Author Topic: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese  (Read 3046 times)

Offline NewbieInNewHampshire

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Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« on: November 23, 2022, 11:01:53 PM »
Hey all,
I went nuts for my first attempt at a pressed cheese and made a recipe translated from a woman's blog (https://blog.cheesemaking.com/chocolate-cheese/). I'm pretty sure I'm doing everything wrong and need a little advice. First, the day I took it out of the cave (after aging 3 weeks) to coat it with the olive oil-honey-cacao mixture, it was so covered with mold that I couldn't get it all off with the brush. It doesn't help that I didn't know to keep the cheese cloth as smooth as possible during pressing, so there are creases in the cheese, but I've since learned. I had it in a wine refrigerator at about 54 degrees (F) and 70-80% relative humidity, depending on whether it was in the process of chilling. It was in a cake carrier to keep the humidity higher and I had a moist paper towel under the rack it was on (but not touching the cheese). I flipped it daily for the first 10 days or so and then every 2nd or 3rd day after that. I also stayed on top of the mold as it appeared, so was really shocked by how much had grown on that last day before coating. Anyway, we ended up taking thin slices off of every surface of the cheese and then drying it with a fan overnight so that the outside was relatively hard. Then I coated it. It was fine for the first 3 days, but now I'm seeing mold growing again. A few questions:

1. Should we not have trimmed off the mold and re-dried it? Did we do something bad to the cheese by doing this?
2. The first time I flipped it after coating, I could see some oozing, likely from the interior of the cheese. Is that because we cut off the mold and is that an indication that something is terribly awry in the cheese?
3. Now that it's covered with this deep brown chocolate treatment, what should I do about the mold that appeared today? The coating no longer goopy or anything, but it's still on there, so I can't really dry-brush it off and if I use a paper towel and brine, it will likely rub off the cacao coating.
4. Should I not have kept it in the cake carrier and, if that was fine, should I not have kept the moist paper towel in it?
5. I have the lid off the cake carrier now and think I'm going to keep it that way unless you feel that is unwise. RH is currently 75%.

I'm so bummed out about this that I can feel my enthusiasm for trying other pressed cheeses slip away, so please be gentle with me. :-)

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Offline NewbieInNewHampshire

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2022, 01:44:25 AM »
Update: I just gingerly wiped the mold off. Oddly, it was only on the sides of the cheese and it wiped off very easily, so I would say it was growing on the coating rather than on the cheese this time.

Offline paulabob

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2022, 03:46:08 AM »
I would be wary of any recipe coating a cheese with honey.  Rinds are difficult to do, and I'd start with cheeses that don't have them and wax or vacuum pack instead.  In general, you never want to shave off your rind, that's exposing a part of the cheese that might not be closed (many aren't).

My first pressed was a brick cheese.  The b linens in the recipe outcompeted the other molds, and b linens are one of my favorite styles of natural rinds.  Always a great flavor.

Offline NewbieInNewHampshire

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2022, 07:32:35 AM »
I would be wary of any recipe coating a cheese with honey.  Rinds are difficult to do, and I'd start with cheeses that don't have them and wax or vacuum pack instead.  In general, you never want to shave off your rind, that's exposing a part of the cheese that might not be closed (many aren't).

My first pressed was a brick cheese.  The b linens in the recipe outcompeted the other molds, and b linens are one of my favorite styles of natural rinds.  Always a great flavor.

Thanks, paulabob. Do you think I've ruined it and it will be unsafe to eat, or should I keep going with the aging process?

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2022, 07:41:26 AM »
Sorry things aren't going the way you expected.   As paulabob says, aging cheese with a natural rind is tricky.  I consider it at least a tricky as making the cheese in the first place.  What's worse is that available instructions about it are poor.  I don't have time to write a whole big thing, but search around for some of my long posts on the subject for a bit of a beginner's guide.

To answer the questions:

   1. You should never cut the rind.  That rind is the protection for your cheese.  I really don't recommend re-aging your cheese after you have trimmed bits off of it.  Fresh cheese is delicious.  Cut your loses and have delicious cheese now, rather than potentially not-delicious cheese later.  In fact, I always recommend to people to plan to make 5 or 6 shorter aged cheeses to get the process down before they attempt a long aged cheese.  You can count this as #1.  It's all good.

  2. Softening of the paste is a normal part of aging.  For a hard cheese, obviously you don't want it to be that soft.  Very many things could have gone wrong -- all the way from the beginning of the make into the aging.  One of the reasons natural rind aging is tricky is because you have to get a lot of things right in a row.  When you first start, it's easy to get a few things wrong.  If you age it long enough, it will probably go bad when you first start out.  That's why it's best to start with shorter aged cheeses and bail as soon as it seems to be going sideways.

  3. Eat it :-)  It will be delicious!

  4. Humidity is probably the most important thing about aging cheese.  What humidity you want depends on what you are trying to accomplish.  In general, though, the cake carrier is probably a good thing and the moist paper towel was not.  More later.

  5.  Make more cheese!  I know you are bummed and maybe you need to take a break.  However, you *will* get beyond this!  Even though I say aging cheese is tricky, once you get the feel for it, it's very intuitive.  For a lot of experienced makers, it almost seems fool proof.  They forget the difficulties at the beginning and often give poor advice.  Don't worry!

Very quick general advice: Mold and yeast grows on cheese.  When you are doing a natural rind, you *want* mold and yeast growing on your cheese.  However, you need to select what it is that should be growing.  When you see videos and recipes showing you how to avoid mold and yeast on your rinds, you are seeing videos and recipes from people who are inexperienced with aging natural rind cheeses.  Often they have disasters that they may or may not talk about.

When you first make the cheese, there is about a 1 week period when things generally won't grow visibly on the rind.  After that, things start to grow.  If you cover the rind with honey, oil or other things before things grow, you will normally have big problems.  The yeasts tend to burrow into your rind and produce structures that will cause your rind to be in very bad shape.  You should normally only coat your rinds after the initial growth period is over (at about 4 weeks time).  Even then, it's a technique I don't recommend to beginners.   The first 4 weeks are the most difficult for aging cheese and when you get to about 8 weeks there is barely anything to do.  You aren't making it *any* easier for yourself with these techniques.  They are there for other reasons.

You should learn how to age your cheeses out to 4-8 weeks before you start thinking about longer aged cheeses IMHO.  It reduces the learning curve by a lot because you aren't waiting 6 months to see how your cheese turned out.  Once you can do the first 8 weeks easily, everything else will fall into place.  You may consider doing a couple of bloomy rinds first.  The white molds on those cheeses are beasts and they are the easiest things to age.

After that, try to make something like a tomme and age it out to 4-5 weeks.  The main technique is to make sure the cheese is not wet.  It should never be shiny.  Dry it off it is is.  Flip your cheese *every day* and inspect it.  Mold that you don't want shows up before you know it..  I flip my cheeses every day even after 5-6 months.  It takes seconds when things are fine.  It saves your cheese when they aren't fine.

Always wipe all surfaces on your cake carrier down every day so that they are completely dry.  If you have the humidity right, it should fog up over the day and you will be able to dry it easily.  The cheese will not be wet.  If it's too dry, lower the temp a bit.  If it's too wet, raise it a bit.  That's the easy way.  Otherwise don't worry.  If you can't get it moist enough, then possibly you need a smaller container.  If it's always too wet, then you need a bigger container.  It will always be wetter at the beginning.

Your cheese will grow stuff.  If it's white, leave it alone.  If it's blue, then brush it off with a very soft brush or cloth.  If it's black, grey, brown, then your humidity is too high.  Don't panic if it stains the rind.  It's fine, but you will need to reduce the humidity.  If it's orange or pink you need to reduce the humidity ASAP.  It's still fine, though.

Your cheese will smell terrible.  Often like mushrooms and/or farty broccoli.  That's normal for a natural rind.  If it starts to smell like gym socks, then reduce the humidity ASAP.  It's still fine, though.

If you can't control the blue, then give it a wash with a 3% brine solution *once*.  If it goes uncontrollably blue again, then you should probably just wash it off again and eat it.  Next time keep the temperature a little higher and the humidity a bit lower.  If it goes uncontrollably red/pink/orange and smells like sweat socks, then you have made a washed rind cheese.  Eat it up quickly.  Next time keep the humidity *much* lower.  If the rind cracks, then the humidity was too low.  Eat the cheese and use a smaller box with a slightly lower temperature.

At some point you'll have a cheese covered completely in white/grey mold and it will start growing different mold.  This will happen somewhere between 4-6 weeks out usually.  That's the "succession mold".   At this point you have a lot of options including doing nothing and just continuing at you have been doing.  But this is the "winning condition" for aging cheeses.

There is much, much more to this, but these are the basics.  There will be advanced people doing things differently than I've mentioned here.  That's cool.  It's much, much more complicated than I have said.  This is just to get you started.

Or you can vacuum pack or wax your cheeses.  That's boring, though :-)

Edit:  And yes.  This is *not* my "whole big thing" post on the subject...

Offline NewbieInNewHampshire

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2022, 05:11:35 AM »
Sorry things aren't going the way you expected.   As paulabob says, aging cheese with a natural rind is tricky.  I consider it at least a tricky as making the cheese in the first place.  What's worse is that available instructions about it are poor.  I don't have time to write a whole big thing, but search around for some of my long posts on the subject for a bit of a beginner's guide.

To answer the questions:

   1. You should never cut the rind.  That rind is the protection for your cheese.  I really don't recommend re-aging your cheese after you have trimmed bits off of it.  Fresh cheese is delicious.  Cut your loses and have delicious cheese now, rather than potentially not-delicious cheese later.  In fact, I always recommend to people to plan to make 5 or 6 shorter aged cheeses to get the process down before they attempt a long aged cheese.  You can count this as #1.  It's all good.

  2. Softening of the paste is a normal part of aging.  For a hard cheese, obviously you don't want it to be that soft.  Very many things could have gone wrong -- all the way from the beginning of the make into the aging.  One of the reasons natural rind aging is tricky is because you have to get a lot of things right in a row.  When you first start, it's easy to get a few things wrong.  If you age it long enough, it will probably go bad when you first start out.  That's why it's best to start with shorter aged cheeses and bail as soon as it seems to be going sideways.

  3. Eat it :-)  It will be delicious!

  4. Humidity is probably the most important thing about aging cheese.  What humidity you want depends on what you are trying to accomplish.  In general, though, the cake carrier is probably a good thing and the moist paper towel was not.  More later.

  5.  Make more cheese!  I know you are bummed and maybe you need to take a break.  However, you *will* get beyond this!  Even though I say aging cheese is tricky, once you get the feel for it, it's very intuitive.  For a lot of experienced makers, it almost seems fool proof.  They forget the difficulties at the beginning and often give poor advice.  Don't worry!

Very quick general advice: Mold and yeast grows on cheese.  When you are doing a natural rind, you *want* mold and yeast growing on your cheese.  However, you need to select what it is that should be growing.  When you see videos and recipes showing you how to avoid mold and yeast on your rinds, you are seeing videos and recipes from people who are inexperienced with aging natural rind cheeses.  Often they have disasters that they may or may not talk about.

When you first make the cheese, there is about a 1 week period when things generally won't grow visibly on the rind.  After that, things start to grow.  If you cover the rind with honey, oil or other things before things grow, you will normally have big problems.  The yeasts tend to burrow into your rind and produce structures that will cause your rind to be in very bad shape.  You should normally only coat your rinds after the initial growth period is over (at about 4 weeks time).  Even then, it's a technique I don't recommend to beginners.   The first 4 weeks are the most difficult for aging cheese and when you get to about 8 weeks there is barely anything to do.  You aren't making it *any* easier for yourself with these techniques.  They are there for other reasons.

You should learn how to age your cheeses out to 4-8 weeks before you start thinking about longer aged cheeses IMHO.  It reduces the learning curve by a lot because you aren't waiting 6 months to see how your cheese turned out.  Once you can do the first 8 weeks easily, everything else will fall into place.  You may consider doing a couple of bloomy rinds first.  The white molds on those cheeses are beasts and they are the easiest things to age.

After that, try to make something like a tomme and age it out to 4-5 weeks.  The main technique is to make sure the cheese is not wet.  It should never be shiny.  Dry it off it is is.  Flip your cheese *every day* and inspect it.  Mold that you don't want shows up before you know it..  I flip my cheeses every day even after 5-6 months.  It takes seconds when things are fine.  It saves your cheese when they aren't fine.

Always wipe all surfaces on your cake carrier down every day so that they are completely dry.  If you have the humidity right, it should fog up over the day and you will be able to dry it easily.  The cheese will not be wet.  If it's too dry, lower the temp a bit.  If it's too wet, raise it a bit.  That's the easy way.  Otherwise don't worry.  If you can't get it moist enough, then possibly you need a smaller container.  If it's always too wet, then you need a bigger container.  It will always be wetter at the beginning.

Your cheese will grow stuff.  If it's white, leave it alone.  If it's blue, then brush it off with a very soft brush or cloth.  If it's black, grey, brown, then your humidity is too high.  Don't panic if it stains the rind.  It's fine, but you will need to reduce the humidity.  If it's orange or pink you need to reduce the humidity ASAP.  It's still fine, though.

Your cheese will smell terrible.  Often like mushrooms and/or farty broccoli.  That's normal for a natural rind.  If it starts to smell like gym socks, then reduce the humidity ASAP.  It's still fine, though.

If you can't control the blue, then give it a wash with a 3% brine solution *once*.  If it goes uncontrollably blue again, then you should probably just wash it off again and eat it.  Next time keep the temperature a little higher and the humidity a bit lower.  If it goes uncontrollably red/pink/orange and smells like sweat socks, then you have made a washed rind cheese.  Eat it up quickly.  Next time keep the humidity *much* lower.  If the rind cracks, then the humidity was too low.  Eat the cheese and use a smaller box with a slightly lower temperature.

At some point you'll have a cheese covered completely in white/grey mold and it will start growing different mold.  This will happen somewhere between 4-6 weeks out usually.  That's the "succession mold".   At this point you have a lot of options including doing nothing and just continuing at you have been doing.  But this is the "winning condition" for aging cheeses.

There is much, much more to this, but these are the basics.  There will be advanced people doing things differently than I've mentioned here.  That's cool.  It's much, much more complicated than I have said.  This is just to get you started.

Or you can vacuum pack or wax your cheeses.  That's boring, though :-)

Edit:  And yes.  This is *not* my "whole big thing" post on the subject...

Wow, thank you so much! This is incredibly helpful and informative. I really appreciate the time you put into this!!

Offline NewbieInNewHampshire

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2022, 04:37:40 AM »
A little update - I decided to keep it going and see what happens. It went through at least 2 weeks of smelling very much like yeast and when I would open the cave, it smelled like alcohol, but it seems to have gotten past that phase.  Literally  overnight, it went from alcohol/yeast smell to basically very little smell at all. It also has reached some sort of  equilibrium when it comes to mold. It has some dryish, hard-ish white mold on the outside now that doesn't really wipe off, so I'm  treating that as actual rind and leaving it alone for the most part. I sometimes see tiny spots of grayish blue mold appearing and just wipe those off and it seems to be fine. The size has shrunk quite a bit and I can tell the cheese is harder now. It will hit 13 weeks on the last day of January. Not sure if we'll try it at that point or give it an extra week due to slicing off that mold early in the process before we knew better.

It's been really fascinating to watch the various phases it's going through and just watch it transform. My most significant learning from this experience is that (and please correct me if I'm wrong) I really just need to knock the mold back, but don't need to concern myself with entirely eliminating it. In a sense, this first semi-hard cheese has taught me mold-tolerance. :-)

I'll let you know when we taste it. Hope you all have a nice holiday season.

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2022, 08:54:58 AM »
I'd love a picture!  But it sounds just about right.  The yeast smell is pretty normal.  And then it goes exactly as you say -- equilibruim.  You may find that the white goes brown after a while.

Offline NewbieInNewHampshire

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2023, 02:49:32 AM »
I'd love a picture! 
I keep trying to post a picture for you, but get the following message no matter which file format I use: "The attachments upload directory is not writable. Your attachment or avatar cannot be saved."

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2023, 09:29:49 AM »
Yeah.  I think the attachments are no longer working here.  Most of us post on Imgur and link to the picture.

Offline NewbieInNewHampshire

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2023, 01:55:33 AM »
Yeah.  I think the attachments are no longer working here.  Most of us post on Imgur and link to the picture.
Ah, thanks for the tip! Here is a link: https://imgur.com/a/pRrRhTw
Sorry about the shadow!

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2023, 06:47:42 AM »
Looks fantastic to me :-)  You seem to have the same "succession mold" that I get, which I *think* is thicothesium sp (what mycodore was renamed into if my memory hasn't gone astray).

Online MacGruff

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2023, 12:23:47 PM »
I agree. It looks beautiful. Congrats.

Looking forward to a tasting report.

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2023, 01:56:23 PM »
I forgot to give you a cheese!  Around here we say "A Cheese For You" (or AC4U) as a "thumbs up".  It tallies up all your "cheeses" under your name.

Offline NewbieInNewHampshire

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Re: Mold on oil/honey/cacao-rubbed cheese
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2023, 02:12:50 AM »
Haha! Thank you!