Author Topic: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?  (Read 1526 times)

Offline rsterne

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Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« on: December 02, 2022, 07:29:34 PM »
I find myself wondering if you can Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese, such as a Gouda?.... Could you follow the Gouda recipe through to the end of the hot water washing, cook until the curds pass the "grip test", then drain and cheddar the curds, and then mill and salt them before pressing?.... What would you end up with?.... What changes might you have to make to the Gouda recipe before you cheddar?....

Bob
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Offline mikekchar

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Re: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2022, 08:43:53 PM »
Well, yes.  That's what a Colby is :-) (with a cold water wash, that is).  I'm not sure it would make sense to do it with a warm water wash, though).

I think you need to think clearly about what your goals are and what each step does.  When you wash the curds, what you are doing is reducing the lactose level in the whey outside of the curds.  If you use warm water, then the whey outside the curds will be *less dense* than the whey inside the curds.  Also, because the lactose level is lower, the whey will be even *less* dense.  This will pull whey out of the curds.   The overall effect is to remove lactose from the curds.

With less lactose, the culture has less food and so can't acidify as far.  If you do it correctly (for a gouda, for example), the culture will "bottom out" at a pH of about 5.3 - 5.5.  What that means is that it completely runs out of sugar (lactose) and can't produce any more lactic acid.  No matter how much longer you leave it, it won't get any more acidic, because there is no lactose left.  This is why some Gouda (and Parmesan, which is similarly fermented out to completion) is lactose free.

Just to be crystal clear, the purpose for a warm water wash is to pull lactose out of the curd so that the acidity of the curd bottoms out somewhere between 5.3 and 5.5.

Cheddaring has a completely different purpose.  The point of cheddaring is to drain the curds of whey before you put them in the press.  This makes it easier to dry out the cheese, which will allow it to age for a long time without spoiling.  Because the curds are drained in big slabs, the compress under their own weight and texture the curd.  After that you mill and salt the curds and put it in the mold.  This creates a crumbly texture in the cheese.

One of the key points in cheddaring is you are salting the milled curds.  The high salt content slows the culture down to nearly zero action (though, not actually zero, as I have found out).  So you are at about a pH of 5.3 and you salt the curds.  Within the time frame of the early aging of the cheese, this halts the production of lactic acid production and keeps your cheese from getting too acidic, even though there is a lot of lactose left.

From my point of view, these two techniques don't really mesh logically.  With a gouda, you bottom out the fermentation at a high pH, which retains a lot of calcium.  This gives you a sweet, pliable, smooth paste.  With a cheddar, you aggressively drain the cheese and then halt the fermentation with salt at a medium pH.  This loses calcium and gives you a dry, crumbly, textured paste.  If you did both, you'd be working against both goals.  Obviously *something* would happen, but I'm not convinced it would be that valuable.  I think you would be better off doing a washed tome technique.  I think you would get a very similar result with a *lot* less work.

But you will never know without trying it.  Cheese is pretty hard to predict.  There are a lot of very well thought out, reasonably ideas in cheese making that are utterly wrong.  I've learned long ago not to assume that my reasoning is a good predictor of reality.

Offline rsterne

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Re: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2022, 12:39:04 AM »
Mike, as usual you give not only an opinion, but the reasoning behind it.... My goal was to produce a cheddar with a sweeter taste.... I still may try it, but understanding the conflicting processes will be a help in determining what went wrong....  ::)

In any case, AC4U for your time and knowledge....

Bob
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Offline MacGruff

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Re: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2022, 01:51:28 PM »
Mike, you are a treasure. AC4U as well for that explanation.

Offline paulabob

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Re: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2022, 03:03:54 PM »
Bob, you should try it and report back!  Would be fun to see a new recipe.

Mike, confused on Colby being a cheddared recipe.  The makes I've done have no cheddaring and milling phases to them at all.  If you have a different recipe, well, I'd love to try it, I do *love* colby.

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2022, 04:40:24 PM »
paulabob, perhaps I'm being a bit loose with my descriptions  >:D With a traditional Colby, you wash the curds with cool water and then drain.  At that point you hold the curds until you hit a pH of 5.3.  Finally you salt the curds and press.  The difference between that and a Cheddar is that in a Colby you are doing it at relatively low temperatures and you are stirring the curds to prevent matting.  With a Cheddar, you are doing it at a fairly high temp and you are intentionally letting the curds mat to create slabs.  It's similar in that the purpose of draining the curds and holding them is to allow the curds to hit the target pH at which point you salt them immediately to halt acid production.  The Colby process creates texture by essentially case hardening the curds.  After you press the cheese, it will crumbly naturally around the shape of the curds.  The curds are aggressively drained, but they individually hold more moisture than the Cheddar curds because of the wash (cool water means that the curds will take *in* water), and the fact that you've slightly dried out the individual curds as you've let them ferment.

Here's the best video I know about for a traditional Colby production: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZHNV2qTaY0  Ignore the inexplicable Cheddaring that the editor mixed in to the video.  It's not related to the video at all (and I don't think it's even the same creamery :-P).  Also, keep an eye on the temps.  You'll notice they cook the curds to 102F (39 C) and then add cool water until they get to 87.6 F (31 C).  Note how big the curds are.  They are massive.

I've got a recipe that I devised from this video (and tested -- it worked well), but it's not really in a format that other people can use.  If I get a chance I'll post it.

Offline rsterne

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Re: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2022, 04:48:34 PM »
I have had zero success with Colby or it's close cousin Monterey Jack.... Perhaps it's the lack of a pH meter, but they always end up sour tasting (but not bitter), and after 3 of each we decided to concentrate on cheeses we like more....  ::)

However, thank you Mike for explaining the "stirring the drained curds" stage as being a type of cheddaring, that makes complete sense....  ;)

paulabob, I plan on making one of these, but perhaps I may cook the curds to 102, and then use a same temperature wash.... Mike, what do you think of that idea?.... or, should I wash at 86, and then heat to 102 after washing?.... BTW, if you have not read my thread on the Cheddasiago, you should, it's been a spectacular success.... https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,19730.0.html .... Interestingly, it is much more pliable and less crumbly than most Cheddars!....

Bob
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 04:58:28 PM by rsterne »
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Offline paulabob

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Re: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2022, 06:02:29 PM »
Bob, Yes, your chessiago is on my list of ones to try.  You might have more luck with the cheesemaking.com colby, I've done that one without using ph, and it's always turned out just great.

Mike, I'll have to try the traditional method for colby sometime, I have saved your link.  The NEC recipe salts after pressing and not before.

Today I'm doing my first sage derby, another cheddared cheese.

Offline mikekchar

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Re: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2022, 05:09:18 AM »
Cook to 102 and then same temperature wash makes sense to me given your goals.  It should limit the lactose without changing the curd texture too much.  Probably  ;D

Offline rsterne

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Re: Can You Cheddar a Washed Curd Cheese?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2022, 06:02:42 AM »
Thanks, Mike.... If it doesn't work, I won't blame you....  Probably....  ;D

Bob
Cheesemaking has rekindled our love of spending time together, Diane and me!