Best Temperature for Making Eyes

[rsterne]

Most recipes call for 65-70*F during the warm phase so that the Propionic Shermanii can produce the eyes.... Some here have used temperatures as high as 75*F with success as well.... Recently I read that lower temperatures within that range will produce larger eyes, but fewer of them, while higher temperatures create more but smaller eyes....

The cheeses we make are all an 8-9 litre make, which means a Swiss style cheese comes our at 2 lbs., give or take, depending on fat content.... Our first we used 75*F, but are gradually reducing the temperature of the warm phase, and the last one we did at 70*F.... All of them swelled nicely, but all of them collapsed after about 3 weeks, but mostly without splitting.... they just "deflated".... I have asked on this forum if anyone else has had this problem, without luck....

My question for today is.... what would you recommend for the temperature for a 2 lb. Swiss style cheese for the eye-producing stage?.... We just made a Maasdam, but the question also applies to Jarlsberg, Emmental, and Baby Swiss....

Bob

[paulabob]

I don't have an answer, but was wondering if you were using too much propionic?  Really curious what might be causing the collapse.

Are these raw milk makes?

[rsterne]

No, I use 8 litres of 2% P/H milk plus about 500 ml (depending on the make) of 18% cream, all supermarket product.... I have tried various amounts of PS but it always collapses after swelling....

Bob

[colby]

@rsterne
By deflating you mean pancaking or slumping (it goes flat after a few days at room temperature) one these could be the cause:

The first one is not cooking the curds long enough. I have found particularly with cheeses such as Baby Swiss, Masdammer and Jarlsberg that they are fine in the cheese cave, but once they go to room temperature for eye development, they slump. I have a Baby Swiss about 1" high from 12 litres of milk.
Try cooking longer until the curds are firmer. I found that soft, squishy curds will slump. You could try cooking till they squeak when you bite them. They should spring back to original shape when you lightly squeeze them.

The second one may actually be pressing too hard, too soon. 
Pressing too hard at the beginning creates a kind of water balloon effect. You close the rind and there is nowhere for the whey to escape. The result is a very high moisture cheese on the inside.
Press with less weight at the start.

[rsterne]

I have learned the hard way about pressing too hard too soon, so I am confident it's not that.... I cook the curds until they pass my "grip test", where I can compress them into a ball in my hand and then tease them apart with my thumb.... At that stage, they are indeed slightly springy as you suggest.... I will try biting them next time to check for "squeek", I'm sure that is even firmer than what I am doing....

All the "Swiss" cheeses I have made expand beautifully in the warm stage, starting to swell at 7-10 days, and then finish expanding at 2-3 weeks.... Then they suddenly deflate within a day or at the most 2, usually ending up thinner and larger in diameter than what they started.... Here is a photo of an Emmental just before brining, and before the first 2-week cool phase....



and then 3 weeks into the warm phase, nicely swollen.... Notice the bag is loose from CO2 production, and the cheese is domed a lot....



and finally here is what it looked like at 4 months when we sampled it....



As you can see, the center collapsed to thinner than original, and it is larger in diameter.... That collapse occurred immediately after the eye formation, and all of our Swiss styles have done the same thing....

Bob

[mikekchar]

Have you tried aging it for a while without bagging it?  I'd be curious if that were contributing to the problem.  My late blown Beaufort-like (which was only 4 liters of milk!) stayed inflated until I ate it and kept it's shape even after I cut it.  I'm not at all experienced with this style, but one thing I noticed was that the paste started out surprisingly maleable and that it hardened as the cheese aged -- in ways I've never seen before.  I wonder if it need to transpire some of the moisture in the cheese after it has expanded.

[rsterne]

That's entirely possible I guess.... I have tried bagging after brining, waxing after brining (which splits in the warm phase and must be replaced).... I have tried rebagging after the collapse and rewaxing after the collapse.... We don't leave our cheeses "naked" as my wife hates fighting mold....

Bob

[Bantams]

It sounds like you're vacuum sealing before the warm phase. I think that's probably a big part of the problem - I would vac seal after it has swelled and returned to the cool room.

[rsterne]

That might be the case, except I have also tried using wax instead, rewaxing when it split from swelling, and it still collapsed.... I have also had it collapse after swelling when the vacuum bag was loose and floppy, and obviously full of CO2.... Colour me perplexed!....

Bob

[fattyacid]

Too much fat is your problem. The curd matrix needs a relatively higher protein concentration to keep the CO2 from diffusing out. You will find that most eyed varieties of cheese are lower or reduced fat as well as being raw milk.

-FA

[rsterne]

I have paid attention to the recommend P/F ratio, and have had the problem regardless of fat content.... The last "Swiss" style I did, a Maasdam, I used Holdbac, and held the temperature between 68-70*F, and it took longer to swell (4 weeks).... It grew in diameter more than in height, but so far has not seemed to collapse as much.... The holes were larger and more uniform, so I'm getting there....

Bob

[DeejayDebi]

I told by a cheese procucer in the Netherlands several years ago for the best eyes in Emmental cheese age at 68 to 72 F degrees for the first 30 days so the lactic acids develop slowly. then slowly lower the temperature.