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I'm nearing the end of my first bottle of double strength liquid veg rennet, and am thinking of switching to calf rennet. I'm planning to make a few longer aged cheeses and have read that the veg rennet can increase bitterness over time. Also, that calf rennet makes a better curd than veg. Is this still the current thinking? (I use generic grocery store milk.)

I'm leaning towards ordering dry calf rennet because of its longer 'shelf' life. Besides the difficulty of measuring small amounts, are there any other drawbacks to using the dry?

Thanks.

Edit to add: Does anyone use chymosin, the GM rennet product? Other than it being a genetically modified product, are there any downsides to using that?


Edit 2: update title.

I have found the dry calf rennet to be twitchy :-\  It does not set consistently for me. Perhaps it is the batch I got. It is not the cultures I use or anything else as, when I switch back to my (quite old at this point) liquid calf rennet, I have no problems. Others have had different experiences.

Kristin

I found a  previously posted video from Linuxboy about Chy Max M.  The 100% chymosin I found for sale (at The cheesemakers) is Chy Max Extra. Not sure what the difference is but both are from Chr Hansen. 

https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=2357.0 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=2357.0) 

I am definitely not into GM but I think I would like to try this out as I am vegetarian and do not want bitter cheese.

LinuxBoy, if you read this, did you ever get that gallon from CHR Hansen? Do you still have bottles to send out?  :)

Still not available yet. I'll be reselling CHR Hansen's full line starting next month, though.

Thats odd, thecheesemaker seems to have it available. Maybe I will spring for a 4oz.

I don't think Steve has Chymax M. Where did you see that? I don't see how he could buy it directly when it's still being produced only in test amounts in the lab. Their fermentors aren't up yet in the US. Available in most of Europe, though. They always get things first. Even the old lacto labo plant is there, even though Cargill Texturizing runs it now.

http://www.thecheesemaker.com/cultures.htm (http://www.thecheesemaker.com/cultures.htm) After the veg and calf rennet but right before molds and yeasts. It does not say it is CHR hansen's product, but it says 100% chymosin, kosher and veg friendly.

EDIT: definitely is CHR Hansen, just noticed the spec sheet.

They're holding out on you Linux! Unnacceptable!

That's Chymax Extra, it's an aspergillus ferment product.

Oh jeez. Now I see that is exactly what Gina said above...moving on...

Do you know the difference though, LB?

Between the new M and Extra? Sure. Ready for a quick history lesson?

20 or 30 years ago, Pfizer developed a first generation fermented coagulant made from E Coli, and others made progress along similar lines using Kluyveromyces, Saccharomyces, and Aspergilus as the host. It quickly because the de facto standard, surpassing m miehei derived coagulant, and animal rennet. It was called chymax in the CHR Hansen product line. From there, they created derivative products with multiple concentrations (plus, extra, ultra), and also a special chymax (special) that had bovine pepsin added to it to try and more closely mimic natural rennet and its selective cleaving sites in proteolysis during aging.

In the past 8 years, there has been increased interest in using cameliad-derived coagulant. And it was developed and tried and patented. This is a second-generation fermented coagulant, and they're calling it chymax-M. Supposedly has more selective cleaving of k-caseins, and comparable beta-casein cleaving during proteolysis. Also cheaper because you need less of it.

I'm actually working on a comprehensive rennet article, trying to finish it tomorrow. Too much confusion out there.

Any word on when M is going to hit the USA?

Is 'Chymax Extra' a good product? (I need more rennet soon.)

Have a look at this website: http://www.hundsbichler.at/php/natural-rennet-vs-microbial-rennet_en_42.html (http://www.hundsbichler.at/php/natural-rennet-vs-microbial-rennet_en_42.html)

I sell their rennet in the UK and a major retailer has instructed their suppliers for a particular range of high value cheeses to use Bioren Premium. This is the most ethical of the calf rennets they investifgated (calfs have a short, but decent life). I hear from the customers that the cheese made is very good and one is planning to switch his normal production, if not total, than at least partial, to natural rennet.

Jaap, thanks for the link. I want to point out M miehei rennet is not the same as FPC rennet produced from GM Kluyveromyces or Aspergillus strains. One is microbial created from isolating aspartic proteinase from M miehei or Cryphonectria parastitica, and the other is made from GM organisms that are made into factories that produce chemically identical rennin. Of course, even though they are chemically identical, there are still functional differences between animal sourced and FPC coagulants, and you don't get the same end results in the cheese, but they're very close.

IMHO, there are applications for the older style coagulants based on miehei like Hannilase and Thermolase, but there are better products out there.

I know Colton Basset recently made the switch to calf rennet, so more makers are using the science to make real production decisions.

Does this creep anyone else out or is it just me?  ???

This is one of those ways in which I've learned to love the bomb. Modern medicine wouldn't be possible without 1)vat fermentation and compound concentration, and 2) DNA splicing to create complex organic compounds. Even mass penicillin production wouldn't have happened without the first.

I'm not necessarily embracing it all, but actually I find it quite interesting. For years people kept saying 'science will find a way' to feed the growing masses, and now many arent liking what 'they' are finding. :)

Last night I was reading an interesting comparison regarding the relative acceptance of GM rennet compared to acceptance of other GM products. It's been around for decades and IIRC was the first GM product approved 20 years ago by the FDA. I've recently read that 90 to 95% of commercial cheeses are already being made with GM rennet. I'd guess most people dont know (or care). I sure didnt till recently.

Modern medicine is a good comparison. From another angle, there are far too many medications taken by too many people for too many ailments, but I sure wouldnt want to do away with everything. Hopefully someday the pendulum will settle someplace in a moderate center but for now it's a matter of individuals educating themselves about what they put into their bodies and making up their own minds.

Unfortunately it's sometimes difficult or impossible to uncover important details. Even TheCheesemaker.com makes one follow 'the small print' to find the separate fact sheet to find the actual name of the product they are selling. They use the more generic title '100% chymosin' instead of 'Chy-max Extra'. And from there, you'd still have to do another search to find that it is a GM product.

----------------------------------

That said (thanks for the interesting discussion), going back to the original thread question: 

I'll be needing to order some more rennet soon. Does anyone have any recommendations for a choice of rennet between dry or liquid calf, or the 100% chymosin (chymax extra)?

Thanks.

I can only repeat my mantra: I'm using MAXIREN 600, 1 drop/1 liter milk (manufacturer's recommendation). I buy it in 20-30 cc bottles with a 12 months shelf life. The "oldest" cheese I've tasted was an almost 2 years old Gruyere without any weird taste.
I am running an experiment testing shelf life. I have a bottle with exp date August 2009. It should be about 2 years old. I've increased the dosage by 20-30% and it gives a good coagulation and no bitterness at all.

That's a good rennet, too Alex. It's FPC from GM kluyveromyces. Should not cause bitterness and be very close to animal rennet.

Gina, the best rennet is animal, followed by second gen FPC (not available in the US yet), followed by first generation FPC, followed by microbial from m. miehei. The common first-gen FPCs are Chymax and Maxiren. In the Chymax line, they're all the same, just different concentrations. I personally prefer liquid to powdered.

I'm not embracing it all, but I have no issues with using GM to modify microbes to produce specific products, then purifying and concentrating the products. It's not like GM seeds.

Quote from: Gina on July 10, 2010, 06:15:37 PM
...veg rennet can increase bitterness over time. Also, that calf rennet makes a better curd than veg. Is this still the current thinking?

Is this true?

I have been using veg rennet tablets from the beginning. Are bitterness and curd formation a problem with veg rennet?

Here's the description of what I'm using:

"These tablets contain no animal products, are gluten free and Non-GMO. Each tablet is scored into 4 segements for ease of use.

INGREDIENTS: Microbial coagulant (Mucur Pussillus and/or Mucur Miehei), Cellulose Microcristaline and Sodium Chloride USP"

-Boofer-

I ended up ordering some animal rennet. I would have preferred the liquid, but with some trepidation I decided to try the dry based on $ savings and longer shelf life.  When it's time to order next time, perhaps the Chymax M will be available in the US and I'll consider getting some of that.

Thanks for the discussion - it really helped sort things out for me. 

Quote from: Boofer on July 11, 2010, 05:28:47 PM

Quote from: Gina on July 10, 2010, 06:15:37 PM
...veg rennet can increase bitterness over time. Also, that calf rennet makes a better curd than veg. Is this still the current thinking?

Is this true?

I have been using veg rennet tablets from the beginning. Are bitterness and curd formation a problem with veg rennet?

All other things being equal, m. miehei-derived coagulant has a greater chance of causing proteolysis that favors protein hydrolysis at sites that result in liberation of hydrophobic peptides, which are bitter even in small concentrations. So yes, it is a problem inherent with the coagulant, although it does not always cause issues.

Curd formation is also selective, and animal rennet or FPC produce fewer fines. Strength is about the same.

Colton Basset? Are you sure? I think it is another Stilton manufacturer.

Quote from: linuxboy on July 13, 2010, 03:16:21 AM
All other things being equal, m. miehei-derived coagulant has a greater chance of causing proteolysis that favors protein hydrolysis at sites that result in liberation of hydrophobic peptides, which are bitter even in small concentrations. So yes, it is a problem inherent with the coagulant, although it does not always cause issues.

Curd formation is also selective, and animal rennet or FPC produce fewer fines. Strength is about the same.

Great, so I've got a cheese cave filled with little bitter timebombs....  >:D :o  :'(
I suppose I could pull the wheels out of the cave, dry them out, and fashion a little kiddie car for the grandkids in the family...a cheese mobile. Arrgh!  :(

Here goes my order for calf's rennet....

Thanks for clarifying, linuxboy.

-Boofer-

Quote from: Jaap Jongia on July 13, 2010, 06:18:20 AM
Colton Basset? Are you sure? I think it is another Stilton manufacturer.

Possibly it's both, I just remember seeing the memo from them in February or so about the switch so retailers can differentiate in case someone asked if the blue was a vegetarian cheese. They mentioned something about more complex aromatic compound production and better mouthfeel with animal rennet.

Quote from: Boofer on July 13, 2010, 02:38:02 PM

Quote from: linuxboy on July 13, 2010, 03:16:21 AM
All other things being equal, m. miehei-derived coagulant has a greater chance of causing proteolysis that favors protein hydrolysis at sites that result in liberation of hydrophobic peptides, which are bitter even in small concentrations. So yes, it is a problem inherent with the coagulant, although it does not always cause issues.

Curd formation is also selective, and animal rennet or FPC produce fewer fines. Strength is about the same.

Great, so I've got a cheese cave filled with little bitter timebombs....  >:D :o  :'(
I suppose I could pull the wheels out of the cave, dry them out, and fashion a little kiddie car for the grandkids in the family...a cheese mobile. Arrgh!  :(

Here goes my order for calf's rennet....

Thanks for clarifying, linuxboy.

-Boofer-

Woah, Boof, it's probably OK. Have to remember I have a bias (albeit fact-driven) :). A microbial rennet can still produce a great cheese. It still has some market share as a coagulant. A lot of rennet is lost in the whey, and if you use the right amount, it should still turn out OK. And so much can happen during aging, that it's hard to predict bitterness.

I just wanted to point out that if possible, we should try to eliminate any sources of failure, and rennet is one possible source. For the small-scale production most of us do here, if we have no ethical objection or price objection to animal rennet, that's what we should use. And if there's a price objection but no GM objection, then use FPC. And if there's a strong GM objection, then that's the only case to use m. miehei coagulant. Both FPC and m miehei coagulant are vegetarian.

Quote from: linuxboy on July 13, 2010, 02:56:48 PM
Woah, Boof, it's probably OK. Have to remember I have a bias (albeit fact-driven) :). A microbial rennet can still produce a great cheese. It still has some market share as a coagulant. A lot of rennet is lost in the whey, and if you use the right amount, it should still turn out OK. And so much can happen during aging, that it's hard to predict bitterness.

I just wanted to point out that if possible, we should try to eliminate any sources of failure, and rennet is one possible source. For the small-scale production most of us do here, if we have no ethical objection or price objection to animal rennet, that's what we should use. And if there's a price objection but no GM objection, then use FPC. And if there's a strong GM objection, then that's the only case to use m. miehei coagulant. Both FPC and m miehei coagulant are vegetarian.

Even more clear that I should be refining my process and changing to animal rennet. It is, after all, what has been in use since the first cheese was made. Old school.  I do appreciate you spelling it out for me. When I first bought the cheesemaking kit, it came with the m. miehei rennet. Now I have been enlightened. Progress.  ;)

This bit of valued wisdom earns you a cheese. Thanks.

-Boofer-

The rennet that you have been using may certainly have contributed to some of the problems that you have had.

Quote from: LBI just wanted to point out that if possible, we should try to eliminate any sources of failure, and rennet is one possible source.

Since I start with generic grocery store milk, I figure I need to reduce as many variables/possibilties for failure as I can - esp since I'm one of them. You got a cheese from me too, LB. Don't let them all go to your head. ;)

Thanks :). Finally finished the majority of that article on coagulants. One more section to go that has the major rennets listed along with their clotting strength and amount to use for common cheese styles. Will update it when I can.

http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73 (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73)

I'm somewhat comforted that I may have identified a flaw in all of my previous cheeses...14...count 'em!   :o  Thanks to linuxboy's clarification of rennets. I do realize I may have other process problems, but changing the rennet should at least eliminate some of the bittering that I may have been building into my cheeses.

I recently received calf rennet and will be using it for all my future cheeses. In fact, I am really anxious to redo some recent endeavors and sock them away for awhile.

Why do the cheesemaking kits have the m. miehei coagulant? Arrrggh!!  >:(  I wouldn't expect it to be that much of a cost differential. All kits for beginning cheesemakers should include animal rennet, right? Unless the prospective cheesemaker intends to only make young, fresh cheeses, why would these folks torpedo the unsuspecting beginner? It's just wrong. I have yet to make a fresh, unaged cheese. They have all been intended to be aged.

linuxboy, your work looks good so far. Can you characterize the damage to whey proteins caused by the M. Miehei as described here?:

"Microbial coagulant, such as one derived from M. Miehei breaks down whey proteins very quickly, causing damage as soon as 3-4 hours after addition. Whereas, other enzymes, such as animal rennet and FPC have negligible impact on whey proteins."

-Boofer-

Well, Boof, some people are vegetarian and avoid all GMO foods, so their choice is either m miehei or real coagulant from plants like cardoon. Also, yes, that is the cheapest rennet out there. I have no idea why anyone still sells m miehei without posting a clear description of the rennet options. Perhaps lack of research, or just stocking an item for the sake of selling it. There are applications for m miehei.

What kind of characterization would you like to see? Rate of proteolysis vs animal or FPC? Explanation of the specific sites in whey proteins affected? Factors influencing amino acid hydrolization? Discussion of organoleptic properties of the liberated peptides? I am trying very hard to not write too much because honestly, a lot of this stuff is kind of useless unless you're a scientist. No sense in obfuscating the important stuff for the sake of exactness. It's also why I chose to not have citations to all the research studies.

In terms of the effect on whey, because those whey proteins are cut, they can't be recovered well during industrial whey concentration. You get fewer solids, and the price paid for whey is for the solid fraction. So a plant making 10,000 liters may get $20 per lb of whey solids, but if those solids aren't there, then they're out of money. It's pretty dramatic in huge plants that can get money for the leftover whey. Practically for home cheesemakers it means a whey ricotta is difficult to achieve when using m miehei.

You're right. What you present rapidly approaches TMI (too much information).

You did satisfactorily answer my question. If the whey solids are destroyed and not recoverable, probably no (or less) ricotta cheese is possible, correct? A lot of weight-lifting and body-building products use the recovered whey product. I can see how that would be affected.

And, yes, I do see the need for a non-animal-based coagulant.

-Boofer-

Glad that helped. If something is unclear, please, please let me know if you can. I go over and revise what I write repeatedly to take out the excess fluff, but it's hard for me to judge sometimes what is relevant and what isn't. I try to include a lot of "this makes the cheese taste XYZ" and "don't do this because" type of writing.

Yes, whey ricotta is made from the whey proteins, not the casein proteins. Those whey proteins are denatured when they are heated, which means they are unwound and can clump together and come out of the whey as solids. If the proteins are cut to smaller bits they can't be unwound in the same way when they're heated, so they don't come out of solution (meaning yes, less or no ricotta yield). In terms of commercial practice, smaller bits of proteins aren't as heavy, and they're physically smaller, so it's not as easy to use commercial methods like a membrane that filters specific sizes of proteins, or centrifuging.

Follow up report:  I just opened the first cheese made with my 'new' dry calf rennet (Purchased because of this thread - I formerly used microbial rennet.) It's an Asiago, meant to be aged longer, but I was curious. Even though it is still young, it is extremely good and I am very pleased with it. So pleased I made another one yesterday. :)

My taste buds are very sensitive to even slight bitterness (super taster), and there isnt any at all with this. Of course it's not possible to really tell if it's the new rennet that's responsible, or that my skills/knowledge have improved, or blind luck. No matter the cause, I'm very pleased.

Also, it's my impression that I am getting better set and firmer curds with the animal rennet, but that could be my imagination.

I am finding using the dry rennet to be very easy. My cheeses are usually 4 gallon ones, and I have made pre-measured little packets containing 1/8 tsp so measuring isnt necessary each time. :)

I'm with you, Gina. I formerly used mucor rennet and have recently switched to calf rennet because of linuxboy's tutelage. So far, I have a Gouda and my Beaufort that have been made with the dry calf rennet. Unfortunately it will be quite some time before I can taste the Beaufort (try this same time next year!), but the Gouda should be available by Halloween. I'm very curious.

Congrats on having your supertaster approve the Asiago. Woo woo!!

-Boofer-

That's so great to hear! Congrats. It's amazing because there is so little rennet left in the cheese after draining whey, but it makes a world of difference which one you choose.

Quote from: linuxboy on July 19, 2010, 03:27:07 PM
Thanks :). Finally finished the majority of that article on coagulants. One more section to go that has the major rennets listed along with their clotting strength and amount to use for common cheese styles. Will update it when I can.

http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73 (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73)

Wow Pav.

Great article. Thank you so much for putting it together. Just in case you are looking for feedback. Here are some points from a complete noob cheese maker.  :)

1. In the section on Plant based coagulants, you mention the bittering effect that they have on milk. However, the following paper seems to claim that this is true for cow's milk only (or mostly?), and that for goat and sheep's milk cheese Plant based coagulant may actually be preferable. They profiled Cynara L. usage in Spain and Portugal, which appears to be the purple section of the artichoke and cardoon flower.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.net-lanna.info%2FFood%2FArticles%2F11024336.pdf&ei=FPpyTKuGL4GesQOS76GoDQ&usg=AFQjCNEjMTJFp9Y-v5FBdFH6afSIhIT-9g&sig2=w8mR2_iQILQeBpEOnZyidA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.net-lanna.info%2FFood%2FArticles%2F11024336.pdf&ei=FPpyTKuGL4GesQOS76GoDQ&usg=AFQjCNEjMTJFp9Y-v5FBdFH6afSIhIT-9g&sig2=w8mR2_iQILQeBpEOnZyidA)
Now I'm a total noob as I mentioned so it may be that I misunderstood something. So am very much looking forward to your (and everyone else's) feedback on this.

2. Do any enzymes come from starter cultures (the Meso- and Thermo-)? The reason I ask is because they appear to be able to produce curds. Especially the buttermilk. Are they the same enzymes as the ones found in the different types of rennet?

3. The following sentence confused me a little bit:

QuoteEnzymes coagulate milk by destabilizing the casein proteins, which causes them to join together and form a stable gel.

By destabilizing/cleaving I understand that the kappa and alpha/beta bonds are broken. So once they are separated what do they attach to in order to form the curd?

4. Would you consider an Acid as another form of coagulant? Like for example Vinegar or Lemon Juice and such? I thought I'd mention it as it may help draw the bigger picture of how the coagulation process works.

5. For those forced to use coagulants that yield bitter taste. I would love to see a list of things that can be done to minimize that. Like for example I saw on a Youtube video that washing the curd before pressing it will minimize the bitterness in the cheese later on. Sure enough reading an article sometime later it was mentioned that excess acid in the curd will cause bitterness in the cheese after it is aged.

6. Now the following is not related to coagulation, so it may be irrelevant for your article. But I thought it would also be good to know why acidity turns to bitterness during the aging process. And which acid(s) are responsible for that?

Again thanks for the great article, and I hope nothing above comes off critical or negative in any way.

Rudy

That is so super helpful. Thank you so much. I'll make some changes after ACS. To answer your questions:

Quote
1. In the section on Plant based coagulants, you mention the bittering effect that they have on milk. However, the following paper seems to claim that this is true for cow's milk only (or mostly?), and that for goat and sheep's milk cheese Plant based coagulant may actually be preferable.

I wouldn't say preferable. I would say that for casein structures other than bovine casein when used with raw milk that has native bacillus and cocci strains with peptidases and proteases, the end product exhibits acceptable flavor without excess bitter notes. I would also say that for highly proteolytic and peptidolytid/lipolytic cheeses such as ones with bloomy rinds or blue mold, the degradation of proteins by those enzymes is so much higher and faster than the protein degradation from aspartic proteases that the bitterness is mitigated. It's like if there are any extremely hydrophobic peptide terminals in the cheese, they're further broken down by the other enzymes from bacteria and molds.

Quote2. Do any enzymes come from starter cultures (the Meso- and Thermo-)? The reason I ask is because they appear to be able to produce curds. Especially the buttermilk. Are they the same enzymes as the ones found in the different types of rennet?

Yes, a lot of enzymes exist both within the cell membrane, within the cell body in the fluid, and in the cell components. They come into play in the cheese texture, flavor, and aroma development. But coagulation due to acid that produces a lactic curd is due to two dynamics. One, the production of acid to lower pH to the isoelectric point of milk (4.6), which destabilizes the positive charge of the k-caseins to the point where milk can no longer be a colloid, and Two, the polysaccharide structures on the cell membrane contribute to a thick set. That's why Leuconostoc, for example, produces a thick set, its exo-polysaccharide structure is conducive to cell joining into chains.

Quote
By destabilizing/cleaving I understand that the kappa and alpha/beta bonds are broken. So once they are separated what do they attach to in order to form the curd?

Cardosin and chymosin have initial specificity only toward k-casein. k-casein is hydrophilic in its terminal, has a net positive charge on that terminal, which lets the casein structure remain in suspension. as1, as2 caseins are hydrophobic, they cannot be in suspension and will join to each other via calcium bonds. I posted a video here. Search for my post, something like "must see:video that explains the science behind coagulation." The k-casein is oriented with its hydrophilic terminal out, and that's the part that's broken off by chymosin/cardosin to liberate a glycopeptide. The other section is called para kappa-casein, highly hydrophobic.

Quote4. Would you consider an Acid as another form of coagulant? Like for example Vinegar or Lemon Juice and such? I thought I'd mention it as it may help draw the bigger picture of how the coagulation process works.

That's true, I didn't mention it because I didn't want to get into the whole discussion of milk chemistry. But you're right, I should add it and touch on it for completely.

Quote
5. For those forced to use coagulants that yield bitter taste. I would love to see a list of things that can be done to minimize that. Like for example I saw on a Youtube video that washing the curd before pressing it will minimize the bitterness in the cheese later on. Sure enough reading an article sometime later it was mentioned that excess acid in the curd will cause bitterness in the cheese after it is aged.

For what kind of cheese? For hard cheese that's aged a long time? It's a toughie. For active bloomy rind, blue, and fresh cheeses, it's easier. Upping the protein content is one good trick to reduce bitterness with m miehei. I'll add a section, thx.

Quote6. Now the following is not related to coagulation, so it may be irrelevant for your article. But I thought it would also be good to know why acidity turns to bitterness during the aging process. And which acid(s) are responsible for that?

It doesn't by itself. It depends on the cheese and rate of degradation and whey drain pH (which affects calcium in the cheese). So what happens is that as cheese ages, it will break down by itself. The coagulant enzyme helps, and so do proeteases and peptidases. But cheese protein will also break down all by itself in the presence of water due to classic hydrolysis. So what happens with high acidity development is that often it's not the acid itself but the other factors. For example, say you miss the brine target of 5.4 and wind up brining at 4.9. High acidity, right? Yep, but what has that acid done to the cheese while it has been sitting? Well, it's degraded the calcium bonds both between individual caseins and the bonds between micelle structures. This is especially the case when the whey drain pH was low. So by the time you salt, those proteins have been "predigested" by the acid. And then during aging, because the knit is poor, the rate of proteolysis is faster. If you take two cheeses and change either drain pH or salt/brine pH, the rate of protein degradation during maturation will be different. The lactic acid by itself doesn't really do all that much. It's converted to lactate salts most of the time.

Remember bitterness and it's taste is a peptide chain. A peptide chain is liberated when proteins break down. And those proteins break down due to catabolysis (i.e. protein hydrolysis), usually with the help of an enzyme that has specificity to certain amino acid bonds in a protein.


Thanks again. I'll rewrite portions and improve what I wrote. One disadvantage of online publishing like this is no peer review, so this is a big help.

Wow what an awesome forum. I need a thumbs up graphic. :)

Quote
5. For those forced to use coagulants that yield bitter taste. I would love to see a list of things that can be done to minimize that. Like for example I saw on a Youtube video that washing the curd before pressing it will minimize the bitterness in the cheese later on. Sure enough reading an article sometime later it was mentioned that excess acid in the curd will cause bitterness in the cheese after it is aged.

Quote from: linuxboy on August 24, 2010, 12:04:33 AMFor what kind of cheese? For hard cheese that's aged a long time? It's a toughie. For active bloomy rind, blue, and fresh cheeses, it's easier.

It was indeed for a hard cheese that is meant to be aged a long time over 6 months and up to a couple of years, at the extremes.

Quote from: linuxboy on August 24, 2010, 12:04:33 AMUpping the protein content is one good trick to reduce bitterness with m miehei. I'll add a section, thx.

I'm really really looking forward to that. Knowing the protein types and where to extract them from will help us insure cheeses that are meant for the cave/aging.

Great Stuff Pav. Thank You very much.