Trouble with Langres-style cheese

[StuartT]

I am completely new to cheesemaking. For my first attempt, I followed this recipe for Langres-style cheese https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzJ6fPj2Seo

My first attempt used pasteurised, homogenised milk warmed to 20° C and even 16 hours after adding the rennet it had not properly coagulated. So of course when I tried to spoon it into the molds it just drained out through the holes (i.e. there was no real curds and whey).

This is the rennet I used https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C1NLYB5Z (16 drops)
and this is the mesophillic culture I used https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08WPD5FNR (1.2 tsp)
I added 1/4 tsp of calcium chloride (dissolved in a little water) before warming the milk and adding the other stuff.

So I figured maybe the problem was that the milk was pasteurised, or homogenised (it was from a supermarket). So I then bought some raw milk from a local dairy farm and tried again with exactly the same method. This time, it seemed to coagulate a little bit better, but there still wasn't that watery, yellow whey you're supposed to get. I did cut the curd, but the remaining liquid just looked like milk. Result was that when I spooned it into the molds very little liquid drained out and it all just stayed super runny.

Here are some pics and vids to show you how it looked:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/077J90SPb8nmN9YMIdNErO-rQ
https://share.icloud.com/photos/02e2glhzpdhseFQF8EFea0y2w
https://share.icloud.com/photos/092u4JMHcXCxlCe6JMtzjdJYQ
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0812qa9ISg4jtYvPtvsf5PdYA

what am I doing wrong?

Thanks in advance!

[B e n]

From youtube: For production I used:
-4l of pasteurized milk at 65 * C for 30 minutes
-1ml cacl
-mesophilic cultures according to dosage:
 Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetilactis
Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris
-geotrichum candidum acc. dosage
-non-Iodized salt
-annato

Are you following this exactly, including the CaCl and that list of cultures? How long are you letting it acidify before you add the rennet?

Those cultures are going to work much more quickly at 29-30°C, they are going to take a long time to acidify and curdle at 20C.

Does your rennet have a date on it, rennet will start to loose effectiveness if it gets too old.

[StuartT]

Thanks for replying.

He did it at 20° C, so I did the same. I assumed temp was critical, but maybe not.

Unfortunately he does not state the quantities of the various cultures he uses (he just says, acc dosage - which is not very helpful!). The culture I used is in the link in my original post, as is the rennet. Both were brand new.

He also doesn't say how much CaCl2 he uses. It is a solid, so saying 1 ml presumably refers to a solution of CaCl2 - again not very informative unless you provide the concentration of the solution! I googled and 1/4 tsp seemed appropriate for 4 litres of milk.

[broombank]

I would strongly suggest you get your rennet from a reputable dealer. cheeseandyogurt.co.uk  ( Goat Nutrition ) are a family business in Kent with superb service. Your temperature is too low for good coagulation - needs to be at 30C or above . Why are you using a Polish recipe ? If you want reliable on line recipes I suggest www.cheesemaking.com - a new England based site  or any Youtube video by Gavin Webber - he knows what he is doing. OR hint hint - you could buy my beginners book which you can find on the cheesed yogurt site ( Mould to Mould - home cheesemaking made simple) its very important that as a beginner you don't get put off. There are a few  main things to worry about 1) MILK - never use homogenised but as a beginner don't use raw mild either - look for a good quality non homogenised full cream milk preferably organic. I'm sure there should be some available around Oxford. 2) think about your maturation conditions - ensure that for soft cheeses you can supply environments at around 10C for soft/blue cheese and 7C for slowing it down. 3) ensure you can stabilise your temperatures at around 30C for soft cheeses - you can make a Brie/Camembert very easily with minimal equipment - that's the recipe I use to teach. Get cultures and Rennet from a reliable supplier. C&Y sell vegetarian and Animal rennet.  4) use a tried and tested recipe.I don't wish to be rude but why are you staring with Langres?  It's hardly a beginners cheese. 5) use some CaCl3 solution - not solid - get it from cheese and yogurt too. Us about a 1/2 tsp for 10L of milk . 6)  Endure you have accurate scales - I use miniature ones from Salter off Amazon.
Welcome to your cheese making journey. Don't get dispirited - after 3 years I have a constant stream of good cheese with very few failures.

[B e n]

Homogenized milk is fine, lots of people use it. Dose properly with CaCl. Non-homogenized is easier but for some people it just isn't easy to get.

[Aris]

Broombank is right. I think your rennet seems questionable. The ripening temperature also needs to be warmer. My latest lactic set cheese took less than 9 hours to coagulate at 30 c but when I tasted it, it was slightly sour, not good enough so I left it alone until the next morning because I have to sleep anyway. It was ready after almost 17 hours fermenting and coagulating. You can tell it is ready because of the whey separation and the curd separating from the side of the stock pot.

[StuartT]

Many many thanks everyone! This is exactly the kind of help I was looking for.

1. why did I use a Polish recipe? Well, because it was the one I found when I searched. And presumably Polish people are no less competent at cheesemaking than Brits?
2. as for the temperature, I must admit I was surprised he used 20 C, but I assumed maybe that was one of the things that makes a cheese specific (i.e Langres in this case). 30 C sounds much more sensible, so I'll try that next time
3. you seem to disagree a bit on homogenised/non-homogenised, but it sounds like I don't need raw milk (which makes life a little easier!)
4. you didn't mention the mesophilic culture. How critical is that, and did I buy the right one?
5. As for maturation conditions, I have secured a wine fridge which can be controlled to produce stable temperatures between 7 C and 12 C. I know because I have been running it for a week with a bluetooth temperature probe inside. I have also drilled a few airholes in some tupperware boxes with cheese mats inside.

Although my technique was faulty, I have nevertheless managed to get a couple of cheese-shaped objects from the curds (after much effort, cheesecloth and squeezing). So I am going to see if they will actually turn into cheese! (see images below)

Thanks again people. I really appreciate it!

https://share.icloud.com/photos/01cTxff4piQZkFajAqycQ7zBw
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0d8BB2WZA_2gplaoZVcRlOLxg
https://share.icloud.com/photos/02bt43dhd0cYJiX0WqYh0_Qog

[Aris]

That looks good but if it coagulated properly, you don't have to squeeze the curds and I don't even use a cheesecloth. I just ladled the curds into the mold.

[StuartT]

That looks good but if it coagulated properly, you don't have to squeeze the curds and I don't even use a cheesecloth. I just ladled the curds into the mold.

Yes,  must admit I don’t hold out much hope, but as this is my first attempt I didn’t want to throw it all in the bin. I’ll see how it is after a couple of months.

I watched some of Gavin Webber’s videos now as Broombank suggested and I now have a much clearer idea of what to do.

[broombank]

I think you are doing fine - asking the right questions-  Well Done !    This is a steep learning curve and you will throw out quite a bit at the beginning. It is true that you can coagulate homogenised milk but if you can fine some pasteurised non- homogenised you will get a much firmer curd. Probably Waitrose would oblige but not necessarily. Do a web search for local dairies. Paradoxically the stronger the curd the more whey will be retained and the more suitable it will be for SOFT  French cheeses like Langres. As Aris says draining in a perforated mould is quite enough - you don't need to press for this sort of cheese. I have absolutely nothing against Poland - its just that you have one of the best suppliers in Europe in Kent and they are OBSESSIONAL about quality - your culture came from them and it is fine for a soft cheese. As you get more experience you can choose specific bacteria most suited for the task in hand. The Cheese and Yoghurt making website www.cheeseandyogurt.co.uk will tell you what is in the culture. Some have Lactobacillus Lactis and lactobacillus Cremoris - those are the two basic ones - some cultures like Flora Danica also add a gas producing bacteria which will make small holes in your cheese. Don't try to run before you have learned to walk - keep it simple. I started with Cheddar - probably the worst possible place but it taught me a lot. Just be a bit careful if you made your cheese with raw milk as the high ph of soft cheeses makes them more liable to rogue bacterial contamination. If it smells bad don't eat it. ( excluding hints of ammonia which are normal) Keep posting as there are lots of people willing to offer help.

[broombank]

don't wish to be intrusive but here is a dairy near Oxford selling unhomogenised pasteurised milk     https://www.milkandmore.co.uk/Dairy/c/Milk

[mikekchar]

Domowyser is sometimes around here (the person who posted the youtube video -- he uses a different user name here, but I can't remember what it is).  He *definitely* knows what he's doing.  Basically his videos are *by far* the best on the internet for that type, IMHO (dramatically better than Gavin's if you are interested in making cheese accurate to the style).

20 C is plenty warm enough to bottom out the pH in 16-20 hours and is fine for a semi-lactic (which Langres is).  30 C would be OK too.  It kind of depends on what you are trying to do.  The lower temperature will produce smaller curds than the higher temp.  Keep in mind that this is a semi lactic.  It is *not* coagulated by rennet.  There is not enough rennet there to coagulate the curd.  This is an acid coagulated cheese (i.e. lactic coagulated).  The rennet is simply there to help dry out the curd a bit and help it drain.

Honestly, looking at his video, his cheese is a bit more coagulated than I would have expected.  He's also using 1/10 the normal rate of rennet (I would usually use 1/4), but I also know that he uses raw milk and I suspect this is where the trouble is occurring.  If you are going to use pasteurised, homogenised milk, I would definitely up the rennet rate by quite a lot.

Just keep in mind that Domowyser is a pro cheese maker doing videos for amateurs.  His videos often have an expectation that you understand the process.  While I think they are better from a cheese making perspective than Gavin's, it's hard to match Gavin for beginner friendliness :-)

[StuartT]

Ok, thanks to your helpful advice, I have now achieved success. You correctly pointed out that the temperature was the problem. I found some non-homogenised, organic milk at Waitrose and did everything at 30 C (instead of 20 C). I used a water bath to maintain the temperature during the culture ripening and after the rennet. My curds were much better this time and the whey was a translucent, straw colour as it should be (not milky like my previous attempts).

Here's how it looked https://share.icloud.com/photos/09ai-whP0azWTf-zXNJHmeP-A

I am now draining the curds in the mould naturally (no pressing). This has been draining 12h now. Any idea how long it might need before I have a solid cheese I can salt and put in the ripening fridge?

https://share.icloud.com/photos/019yatbVaXNCUR84Tv03YnMrg

[broombank]

excellent - glad Waitrose obliged. You need to turn the cheese in the mould by turning it onto your hand and 'catching' the curd before transferring it back to the mould upside down. This facilitates the drainage. Turn it every couple of hours. Don't worry about dropping it - it's a technique and it requires practice. You will gradually see the shape forming and eventually you can turn it out onto a board. I find paper towel initially is helpful. You need to salt it when its is solid - one side at a time You are already twelve hours in which means you curd will be a bit acid. Taste to see if it's sharp. Treat this as an experiment not perfection - next time turn it after two hours or so. mikekchar is absolutely right about the lactic/rennet set balance in this cheese . Having not made Langres myself i'm not sure about timings. Are you working to a recipe ?
Remember that what you end up with will probably not be what you intended but will be interesting and edible in itself.

[mikekchar]

Looks absolutely perfect!  I do a lot of lactic cheeses, though I've never done Langres style.  I agree with broombank.  When it is solid enough to handle, it's good to salt.  Be a bit careful with the amount, though.  I like *at most* 1.5% of the weight of the cheese at salting and often go as low as 1.0%, depending on my mood.  It's easy to over salt these kinds of cheeses. And you should definitely weigh the salt, because a small difference in the amount of salt can make a big difference in the final product.

Having said that, lactic cheeses are pretty forgiving on when to salt because you have mostly bottomed out on acidity anyway (the cultures don't work very well at low pH/high acidity).  Sometimes if it's having trouble draining, I'll salt a bit early just to draw out the moisture.  Broombank's comment of salting one side at a time is also a good idea.  I actually usually wait 12 hours between salting -- salt one side, wait 12 hours, then salt the other side.  Remember to cut the amount of salt in half for each salting :-)  The reasoning is that if you have geotrichum, etc in the milk, you want to keep the overall salt level low so that it can get established on the rind.  This can also be a good reason for delaying the salting a bit (the yeasts can get started, though 24 hours is usually enough).