Wannabe-lactic cheese fail (Updated: Success!!)

[kookookachoo]

Hello, everyone!

I was going to start out making chevre yesterday, I had made a batch of feta the other day, as I'm going out of town for a couple of weeks in the middle of April.  I didn't want to make a longer-aging cheese that needed babysitting.  I have a friend coming over while we're on vacation, to turn the cheeses I have & to let me know what the humidity, temps, etc are.  She, very graciously, offered to do this, in exchange for dog-sitting for her. 

Anyway,  I thought, what the hey, I'll add in some PC & Geo 13 (only one I have) & see if turns into something. 

I followed the fresh lactic cheese directions from NE Cheesemaking, but added the geo & PC, rennet, etc.  I did add CaCl, though, as I'm using store-bought cow's milk. 

Her instructions were to heat at 86F, but I heated mine only until 78, as I have notes here from one of the board recipes for semi-lactic.  Anyway, it seemed like everything went well.  I had to split the 2 gallons between two SS pots, as a friend borrowed my 20 gallon one to sterilize her canning jars. 

Ok, for some weird reason, both "behaved" differently in the pots!!

These go with the photos:
1) pot #1, this is how it looked at 3am when I opened it to check (it was about 9 hours into it)
2) pot #2, same time
3) how the curds went..had to put them in muslin & cheesecloth bags, as they weren't whole curds,
4) after considerable whey had drained.

Ok, I really thought you could ladle them off WHOLE!  Mine did for a bit, but they disintegrated into thick-yogurt consistency, or ricotta-like.  The kitchen smells like a cross between sour cream & ladneh.  So, now the bags are just draining, since they are too wet & mushy to ladle into my chevre molds.

What did I do wrong?  Are they still salvageable?  Will the "globs" firm up enough so I can place them in brine or will they disintegrate?  Should I just pitch the whole thing & start over?  I don't know why I always have a hard time with the lactic cheeses...even the chevres I've made in the past are like this, too.  Is my kitchen too warm?  I let the pots sit at room temp overnight..but I checked a couple of times & through the night, it had stayed between 80-83F in there, would this have made a difference?  I scooped up a small amount & tasted it, it's a bit sour-creamy tasting, not salty, just mildly sour.  Do I have any hope of turning this into something or should I just scoop them all up in jars & label them sour cream? 

[kookookachoo]

So I decided to make Chaource from 200 Easy...book, plus checking the posts here, too.  After this initial failure, that really made me sad, bugged me, then made me determined to try again...

I was a bit worried & said as much to some of you here, too, that I would be going out of town & who would turn my cheeses?  Fortunately, a friend said she would (and she did a great job, too), although it was a bit of a bear to talk her into turning the mold covered cheeses in the cave/fridge.  She was just revolted at the thought, somehow & no argument of mine, even though they were logically & intellectually sound, could convince her..finally, she gave in, as long as she wore latex gloves.  Anyway, I had her take photos everyday, after turning, to send to me (my babies were maturing so nicely!).

It was funny, too, when we got back from vacation (at almost 3am), my husband was the FIRST to check the cheeses, after he unloaded the bags!      

So, the next day, I couldn't wait..cheese & marmalade for breakfast.  I have to say, I was pleasantly surprised, delighted (I actually cooed, after the first sinful bite!).  This is going to be another household staple. 

Creamy, with just a little ooey-gooey right-under-the-rind goodness!  Actually got a bit gooey'er the longer it sat on the counter. 

I used the chevre molds, after I ladled them in the butter muslin first, curds were too wet otherwise. Thank you so much, my cheese gurus, for your invaluable help!

Without further ado, the photos...

(EDIT: added a photo of day 4/5 after I had taken the cheeses from the chevre mold & they spent a few days in the cave, lid of the tupperware partly opened...I was really worried about the orange'ing of the skin at this point)

[darius]

Cool! I may try that one... some day!

[Tomer1]

You know when looking at your picture I think I can taste the cheese, Its wonderful!

[kookookachoo]

Will this be your particular bullet to bite, Darius?    I have a feeling you have a list.  Tomer, it really was good, if I may say so.  I was really sweating the "slip skin", but, this time, I think it's beginner's luck.  I'm off to the kitchen to make some cheese tonight...my request for mother's day is I get to do whatever at home, without anyone complaining of the smell..they automatically assumed this meant making cheese. 

[iratherfly]

One of my favorite cheeses to make and enjoy. Super creamy and nice. yours look fantastic. Congrats!

By the way, is the cheese in the photo standing on a knitting canvas???

[kookookachoo]

One of my favorite cheeses to make and enjoy. Super creamy and nice. yours look fantastic. Congrats!

By the way, is the cheese in the photo standing on a knitting canvas???

Indeedy!  I mostly use mine as "bottoms" to reinforce the bags & purses I make.  I actually had the cheeses on top of these AND on top of bamboo skewers that I cut to fit the aging box.  I think, next time, I will omit the plastic canvas, though.  Not too sure yet.  It has helped drain the whey pretty good, though it was a bit of a pain to flip, wipe off, change skewers, etc. but definitely worth it after all is said & done! 

I have to say, I like chaource more than crottin.  I had to taste chaource again a couple of weeks ago for a before-mine comparison...I had forgotten how good it is!  With the added almost-instant gratification, it's rewarding, too.    

I'm going to read the other chaource topics tomorrow to see if I can add to/make better my make notes. 

[darius]

Steff, I have a possible supplier for goat milk although he is quite a distance away. I hope by August or September to be able to get his milk and play around with several cheeses, including a charouce.

So many cheeses, so little time, LOL!

[Cheese Head]

kookookachoo, on your first post/batch, there's some info here on Lactic Acid Coagulation which says it can take much longer than the 9 hours when the photos taken to get a good curd set and from the consistency it looks like the pH was not yet low enough.

Lactic Acid Coagulation is very temp sensitive, what was the temp in the morning of each pot? Your 2 gallons split between two pots look like considerably different milk level heights and thus considerably different shapes, maybe one had much more surface area than the other and thus cooled more and slowed down the amount of lactic acid created than the other batch.

Also, in my American Neufchatel making batches I've had a batch come out with that consistency, worked out OK, just needed more draining time in bag.

[kookookachoo]

John, all in all, it was a total of 16 hours.  When I checked it, took the pic, I put the lid back on & waited until later in the day to start ladling it.  Second time around I waited 20 hours (should have went to 24?)...room (my kitchen) hovered right around 74-76.  The pots were 16qt & 10 qt sizes.  I ended up with so much, though, so I might just go ahead & do a gallon & a quart of milk next time, too.  Thankfully, a couple of friends were more than willing to take some of the round cheeses that were done, after they had ripened. 

Second batch was at 16 days, maybe I should shoot for 3 weeks next time?  I'm trying to figure out where I'm at, with the flavor preference.  I used meso, PC, geo 13 & a pinch of PLA, too.  I alternated between closing the lid all the way, to leaving it cracked open (wedged a skewer across) the last 5 days.  My friend sent me photos & the humidity never did get up higher than 90%, though.  It didn't seem to have any adverse effect that I was fearing...they were creeeeamy.   

My next batch, I'm thinking of omitting PC, just using meso, geo & PLA....what do you think, guys?  I also have mycodore, should I add that, too, or would it beat off the other guys?  My hubby tells me I should stick with my make notes, since it turned out good...but, I wanted to see if another batch, made differently, would have a better flavor, etc. 

Anyways, thanks for the input, much appreciated!

[iratherfly]

My next batch, I'm thinking of omitting PC, just using meso, geo & PLA....what do you think, guys?  I also have mycodore, should I add that, too, or would it beat off the other guys?

I would actually omit the geo and not the PC.  PLA already contains geo so if you put extra geo you would double up on it for no reason and you will get too much of it.  I wouldn't omit the PC because it is needed to keep age this cheese and give it the flavor profile, texture and aroma is has. Besides, it gives it a rind that is dry to the touch. Geo alone would make it kind of gooey on the outside.   As for Mycodore - great thinking flavor/aroma-wise but it's not going to happen because cylindrocarpon (Mycodore) is extremely acid and salt sensitive and this cheese would not provide growing environment for it; especially with all that other stuff going on.  (believe me, I have tried several times and failed until I read the Mycodore spec sheet and was like "what on earth was I thinking?")

That being said, Chaource opens the door to many other cow semi lactics like Epoisses, Langres, St Marcellin Etc. There are even semi lactic bries out there.  You can be creative and age it differently too.

For your next make, don't count it by hours. Milk at 69F can take 20+ hours ant in a room that is 73F can take 12 but there are many parameters related to this such as how fresh is it, how was it pasteurized, etc.  Use the traditional method instead: Wait and look for: 1) Either the curd had began seperating from the sides of the pot/vat or there is a long crack (or cracks) going through the curd 2) There is a 1/2" layer of whey topping the curd (not more, not less, this is a tell-tell sign of the right acidity)

What Meso/PC/Geo are you using?

[kookookachoo]

Got it on the geo, thanks! 

I still have about 5 packets of the meso (generic) culture I had gotten for Christmas, it's from NE Cheesemaking, the PC also from them, too. The Geo 13 & PLA, are Choozit.  Also, in my "kit" (I think my "Santa" just got me all the cultures he could think of in the list) includes M4002, LH100, corynebacteriae, MD89 (I always forget to look this up!  I have FD, thermo (their "stock"-C2 & C201) from NE Cheesemaking, too.  I know they're not what you asked about, but, I might as well get that all out..what I've got at home.  I know, dangerous stuff to have in a "newbie"'s possession, right?     The MM4002, MD89, coryneacteriae (the packet says LR LYO 2D) are as yet unopened, since I don't really know what cheese to use them in, to be honest.  I think my "Santa" was a little overzealous! 

I'm interested in the St Marcellin, Yoav.  Is it along the same lines..as far as creaminess, texture as Chaource?  I'm kind of leaning toward that.  I have to say, I had some Camembert in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago (I haven't had it since probably my college years) & it's "too" buttery for my liking.   

[iratherfly]

You can probably get St. Marcellin at any respected cheese shop, including the cheese section of most Whole Foods. It's a gentle, delicate cheese with gooey insides. It is small and has very thin rind. It is easy to find - it is the tiny one sold in ceramic dishes!  It is just too delicate to just sell and ship loose.

The MA4000 series (By series I mean also MA4001 and MA4002) are farmstead cultures. They are a mix of mesophilic and thermophilic strains and are the perfect starter for a Tomme.

The MD series (MD89, MD11 etc) are a diacetyl. It is responsible for giving cheese some of the buttery aspect of flavor and texture, as well as build up gas that gives you small eyes in the cheese paste.  It's a mesophilic but you can't use it alone because it isn't strong enough. Add it to other bacteria starter where you want more of this character in the cheese. Just don't over-do it. Remember that some starters like Fl-Dn, MA4000 series and MM100 series already contain some diacetyl so you would be doubling up on this aspect if you add MD89.  Still, I like to add it when I do tangy cheese like lactic goats sometimes.  I would never add it to Fl-Dn because it would be way overly buttery and not nice anymore.
LH100 is a simple farmstead culture too.
LR is B.Linen strain that is not too stinky and not too red.  It is aromatic and probably best used to wash Tommes and alpine style cheeses because it takes a while to show up (so I wouldn't use it for a 3-week cheese)
I am not sure what their C201 cultures and such are - I don't know why they had to give it their own name instead of sticking to the conventions. I think these are thermo B and thermo C versions.

Generally speaking, if you do not intend on using cultures don't buy them yet.  They do expire so no point in this. Also, as you learn to make more cheese you will find out which cultures work best for you.

You must have been a very good girl for Santa to go out of his way like that!

[kookookachoo]

I've learned that Santa usually has an agenda when it comes to this.     And it's usually something that would benefit him.  lol  Like "my" wine & beer making kits a couple of years back.  Not that I mind, of course, I enjoy them, too. 

So, basically, I can only use the MM4002 for cheeses that specifically ask for both meso & thermo?  I have a bunch of cultures in the freezer right now, I made from the starter one I got from NE, too..their "C1" (lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis, lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris), I made a few days ago.  Apparently it's a "generic" type.  Their C201 is:  streptococcus thermophilus, lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus, lactobacillus helveticus, according to the site.  I'm starting a notebook about what specific cheese makes need which specific bateria, etc.  I've just been reading as I go along..like if I'm making Caerphilly, I've been reading about it.  I'm going to make another batch of Chaource tomorrow, so I'm getting my ducks in a row tonight, so to speak. 

What is your go-to recipe for Chaource?  Do you vary them every time you make, or use the same recipe each time?

By the way, thanks so much for all this info, I honestly get better info here than the "used to make Edam, Gouda, Cheddar, Monterey...." etc.  It clicks more here, somehow, especially how you guys explain it! 

[iratherfly]

No, no... You can use the MA4002 for almost anything. It's great with Tommes, also with washed rind styles. I am just saying that for lactic and bloomy types I prefer MM100 and don't really need the thermophilic.

The C1 description sounds like Danisco Choozit MA11 thru MA19 series. It's like MM100 minus the diacetylactis, so basically if you combine the "C1" and your MD89 you get MM100. (close enough)
The "C201" - not sure what is it (TA82???), sounds like a strictly thermophilic, probably used for yogurts or traditional mozzarella and other pasta pilata. I am not sure. I am sure Sailor, Linuxboy or Francois know (I mainly do bloomy, tomme and washed rind, not so much cooked curd warm/thermophilic type of cheese).

I make Chaource just like I make Crottin, only cow's milk! The only difference is the aging process. I try to give it hay or straw and maybe add some yeast or light B.Linen strain to get richer flavor out of it.  Cultures like PLA are perfect for it, they have the yeast, geo and light arimatic B.Linen in them already so that's all you need. Just replace your geo with it. Keep the PC and starter culture as usual.