Big blue monster

[John@PC]

Nice Danbo!  A blueC4Y .  I myself like to wrap my leftover blues with something less "occlusive" than vac bags like 2-ply cheese paper or with parchment or wax paper then saran.  This provides a bit more air exchange than high-barrier film and you should get additional aging even in the fridge.   

[LoftyNotions]

I plan on letting the curd for my next blue sit overnight. That's how the creameries do it.

That's how the first day hard curd is done on Gorgonzola Picantes.

Larry

[Danbo]

Thanks for the comments! :-)


I tried to get the curd dry enough for making spaces but I realize that it should be even more dry. On the other hand I am very happy with the smooth, soft and spreadable consistency of this cheese. I guess it's about finding the sweet spot.


I was only aged 4 weeks. If aged for 8-10 weeks it would have been like cream cheese... ;-)



I was thinking about the advice to leave the curds over night... What about PH? Doesn't the PH get too low? Does the final cheese become dry, or is it just a matter of time before the Roqueforti makes it mushy?


I vacuum packed it so that  shouldn't worry about cross contaminating my other cheeses. I guess that I could just wrap them in paper, store them in a box and give them some air from time to time.


:-) Danbo

[LoftyNotions]

Final pH on the inner curd for Gorgonzola ends up at between 4.6 and 4.8. I wouldn't characterize the consistency as soft. It will cut and maintain its form, but is "mushable" onto a cracker. It cuts easily with a butter knife. It's not oozy.

I've personally had bad experience with ammoniation from either letting my blues age too long, or storing them wrapped in anything that lets some air in. I think blues age well in vacuum bags, it's just that the blue color doesn't develop any further. Maybe I'm overly sensitive to ammonia. Try it both ways and see which method you prefer.

One thing I don't think we've considered when we're discussing aging times is which P. roqueforti strain we're using. Danisco has 6 different strains with different growth rates, flavors (strong vs. mild), colors, cheese shelf life, consistency, etc. To date, I've been using the PV strain, which is very fast with a strong blue taste. This typically gives me excellent mold development in the open structure inside my Gorgonzolas in a short time and is probably why I've settled on 5 to 7 weeks for my cut date. If using a milder slower culture, I'd probably have to lengthen my aging time out. Using that strain I can't imagine letting a blue age 3 or 4 months. It'll be interesting to try a slower milder type some day.

It's all one giant balancing act. Curd just firm enough to provide some internal space, but not so firm that the cheese won't hold together. Aged just long enough to give us the sharp bite we want, but not so long that there are flavor defects.

Danisco's pdf is attached.

Larry

[Al Lewis]

Thanks for the comments! :-)


I tried to get the curd dry enough for making spaces but I realize that it should be even more dry. On the other hand I am very happy with the smooth, soft and spreadable consistency of this cheese. I guess it's about finding the sweet spot.


I was only aged 4 weeks. If aged for 8-10 weeks it would have been like cream cheese... ;-)



I was thinking about the advice to leave the curds over night... What about PH? Doesn't the PH get too low? Does the final cheese become dry, or is it just a matter of time before the Roqueforti makes it mushy?


I vacuum packed it so that  shouldn't worry about cross contaminating my other cheeses. I guess that I could just wrap them in paper, store them in a box and give them some air from time to time.


:-) Danbo

If you watch the video I posted and listen to the times they are using they are way out there.  I believe they wait 5 weeks to pierce.  My only concern about leaving the curd overnight is being able to smooth it.  Just hoping it retains enough moisture for that.  The ones in the video certainly do.  Also, I've been trying an experiment where I wrapped mine in a single layer of butter muslin, 90 TPI, and placed it on the bottom shelf.  So far the mold hasn't migrated at all.

[Danbo]

Thanks Larry and Al,

I'm using Choozit PV fot Big Blue's baby brother. Which PR was used in Big Blue I don't know (it just said PR).

I actually think that the ageing time was OK. It tastes very well and is easy to spread. The only problem was that the curd was too compact.

I think that I will see how Big Blue's baby brother will develop and then make a blue with a drier curd.

:-) Danbo

[Al Lewis]

I use PV due to the color and ripening time.  Best one I ever had was the packets from Mad Millies. LOL  Don't know what the strain is but it worked great!!  The one they sell now is a mixture of cultures.  Haven't tried that one.

[John@PC]

I've personally had bad experience with ammoniation from either letting my blues age too long, or storing them wrapped in anything that lets some air in. I think blues age well in vacuum bags, it's just that the blue color doesn't develop any further. Maybe I'm overly sensitive to ammonia. Try it both ways and see which method you prefer.

I've got a big blue aging now and will try both ways (paper and vacuum bagging).  I was mainly talking about allowing air permeation to occur for blues (or leftover portions) that could stand to age longer and putting in fridge to help slow things down.  I have had issues with ammoniation as well and still learning how to prevent and if bagging does it then bagging it will be .

[Al Lewis]

Not sure why John but for some reason they only recommend wrapping blues in foil.  Doesn't make sense to me as the factories in England wrap them in paper prior to shipping so they will continue to ripen.  Only thing that makes sense is that perhaps the thin foil used creates an air tight boundary that stops ripening.  Vacuum bagging, I would think, would stop the process as the whole reason or piercing is to get air to the mold so it will grow.  No air, no more mold growth?  H-K-J would be the guy to ask as he makes about one of these a week and has done pretty much everything you can do with a stilton.  He's my go to guy for making stilton.

[LoftyNotions]

John, yes, if you need more blue (or mold of any kind) development, paper is the way to go. I keep my Reblochons in paper in my main refrigerator as long as I can. When they start ammoniating I take them out of the paper and vac bag them. It seems to extend the shelf life by a bit.

Al, The Stilton video is really good. It'd be nice if they gave away all their secrets, like temperature and humidity, but what can you do? The interesting takeaways for me were:

1. The 5 week aging before puncturing, and moving the cheese from room to room during that time. Would it be safe to speculate that each succeeding room gets drier that the last? My understanding of Stiltons is that the gnarly mahogany rind is one of the defining characteristics. So with a Stilton, you totally develop the outside before allowing any internal mold growth? There is probably some lypolytic and proteolytic activity going on at the same time, but pretty limited until the insides get air.

2. They mentioned that the best ages for eating are between 12 and 14 weeks, and they ship their cheeses to reach their final destinations within that time frame. So they'd want them to still be aging and developing mold during shipping, thus the paper wrap. That basically gives a 7 to 9 week window for mold development.

3. The milled curd is salted.

4. The sides get punctured.

Gorgonzolas, on the other hand, get dry salted externally after being formed, brine washed several times during affinage, and are perforated on top at 7 days, and the bottom is perforated at 14 days. From the Gorgonzola video I watched, it looks like they are aged at about 4°C (39°F) for 60 to 90 days and then wrapped in foil and shipped.

So what I'm doing isn't really following what the video showed, since my affinage temperature runs about 13°C (55°F) and I age for a total of 6 to 7 weeks before bagging.

I'm really interested in everyone's comments on this. It's a great learning experience for me.

There is a lot of process variation that makes for interesting differences in "blue".

Larry

[OzzieCheese]

I think that the whole Blue experience has been one of slow discovery but a very enjoyable one.  My challenge is to now reproduce what I did the first time.  John knows of my issues with my 'Cave' but basically put, the fridge didn't have any defrost cycle and would always form a sheet of ice on the back wall. And with the new wooden shelves actually caused a temp stratification in my cave where the top would be as high as 15-16 Deg C and the bottom where my Blue was 'Blueing' was only 8 DegC.  So, I was in a bit of a pickle where although the ripening container was closed - therefore keeping the moisture in, the temperature was cooler than expected.  Recently having got rid of the 'Cave' MkII and purchased 'Cave' MKIII (on that actually works properly) I am wondering if my first was a fluke !! Things to ponder. 

-- Mal

[LoftyNotions]

Mal, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat, or in this case, get a tasty blue cheese.

Larry

[John@PC]

Need some help finding the link to Al's video.  This thread is just too darn long .

[Danbo]

Hi John,


It's this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unVdU4MgRAA


:-) Danbo

[John@PC]

Thanks Danbo.  I watched it a couple of times and found it quite interesting and helped me visualize Larry's comments.  As I'm trying to get "seriously blue" these days and since I can't do a mind-meld with H-J-K resources like these really help.  I'm still waiting to hear back from my Clemson blue cheese contact but so far crickets.

The piercing machine and pattern were esp. interesting to me.  It looked like the spacing was pretty close (1" or so) and the needles are angled so that after 360 deg. turning you get a grid hole pattern with maybe 1/2" spacing.  Googled up this video of a similar more automated machine that shows the process better.