Help me engeneer a tomme

[fied]

Yes, Boofer, even kitchen environments for cheese develop their own moulds. I've found that to my cost. I once experimented withe the natural Glasgow blue and the resulting taste was foul. I now have to watch any blues that I make; that they do develop the mould I add and not the one lurking about the house/cave. I also made a creamy Lancashire last year that developed a p.c. rind. I left it to see what would happen. Big mistake! After a month, the skin slipped right off and it looked like a huge damaged Camembert. I rescued the inside and it made an OK, if bland, melting cheese.

Even sanitising all equipment and the 'caves' doesn't always get rid of indigenous flora, though I'm now trying to encourage the moulds I want by rubbing them around the boxes I use for aging.

[ArnaudForestier]

Thanks again Arnaud! what I meant about measuring starters was (badly phrased question) about your morge recipe which you describe with very exact quantities (percentages) of the different yeasts-molds. I made an interpretation of a Comte and spent lots of time combing through Pav's explanations on how to make one(morge) but I had only bits and pieces of it, and your list sheds light on how to make one.
your explanation on quantities of acidifying cultures is also helpful since in the small scale recipes everything is in tsp.. just one thouhgt this 1% bulk is also for freeze dried packets?
I should add that my homestead dairy enterprise is not my main income so making it work is not life/death nevertheless I hope to do so, and being able to market a quality cheese (my own interpretation) with my milk will be a large part of the reward.

Elkato, it's important to keep in mind that not only do I no longer have the intent to do this commercially, but that Yoav and Pav (Linuxboy) have made the good point, that tommes, typically, have a good mold balance (though you will find tons of variations on species, as well as balance with linens mottling, etc.).  If it wasn't clear, my intent on keeping this morge blend as a component, was (1) precisely because I had successfully crafted a Beaufort blend that worked really well; (2) it was always my intent, especially when I was doing my R & D with the intent of commercially doing this, to develop a stable "cave" with a large range of biodiversity, flora I have come to know from research on alpine rind and paste flora.  So, as I said above, essentially, doing cheeses through the seasons, as any French fermier does, using what's in their cave.  The only difference is that my "cave" was not based on an underground grotto, from my father and mother progenitors stretching hundreds of years ago.  I'm heavily French - professionally cooking the food since about 12, French blooded, into most things French, culturally (maddening as the literature can be, at times, to me).  Hence, my basic drive here. 

Now, all that said:  The percentages are repeated below.  I will bold basic categories, so it's a bit clearer (e.g., "yeast" is 14% of the blend; of these, there are two yeasts - DH, and Geo 15 - Geo. Cand. expressing in mold and yeast forms, Geo 15 being yeast form).  You will see that DH is 11.2% of the total blend, and Geo 15 is 2.8% of the total blend - totalling 14%.  Hope that clears it up.  The sub-names are brand names - e.g., "DH" is Debaromyces hansenii, a yeast, provided by Danisco.  Geo 15, Geotrichum candidum, is geo, in its yeast-expression.  For the Beaufort, I wanted this, over Geo 13, a mold-form geo.

You'll note there are two "blends."  This was due to the fact I had less of some linens than I had thought I had, so in the middle of the blend, I had to change up on percentages.  Looking back on my notes, I had a total of 7.13 grams in cultures.  I can only offer that what I ended up with, I was very happy with.  I will at the end, give the original, with original intended percentages.  FYI, for whatever you want to do, if you want to try this blend. 

As to the first blend, I've also expressed the morge in grams, so if you want to try this blend, it should now be clear (there are rounding errors - I'd just suggest thinking on percentages, not grams, etc.) 

Total of 7.13 grams - morge "1A" (lol....originally "Morge 1.")

Yeast: (14%)
DH (11.2%) (.8 grams)
Geo 15: 2.8% (.2 grams)

Arthrobacter (4.2%)
MGE: (4.2%) (.3 grams)

lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2.8%)
LBC-80 (2.8%) (.2 grams)

Linens (75%)
SR3: (21.5%) (1.53 grams)
FR13: (25.2%) (1.8 grams)
FR22: (28.1%) (2 grams)

Micro-Cocci: 7%
MVA (xylosum) (7%) (.5 grams)

Originally, I intended for more linens in the blend.  Original Morge, "Morge Blend 1":

Yeast: (10%)
DH (8%)
Geo 15: 2%

Arthrobacter (3%)
MGE: (3%)

lactobacillus-Casei rhamnosus: (2%)
LBC-80 (2%)

Linens (80%)
SR3: (15%)
FR13: (30%)
FR22: (35%)

Micro-Cocci: 5%
MVA (xylosum) (5%)

It's important to keep in mind, that ultimately, the precision of this blend is meaningless - so much will depend on your environmental conditions, encouraging some species, discouraging others.  But again, this mix was my best parsing after a considerable amount of talking with Pav, Francois, Sailor, and my own research of French and English-language sources.  And to reiterate - it's a Beaufort morge.  I want to play, and see what I get, using the same bio-environment across different alpine-style cheeses, basically reblochon, tomme, and gruyere styles.  And I think the tomme I'll get will be really nice.  But you can opt for a more mold-oriented tomme, or go whole hog, and just make a classic tomme de Savoie, a tomme grise - which is, as its name establishes, a tomme heavily weighted to gray mold, "poil de chat," "cat's fur," mucor strains.  Here, a French source:

Ainsi, Mucor est responsable de l'accident dit « poil de chat » principalement en fromage à pâte molle, se caractérisant par un défaut d'aspect des fromages, et par l'apparition de mauvais goûts. De même, Geotrichum candidum peut devenir un agent d'altération (défaut de texture et de goût) en technologie pâte molle s'il est amené à trop se développer (accident de la « graisse » ou de la « peau de crapaud »).

Il est à noter que le regroupement des microorganismes en flore utile ou flore d'altération est à nuancer en fonction des technologies considérées. Par exemple, le Mucor est utile en Tomme de Savoie, mais nuisible en Camembert (accident du « poil de chat »).

The gist is that this stuff, the gray "cat's fur," is considered a certifiable flaw, in most soft cheeses.  However, in a [classic, let's call it, just for the sake of the current discussion] tomme de savoie, it's "useful."  I'd say, that's an understatement.  From what I've come to know, mucor is a necessary condition of the classic gray-rinded tomme of the Savoie - for which many makers of tomme outside the area actually ship their cheeses to the area; ship to the Savoie, specifically to achieve this effect.  To this gray, you'll see lots of variations - a blanket, smooth gray rind, suggesting a relatively simple set of flora; gray, with heavy red mottling, suggesting some linens involvement; and on and on.  Ultimately, as Pav, Sailor and Francois (I consider these guys my original, and existing, gurus) have said - no one, outside these areas, is making a cheese bearing the name of that area.  We play with existing conditions - milk, terroir - add in our desired, sensory qualities, which includes technique and native or added flora, to make a pleasurable and, if commercial, consistently sellable product.

As to the "1%" discussion on the starter, I'd highly recommend you look up Sailor's thread, incl. Pav's comments.  You could, of course, convert bulk equivalents back to direct inoculation of cultures - but there's nothing better than viable, working cultures of relatively known quantities, hitting your milk at running speed.  (The same thing is done in brewing - you work up yeast to a known density, and pitch the stuff - that's been rocking at 100% - into your fermentation vessel.  Almost no lag time, and you're ensured of some consistency, given a consistent, vital, viable culture).  Since employing Sailor's mother-culture approach, I've never looked back.  And as a commercial maker, I especially think it's an ingenious way of going about things.  Here it is, his thread. 

[elkato]

Thank you very much Arnaud for sharing all the detailed information of your hard work, the same goes for Yoav, Pav. and Boofer!

[NimbinValley]

This is great.  Thanks to everyone...

A couple of questions/comments:

I have not heard before of adding LBC 80 to a morge.  What will it do on the rind that it is not doing in the cheese from adding it to the milk?

Do you add any of the morge to the milk or only for washing?  If not why not?  If you do, why?

I like the comment that exact quantities and ratios are meaningless in the longer term since they will settle into a blend determined by our own specific condititons - I think that is what we are all trying to achieve - unless you are a large commercial producer trying to meet retailer specs etc.

Lastly I have taken on board that the next best thing I can do for improving my cheese making is to move to bulk starter mother cultures from DVI.  Is this the general consensus?

Thanks again.  I am really enjoying this.

NVD

[ArnaudForestier]

I have not heard before of adding LBC 80 to a morge.  What will it do on the rind that it is not doing in the cheese from adding it to the milk?

Do you add any of the morge to the milk or only for washing?  If not why not?  If you do, why?

NVD

My memory is poor, now, NVD - your experts are Sailor, Pav, Francois, on micro. stuff.  Unfortunately, though I researched a good deal, my mind is not wired this way - metaphors, aesthetic impressions...and if I can grasp science and research well enough, it takes work, and it's unfortunately the first to leave, if not constantly employed.  Enough excuses.  So:

My memory is that rhamnosus is simply among many found on the rind flora of gruyere types (French source that investigated the surface flora of Beaufort, sorry, can't recall the source).  I seem to recall that it is also pretty vigorous  in aminopeptidatic activity, that is to say - among many species - it is a rind component aiding in proteolysis, which among other things breaks down bitter peptide-termina, and contributes secondary, proteolyzed by-products that simply add aroma and flavor to your make.  As I recall, it's also got some bacteriocidal qualities, nice in raw milk.  I will try to go back through and see if I can recall the sources, or perhaps one of the experts will see this and make a better answer for you. 

As to my Beaufort makes, I did use them (the adjunct cultures) in the vat, but it's likely a waste....given the high cooking temps (some are more heat labile than others), a long maturation - 4-6 months and up - and the nature of gruyere, hard rind, low Aw, etc., agree with Pav - sorry, Pav, if I've remembered poorly - but these adjuncts are largely wasted in a high-cooked vat.  So, if I were doing this commercially, I'd probably use it in morge (rind wash) only, and then, only to establish a cave.  Eventually, one would hope your cave is simply stable as an incredibly diverse bio-environment.  But all that's discussed above, so won't bore with redundancy here.

I can only re-affirm how much I love the use of mother culture inoculation.  My thanks again to Sailor, and the others who contributed to his thread.

Edit:  Sorry, I believe this is the article discussing rind flora in Gruyeres.  (Warning: PDF).  It's an interesting article, field studies on several plants, isolating the preponderance (and percentages) of L. casei and L. rhamnosus among gruyeres.  From Le Lait.  I relied on this, among many other sources, in deciding on at least some rhamnosus.

[NimbinValley]

Thanks for that.

Just checking but I thought LBC 80 was paracasei, not rhamnosus.  But the logic of what you are saying is the same regardless.

That makes sense about the high temps affecting them.

NVD

[ArnaudForestier]

NVD, LBC 80 is L. casei ssp. rhamnosus.  Here's one sheet, FYI.

Glad to help, anytime; I hope whatever I've written is helpful.

Except for the next stretch.     Folks, it's been enjoyable to be back, as always.  Unfortunately my addictive proclivities mean I am finding it so easy to write here, and so difficult to keep my butt down at my escritoire (uh, chair, light, shot of a denuded walnut out front), which is an important thing for me, has been for awhile.  Very great affection for you all,

Paul

[NimbinValley]

Thanks.

The confusing this is that LBC 81 and 82 seem to be both paracasei.  Phage variants I guess?

Also, could anyone explain the difference in results between Mycoderm and Mycodore?  Mycodore is a prohibited import into Australia for some reason...

NVD

[iratherfly]

No, the LBC 81 is variant of the LBC 80. The 82 is a different strain (and from some odd reason costs twice as much!) Interesting - I have never heard about it used for rinds either. Can anyone tell me about it? I use it in Tommes and Cantalet types only. I know it works differently than lactic starter but I don't know too much about it actually (yet). I am going to ask my microbiologist on duty (yes, I actually have one now!)

Do you want me to mail you some Mycodore? hehe... white powdery substance in international mail

Mycodore (trade name for Cylindrocarpon) and Mycoderm (trade name for Verticillium lecanii) are two entirely different species of fungi though they often coexist in rinds. They are both plant pathogens though Verticillium lecanii is better known to be pathogenic to incests (often used as pesticide).