Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard

[arkc]

I found this on the cheesemaking.com website - under trouble shooting. 
There are obviously other professional cheese makers who also think an excess of starter can cause acidity and consequently lack of moisture.

DRY
Corkiness, curdiness, excessive hardness.
Possible Causes Lack of moisture due to excess acidity, excess rennet, excess stirring, too long drying in a warm room.

Possible Solutions At ripening reduce acid development. Reduce starter, add rennet sooner, reduce amount of rennet, decrease heating temperature, keep acid level low.

annie

[iratherfly]

Thank you all for an invigorating discussion.

It's unfortunate that this dialogue is relegated to this Epoisses thread for I believe a larger audience would do well to ponder the points and perspectives presented here.

This helps me focus more on what I am trying to achieve in my makes.

Sometimes it's good to be a lurker. 

-Boofer-

Ah Jade, you kill me. I think you are right. As I wrote this I thought maybe it deserves its own thread? This whole discussion is so strange because it brings an entirely new problem in the 5,000 years of cheesemaking: Abundance. We know too many cheeses and try to make so many types of them with no relation to our own regional and social circumstances (or, maybe this is the relation - we are living in a global reality now so this is what we socially want and can do).  We have an endless library of cultures to work with and good variety of milks to own.  We absorb so much information about the making of so many different cheeses in such short time.  We can't avoid trying to invent as well as confuse some of our element and overblanding them a bit.  A few decades ago this would have been impossible. Cheese enjoyed its success because a cheesemaker would dedicate their career to focus on one, two, maybe three cheeses -with a single source of milk and by making the best with a limited selection of cultures; but it would be their own home culture and no one else had it or knew how to work it.  It's difficult being traditional in our global reality. Modernism is good to most aspects of cheese but the core of this discussion is the question of where to stop and say  "I have enough. I am adding nothing more to this".

[Oude Kaas]

Great post, couldn't have said it better Yoav!!!

[Helen]

I love those discussions that actually make you think about what you are doing.

Thanks to all contributors!

[dthelmers]

Yoav,
what you said was so well stated, so eloquent. I've copied it into my own personal cheese files. Perhaps you would edit this into an article for the wiki section? I'd certainly like to see it readily available.
Dave in CT

[Boofer]

Yoav,
what you said was so well stated, so eloquent. I've copied it into my own personal cheese files. Perhaps you would edit this into an article for the wiki section? I'd certainly like to see it readily available.
Dave in CT

Hey...what he said! 

When I began learning about making cheese two and half years ago, I had Ricki's book as an incentive and early guide. I figured that with all of these cheese styles in the book, I'd better get started. No, I didn't feel I had to make them all. I did feel a pull to try quite a few recipes though.

Over time and with meager successes and outright failures (some recorded herein), my perspective has evolved to the point that I really want to narrow my focus and concentrate on fine-tuning a few select styles. My picks have been stripped down to Beauforts, Tommes, and Goutalers. All hard or semi-hard styles. At this point, I have completed 3 makes of each style. I am waiting patiently for their affinage to complete. If I can get to a point where they are consistent in quality and memorable in taste, I will have gained some measure of satisfaction.

-Boofer-

[arkc]

Boofer,

Did you see my post that started "I think I can, I think I can", etc.  I am very much
into the mode of doing and not talking about doing.  Chemistry is great, BUT,
doing is supreme!!!

I am having a great time 'butting my head against a brick wall".  But I know from
many years experience with learning new tricks, that the only way to do
it, is to do it! 

I have found a great resource of help with cheese, albeit not free, but great.

My next challenge is going to be the 'almighty Beaufort'.  Actually, I have ordered
the milk and will start my first next Wednesday.  I have a couple of Gruyere types
that I started last year in the frig still.  But the 'Big B' sounds to be the best of the type.
And for people that like brick walls,  it is probably the best challenge. 

If I may, I would like to ask you questions about your experiences to date.  That
is, after I get started.

annie

[Boofer]

Boofer,

Did you see my post that started "I think I can, I think I can", etc.  I am very much
into the mode of doing and not talking about doing.  Chemistry is great, BUT,
doing is supreme!!!

I did see that post. I agree. Repetition builds confidence, improves quality in both the cheese and in the process, and fills those idle hours staring at the empty Dutch press. 

If I may, I would like to ask you questions about your experiences to date.  That
is, after I get started.

Whatever knowledge I may have to share, you are welcome to it. I would also suggest picking Paul's brain...the up-and-coming guru on rind development.

-Boofer-

[iratherfly]

Thanks so much Dave (in CT) and Boofer.  Boofer, I would love to hear more about your tommes.

My focus is on bloomies and Trappist cheeses, but about 25% of what I make are wild tommes.  Tomme is a magical platform onto which you can build a million different personal styles. Currently have a very wild raw Jersey Tomme aging with a little surprise in it. I'll show you all when it's done... (2+ months)

[Boofer]

Currently have a very wild raw Jersey Tomme aging with a little surprise in it.

Wow, a surprise! The suspense is killing me.    Come on, give us a hint!

I agree about the Tommes. Between you, linuxboy, Paul, and others, a lot of inspiration has flowed across the pages of this forum. I am looking forward to starting an all-raw Tomme in two weeks. I still need to buy some cultures for it. I am excited about its prospects. It will be #4 for that style. I'm thinking it should get a bit of fur on its rind. My #1 was a simple make that I vacuum-sealed rather quickly. #2 developed a beautiful golden b. linens rind. And #3 was washed with a Moscato.

-Boofer-

[iratherfly]

Yumm.... What types of cultures do you need to get? Usually a farmstead culture is enough for it. Then for the rind you are talking about maybe mycodore and some geo, a little yeast. It's more about getting great affinage in these.  I also do one that is vacuumed "drunken cow" style which is really easy to make and delicious. I aged the last batch 5 months and it was fantastic.

[ArnaudForestier]

First, Boof, thanks for the kind note above.  I still feel - and am - very much a neophyte, and once again have to lend my nod to Pav, Francois, Sailor.  I've learned so much from them. 

Yoav, on the mycodore, I thought about this one for a long while.  I used it on my first rounds of tommes, but as I'm concentrating on Savoie-style cheeses, did raise the question on the use of mycodore with Pav and Francois. The consensus was, mycodore doesn't really belong in an alpine-tomme; more, pyrenees. Just an fyi, if wanting to do alpine-style tommes. 

Interesting discussion on the use of cultures, and technique as well, so I've taken the liberty of posting Francois's comment as a point of departure:

Mycodore and Mycoderm are the yeast and mould used in Pyrenees style cheeses.  In my old cheese factory I made a goat tomme that looked very similar to that one.  The whote whisps are geotrichum.  My version of that cheese had 6 ripening cultures, it is a very complex rind that invloves bacteria, yeasts and molds.  From memory I used:

Starter: MA4001 and sometimes thermo to stabilise

Ripening:
Geo 13
Mycoderm
Mycodore
DH LYO
KL 71
MVA


Here is mycodore:
http://www.fromagex.com/product_info.php?products_id=937
mycoderm is another Danisco culture, but Fromagex doesn't carry it standard.  I used ot buy it from Glengarry in Ontario.


Not all washed rinds are b.linens.  In fact most of my cheeses were washed in some way, it's a great way to control surface growth, rind texture and final appearance to the customer.  I would agrue that the majority of aged cheeses are in fact washed rinds.

uisually I would innoculate the milk with ripening cultures and also make up a 2-3% salt wash with them as well.  After brining I would dry the surface then start the washing.  Frequently at first but becoming very infrequent over a few months time.

[Boofer]

Yumm.... What types of cultures do you need to get? Usually a farmstead culture is enough for it. Then for the rind you are talking about maybe mycodore and some geo, a little yeast. It's more about getting great affinage in these.  I also do one that is vacuumed "drunken cow" style which is really easy to make and delicious. I aged the last batch 5 months and it was fantastic.

I was considering the following:

• 1/4 tsp Kazu
• 1/16 tsp TA61
• 1/8 tsp PLA

Does that seem like it would produce a decent Tomme with a bit of fur to brush back? All three of my previous Tommes have been very low rind...no nap. I'd like for this to be a bit more "from out of the back woods...it came...looking a little wild-eyed". 

Opinions?

-Boofer-

[ArnaudForestier]

Boof, FWIW, I've got fur growing out my ears.  Course, I just turned 50, so I'm allowed.   Wait, that's not it. 

Cheese.  Mucor.  My tommes are furry as they come, and, knock on wood, show promise to be the best yet; I hand it all to mucor.  The only issue is that this cave will be all mucor, since it explodes everywhere.  I'm fine with that, and that was my intention.  Just an FYI.

[Boofer]

Boof, FWIW, I've got fur growing out my ears.  Course, I just turned 50, so I'm allowed.   Wait, that's not it. 

Reminds me of the old gentlemen in the park, sitting there with the sun glistening through the forest that has become their ears. Why is it that you old guys grow ear hair so prodigiously? 

Cheese.  Mucor.  My tommes are furry as they come, and, knock on wood, show promise to be the best yet; I hand it all to mucor.  The only issue is that this cave will be all mucor, since it explodes everywhere.  I'm fine with that, and that was my intention.  Just an FYI.

Would you care to share just that small portion of your newfound education that allowed you to do this? Specifics with regard to my proposed regimen above.

-Boofer-