo

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Re: Understanding Rind Moulds
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2021, 12:44:33 PM »
This thread is really helpful - thanks Lacaseus for posing your questions, and Bantams and mikekchar for your replies.

Here's a followup - I've been a homebrewer for about 30 years off and on, and one cardinal rule is to never, ever use equipment or air exposed to Brettanomyces (which sours wort) come into contact with a beer that you don't want to become sour. I've read some cheesemaking recipes and advice that take the same approach to P. roqueforti - for example, never aging a blue cheese in a cave where you also age non-blues.

You seem to be saying that blue molds are normal and can't be avoided as part of the normal flora that could grow on a natural rind cheese. Am I getting that right? Is there a level of appropriate precaution besides total abstinence from introducing P. roqueforti?

Thanks!

Offline modibo

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Re: Understanding Rind Moulds
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2021, 04:30:39 PM »
I've read some cheesemaking recipes and advice that take the same approach to P. roqueforti - for example, never aging a blue cheese in a cave where you also age non-blues.

You seem to be saying that blue molds are normal and can't be avoided as part of the normal flora that could grow on a natural rind cheese. Am I getting that right? Is there a level of appropriate precaution besides total abstinence from introducing P. roqueforti?


Just found this thread - seems to address my question, which probably belongs elsewhere anyways: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,17160.0.html

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Understanding Rind Moulds
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2021, 12:08:48 AM »
Certainly there are 2 approaches you can take.  One is to try to maintain a sanitised environment and then seed your rinds with only the yeasts, molds and bacteria that you want.  In many ways, this is what people do when they are making bloomy rinds (although you don't have to try that had because penicillium candidum is an absolute beast and will usually out-compete anything anyway).  The other way is to use the yeasts, molds and bacteria in your environment.  This is the typical way to make most traditional natural rind cheeses.  You might think of it as the difference between making a lager and making a lambic :-)

To be honest, though, there is a reason that most traditional natural rind cheeses are made using natural occurring flora in your environment: it is practically impossible to control anyway.  Aging cheese is completely unlike aging beer (I was a home brewer for 20 years before I switch to making cheese -- home brewing is technically illegal in Japan and could affect my immigration status, so I gave it up).  With home brewing it is easy to control the environment.  You use closed fermenters and basically nothing is going to get in there.  I'm going to disagree with you on the need to keep Brettanomyces separated, but obviously you do what works for you.  You do a good job of sanitising your equipment and pitching enough yeast and the yeast will out-compete anything.  When you are making the cheese, the milk in the vat is similar.  You don't have to go crazy trying to keep a sterile environment.  The starter culture will dominate and as long as you start with sanitised equipment and are relatively careful, nothing will go wrong (I'm talking on home production scales -- commercial scale is a different issue, just like in brewing).

Aging cheese is more like having a freshly plowed field and expecting to have no weeds growing in it, though.  It's just an unreasonable expectation.  Like I said, if you seed the cheese with a culture it will have a good head start.  Adding geotrichum to your milk will result in geotrichum growing incredibly quickly.  But just like seeding a field, there is little you can do to stop "weeds" from volunteering.  You need to set up the environment so that it favours what you want to grow, instead.  With that, the thing you want will always dominate.  There are actually only a handful of things that will grow on a young rind and so you don't even need to seed the rind of the cheese most of the time.  If you have the environment right, it will just grow what you want.

Having said that, there are some places you have to be cautious.  Mucor (often called "cat fur mold") is probably the most problematic mold.  It's prized in some tomme cheeses, but it tends to grow well in bloomy rinds and once it gets established in your cave, it is reportedly almost impossible to keep out of your bloomy rinds.  Apparently, before 1970, it was common for Camembert cheeses to have mucor and so you would have this mottled white and grey rind, but sometime after that point, the industry settled on pure white, similar to Brie.  French tomme producers often have a separate aging area for mucor covered tommes and their other cheeses and the person who works on the tommes is not allowed into the other cheese areas.  I've lately seen a little bit of mucor growing on some of my older cheeses, but for some reason it doesn't like my cave.  If I pluck it off, it never grows back again.  YMMV.

Gianaclis Caldwell famously advises caution with blues since when she was researching recipes for her book, she had to dispose of some of cheeses from her commercial creamery due to cross contamination with the blue.  However, I'm going to say that in this instance, there is a *big* difference between running a commercial creamery with hundreds/thousands of cheeses and having a cheese fridge with a few cheeses.  Especially if you are using maturation boxes for your blues, it's not hard at all to contain the blue.  To be honest, if you can't do that, then you probably can't maintain natural rinds in good condition at all.  It takes experience to get good at it.

The thing about doing commercial affinage is that you have hundreds/thousands of cheeses all doing the same thing.  So the commercial cheese producer has to do almost nothing other than to keep the humidity at a decent level and turn/brush their cheeses every day.  The cave takes care of the rest.  So it's a much bigger problem if your cave decides that you are making blues now :-).  At home, you just change your environment, baby the cheeses and everything is fine.  It's just not a thing you can do at scale, though.

So anyway, every situation is different.  Everybody's cave is different and everybody has a slightly different technique.  You'll find your stride over time.  I find that affinage is at least as deep a topic as making the cheese in the first place and there is a *lot* to learn.  I don't believe you can control it the way that you control fermentation in brewing, though.  Maybe if you introduce everything yourself, keep everything in maturation boxes, wipe down all your surfaces every day, etc, etc, etc.  But... I don't think that's necessary or even desirable. YMMV.