Author Topic: Holdbac LC Packaging  (Read 3218 times)

Offline rsterne

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Holdbac LC Packaging
« on: May 13, 2022, 09:12:57 PM »
I just got my second package of 100 DCU of Holdbac LC, and it contains nearly 4 times the weight of culture....  :o .... The packs are both 100 DCU, and the first one contained 8 grams, the new one contains 30 grams (in a larger package).... I know that cultures should be used by DCU, and that the weight can vary from lot to lot.... but this is a HUGE difference.... If they are the same density (I will have to weigh 1/4 tsp. of each to find out), I will have to use 4 times the volume of the new one.... eg. 1/2 tsp. instead of 1/8 tsp....

Just another thing to watch out for when you get a new batch of a product....  ::)

One other thing I found from reading the website of my supplier, this product is "pelletized" (yes, you can feel the coarseness of the grains through the package), and you need to crush the pellets with a rolling pin (while still in the packaging) to make it easier to measure.... Interestingly, in the first package I bought the culture felt and looked "normal" with tiny grains.... I am wondering if Danisco changed their process?....  :-\

Bob
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 09:34:30 PM by rsterne »
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Online mikekchar

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Re: Holdbac LC Packaging
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2022, 02:51:34 AM »
This is why I *always* make mother cultures.  They don't work well for "farmhouse cultures" where you have a mix of thermophilic and mesophilic cultures, but that doesn't bother me, really.  If I'm doing a "farmhouse" style of cheese I'll make a mesophilic mother culture and a thermophilic mother culture and mix them in whatever ratio I want.  I normally have one of each going in my fridge at all times anyway (I like yogurt ; -) ).

If I'm making one up from scratch, about 24 hours before making cheese I'll add DVI culture to about 500 ml of milk.  I usually do mesophilic cultures at 25 C for 12-16 hours (depending on the type) and thermophilic cultures at 43 C for 6-8 hours.  I try to keep an eye on when it first  coagulates.  This corresponds with pH.  So for the mesophilic, I'm going at about a pH of 4.9 and with the thermophilic about 5.2 (I guess... the pH it coagulates at is temperature dependent, but I've never measured the pH).  The idea is to stop when I've got the pH where it favours the bacteria I like (which I judge from taste -- like I said, I usually make yogurt every day so I have a lot of experience with my cultures).  Then it goes straight into the fridge for the last few hours before I use it.

I tend to  go with a nominal rate of 15 grams of mother culture (yogurt) per liter of milk.  This gives me *great* control.  If I'm doing a "farmhouse" culture, depending on the temperatures and cultures I may actually go as high at 15 grams of mesophilic and 7 grams of thermophilic (if I'm making cheese at around 32C, for example, and not getting into the range of the thermophilic culture I'm using).  If the thermophilic culture is going to get active, I'll be closer to 15 grams total for the two.

But since I gave up on guessing the viability of my DVI cultures, my cheese has only improved.  I think for commercial outfits that use a lot of culture and go through it quickly, it makes sense to add it directly.  It will reduce risk of contamination, it's easier, etc, etc,.  For home makers, though, I think mother cultures are just so much more predictable that it barely makes sense to do it any other way.

Offline Bantams

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Re: Holdbac LC Packaging
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2022, 03:30:52 PM »
I too have had some cultures that varied quite a bit by weight. You just need to weigh each pack of culture and divide by the DCU. It works :)

Offline rsterne

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Re: Holdbac LC Packaging
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2022, 05:27:31 PM »
Working by weight is the proper way, no doubt.... it's just inconvenient to use a (fractional) gram scale every time I make cheese.... Using measuring spoons is so much easier.... I am going to weigh a 1/4 tsp. of culture each time I get a new package, record it, and figure out the dosage for my 8.5-9 litre makes.... Most cultures I have weigh 0.52-0.57 g for 1/4 tsp. that I have weighed so far, but I haven't done the Holdbac yet.... Next time I use it, I will do that.... Not all cultures weigh about 0.55 g for 1/4 tsp. however, the LH 100 I have weighs 0.98 g. for 1/4 tsp....

Of course the DCU in 1/4 tsp. varies a lot, depending on the culture (and now, I am finding out, the batch).... One thing I haven't got a good feel for, however, is how much "extra" culture you need for the small batches I make.... As an example, if the instructions for the culture say to use 5-10 DCU for 100 L of milk, for 10 L would I use 1 DCU, or more than that?.... What happens if you add too much culture?.... I don't use a pH meter....  ::)

Bob
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Offline Bantams

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Re: Holdbac LC Packaging
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2022, 05:33:50 PM »
I've also seen recipes where they say to add a bit more culture if you're working with small amounts, but I don't really understand why that would be.
Time and temp for culturing have more effect on the ripening speed and pH curve than the starting amount of culture so I wouldn't stress too much. But take good notes so you can see what works for you. 

Offline rsterne

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Re: Holdbac LC Packaging
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2022, 07:41:48 PM »
Obviously the number of bacteria grows exponentially, doubling every "X" minutes.... so if you start with too few, then the starting point for actually converting lactose to lactic acid moves to a later time (it takes time to get to what you should have added).... That's why I'm guessing that "too much" is far better than "too little"....

If you calculate the amount of culture to add to get the recommended DCUs, most small recipes call for a far greater amount....  ::) .... For example, the MA 11 I have is 10 gr. for 50 DCUs, or 5 DCUs per gram.... The recommended amount is 6.25 DCUs per 100 litres of milk, which would be 1.25 grams.... It weighs 0.57 grams for 1/4 tsp.... If 1.25 grams is enough for 100 litres, then for a 10 litre batch (2.6 gallons) you should use 0.125 grams, which is less than 1/16 tsp.... Virtually every recipe for a 2-3 gallon batch calls for 1/4 tsp., which is 4-5 times as much as you need, in theory....

Bob
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Online mikekchar

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Re: Holdbac LC Packaging
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2022, 11:51:27 PM »
Not to be too negative, but virtually every recipe also has practically a random amount of rennet.  You see recipes with 60-100 IMCU per liter and the author seems to have no idea why they are using that amount.  The thing about cheesemaking is that it's very difficult not to end up with *some* kind of cheese (at least as long as you aren't making quick mozzarella...).  The vast majority of recipes I see, whether online or in books, make no sense to me at all.  More than one famous recipe author has a "buttermilk blue" recipe where they add something like 1/4 of the total milk as buttermilk and *then* add a mesophilic culture for good measure.  I honestly think that most people have no idea why they are adding the ingredients that they are adding.

The thing about culture amount is that adding too much or too little doesn't ruin your cheese.  It just makes a different cheese than you are trying to make.  If you add too little, your rennet is going to work more slowly.  If you aren't checking flocculation, then you will cut the curds too early.  This will result in more fat and whey escaping.  You'll drain too early, but because you cut early, the curds won't be too moist.  The pH is high which will spare calcium, leading to a very pliable curd.  At worst, if you blindly pile on the weight, it will close the rind and it won't drain well.  But likely you'll be OK and since the curd retains a bit too much whey, it will actually acidify faster than it would have done and you'll be at about the right pH when it comes time to salt.  The curd compositions is going to be *very* different than what you were aiming for, but it will be good cheese.

In the other direction, your rennet works faster.  You get more fat and whey in the curds.  You cut late, but because the acidity is high, it drains faster.  If you are *really* over, the curd will be so firm that you tear it when cutting, letting it drain even faster.  You drain late and the pH is low, so it's harder to press.  You'll notice that as well as having to much culture (and too much rennet) in the recipes, they also press with too much weight.  Well, if you've overshot your pH and you added too much rennet you might need that weight.  Again, it drains quickly and so the pH drop slows.  You end up at about the right pH at salting and you get a good cheese.  However, worlds apart from the other extreme.

If you don't know what the cheese is supposed to taste like ahead of time (the vast majority of these authors seem not to have much experience with the original traditional cheeses -- they just want a few hundred recipes in their book), then it will be good cheese and you'll think, "I'm a genius".

Not every author is like that.  Jim Wallace's recipes are by and large incredibly well researched.  If you ask him why he's done something, he'll tell you *exactly* why.  I don't always agree with some of the recipes, but he clearly knows a lot more than me so I tend to think that I need to study more :-)  Caldwell's recipes are the same.  Quite a lot of the recipes here on the cheese forum are really well thought out and researched.  Pretty much everything else I've found has been of variable (random?) quality.

Offline rsterne

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Re: Holdbac LC Packaging
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2022, 01:14:13 AM »
 Well written as always, Mike.... I guess if I make things consistently, at least I can reproduce the ones I like....  ::)

Bob
Cheesemaking has rekindled our love of spending time together, Diane and me!