Help me engeneer a tomme

[elkato]

 Here is the mission, if you wish to accept it......

I am following Linuxboy tomme recipe with sheep milk, and I want to achieve certain characteristics:

I want the texture to be dry but flexible, not soft creamy or buttery(texture)  = small curds rice size, and hotter cooking 104F, floc target? floc. multiplier?

I want nutty buttery taste with no bitter or picant flavor ( maybe washed curd?) but I don't want boring mild taste, I want it to have some character... to be appealing to someone who is not an expert in strong cheeses and yet not be boring taste, kind of mild interesting = high pH drain 6.3? , high pH brine 5.4?

I want it to be ready in a relative short time like 4-6 moths = Add thermophilic cultures for faster ripening
and now for the good part.. I have to use pasteurized milk,(Friesian Sheep)

Here in Mexico the dealer for Danisco doesn't carry the whole line of starters (they don't have MA400/401 or Kazu, or FLAV series)

I have access to :
( Meso) Flora Danica, CHN11,CHN19 , MA11, MM100, Sacco MA030, MS064CP
(Thermo): TA061, LH100, TA051

So far I have used using FD+TA061
                                      FD+TA061+LH100+propionoc  for nutty flav?
and I am in the process of trying more combinations of the above with the floc+cut+cook+drain+brine pointers you can suggest to me
thank you in advance!!

[linuxboy]

dry but flexible,

Wash 10-15%, drain @ 6.3-6.4, brine @ 5.4, cook to MFFB of 37%.

floc target?

12-14 mins, rennet @ 6.5-6.55

floc. multiplier?

2.5-3x

nutty buttery taste

Use CHN19+ rhamonosus or paracasei + helveticus. FLAV, CR, LB, series and/or LBC 80/81 similar. Put .02% bulk equivalent MD series into evening milk after pasteurizing it.

maybe washed curd?

Yes, it will help to marry high calcium with washed curd for better sliceability.

high pH drain 6.3? , high pH brine 5.4?

Yes, or higher on drain. Play around with it, you might want to do 5.3 on brine.

FD+TA061 FD+TA061+LH100+propionoc  for nutty flav?

Not enough texturing, aroma, and flavor adjuncts. You will not achieve what you want, unless you have native NSLAB.

loc+cut+cook+drain+brine pointers you can suggest to me

See above, it should be good for your paste and moisture. With a scald of 104F, rice size curd, it should take about 30-40 mins to reach right drain point.

[elkato]

Wow! thank you soo much LB!! you are the man!!(cheese)
will post the results as soon as they come along

[linuxboy]

please keep in mind that modern cheeses like the one you are crafting are mostly very technical cheeses, adjuncted and manufactured with specific strains of bacteria to achieve distinctive flavors. This is the best way forward if you want to create something interesting, to use commercial strains. Another possibility is the native NSLAB approach, but this tends to happen in established dairies and cheese plants. So most likely you do need to see how you can buy some adjuncts and try them out.

[elkato]

LB;
Do you know of any practice either in the cheesemaking process or in the milk parlor or in the feeding of the animals that helps in any way the development of good NSLAB in a new place, or does it just happens?

do you know another source of LB Paracasei other than LBC 80/81? and a source of LB Rhamonosus?( I will find them no mater what it takes)

Is this a good source of LB? (delbrueckii bulgaricus) (attached picture)

thanks again LB!!

[iratherfly]

I was just going to suggest Danisco Choozit LBC82. I am waiting for it to arrive and will do my first "accelerated tomme" with it next week. Its lactobacillus paracasei (unlike the LBC 80 which is lactobacillus casei ssp rhamnosus). They should do quite similar function but the 82 works in a cooler temperature range so it is better for smaller wheels and also for surface ripened stuff as well as Tommes. It is however twice the price

[elkato]

Thank you Irather,  I am having trouble finding secondary or adjunct cultures because Hansen and Danisco sell to small producers through dealers who don't have clue about anything, nevertheless I talked to a someone directly at Danisco and they are looking into possibly bringing some.

[iratherfly]

I am starting this operation that focuses on the international market. Do you want me to see about getting you cultures? (I also have equipment, instruments, moulds etc. now)

[elkato]

That would be really great Iratherfly!
besides the cultures I am also looking for a vat and several other things.

[iratherfly]

Send me a private message with what you need and your address and I will price it out for you

[NimbinValley]

Hi iratherfly.

I have similar issues getting hold of small quantities of less commonly used cultures such as the adjuncts.

Is there a possibility of shipping to Australia?  have you ever done this?

Thanks.

NVD.

[NimbinValley]

Quote
high pH drain 6.3? , high pH brine 5.4?
Yes, or higher on drain. Play around with it, you might want to do 5.3 on brine.

I am keen to explore what is happening around the pH at brining.  I have done a fair bit of cheesemaking training but this has never (??) cropped up.  What would be the difference between brining this cheese at pH 6.3 compared to 6.4?

NVD

[elkato]

From the little I am beginning to grasp, brining halts acid production so if you do the opposite and press for too long you end up with over acidified cheese, that takes longer to age/mature

[linuxboy]

What would be the difference between brining this cheese at pH 6.3 compared to 6.4?

You mean 5.3 vs 5.4?

In most cheeses, this small difference does not produce much of a difference in flavor or other characteristics. In some cheeses, especially emmenthaler, it does, to a point, because then you're dealing with conditions suitable to secondary fermentation for PAB. For emmenthaler, for example. 5.5 would be terrible, because it would cause too much gas production. 5.4 would be barely tolerable. 5.3 would be perfect, and 5.2 would be borderline too low.

What we're dealing with when we talk about tommes, though, is mostly the entire balance of bound up colloidal calcium and unbound calcium. In lamen's terms, from the point you add rennet, you start creating a gel. That milk has a certain degree of calcium degradation. And when you form the gel, the degradation continues, its rate of reaction and breadth influences by the gel properties, such as water, fat levels, casein subtype buffering capacity, etc. And you take that calcium balance to your desired target by controlling curd fuse pH and brine pH.

pH at brine also has to do in a related way with something more important: residual lactose. If a cheese does not acidify enough, there will be residual lactose and lactic acid production that will be uneven in the cheese, which does cause flavor defects. The range of 5.2-5.4 in a high calcium cheese is typically seen as a good range for the right level of lactose conversion and paste to coincide with the rennet and drain targets.

[linuxboy]

brining halts acid production

Kind of... It does slow it down a good deal, often enough to stop further acidification to no more than .2 pH. Not a dead stop, can sometimes have drift of .3.

so if you do the opposite and press for too long you end up with over acidified cheese, that takes longer to age/mature

Generally, this is true. But to me, the overacidification is more about the calcium mismatches. For example, rennetting at 6.5, fusing at 6.35, would require brining at no lower than 5.3. Whereas, renetting at 6.4, fusing at 6.1, could go to 5.1, and would give a crumblier paste (unless you wash the heck out of it, which would mean the pH would stop around 5.4 due to less lactose)