My 3rd try at a pseudo stilton is now about 3+ weeks old, and smells awful when I open the container to flip it. Should it smell so bad? Mostly it's an ammonia smell, I think, although I have anosmia and my sense of smell is seriously damaged.
It looks okay but very soft to handle when I flip it (my fingers make indents), and a little seems to stick to the plastic drain mat which is elevated in the container. The blue is dying off and a decent tan is covering about 80% now, so I pierced it.
Am I wasting my time or is this fairly normal?
Haven't tried a blue yet, so I don't know. Could you leave it open to the air for 1/2 an hour each day to let the amonia clear out? I know if camembert gets like that airing it a bit helps, and when it comes to eating it, just cut it and let it sit for an hour or so and the taste is just fine.
Perhaps a photo would help? There are lots here who do good blues, so I'm sure you'll get some more informed advice soon.
- Jeff
Ammonia is normal with a Blue. However, the ammonia can also kill the blue mold if you keep the lid closed. So be sure the cheese is getting enough air circulation. All sounds as it should be.
I take it out of the mini-cave (small wine chiller) every day to flip it, and let it breathe for an hour or so.
I'll try to get a photo tomorrow.
Thanks!!
Quote from: darius on July 05, 2011, 09:35:51 PM
The blue is dying off and a decent tan is covering about 80% now, so I pierced it.
Is this right? Is this the second piercing? If not, I understood that the first piercing should be when the blue has enveloped the rind.
I ask because I'm doing my first blue and want to make sure I get the detail right.
-Boofer-
Boofer, I have no clue if that's right or not... it's just what I did, relying on memory and not verification of technique!
Boof, if you pierce too early the cheese is still soft and the holes will just close in on themselves. I usually pierce at about 3 weeks.
When you sense something is weird and your own sense of smell is impaired ,asked for a second opinion from someone. (who doesnt thing "smelly cheeses" are disgusting) before thinking of tossing it.
Quote from: darius on July 06, 2011, 01:51:04 PM
Boofer, I have no clue if that's right or not... it's just what I did, relying on memory and not verification of technique!
Sorry, my comment may have come off as something other than curiosity.
I went back and checked linuxboy's recipe. I've attached an extract from it. I would guess that you're at the 2nd stage.
-Boofer-
Boofer, thanks for looking up the notes on piercing, esp. since that's the very recipe I used. This is the first piercing, which now appears should be the 2nd one. I'm assuming it will be okay, and I have no intentions of tossing it!
Later today (if the rain stops) the mini wine chiller gets moved to the root cellar and the Stilton will have it all to itself, rather than sharing space with a few condiments. It will have more space around it, and more air circulation with daily attention. Hopefully I'll get a photo, too.
The mini blues cave goes next to the converted refrigerator I finally got re-finished and stocked with some 1 to 4 month-old rounds of cheese this morning. Don't ever try that with an old refrigerator that has been sitting outside. Nasty, nasty, nasty job to clean and sterilize! I bought a Johnson Controls digital temp. control for the big fridge, and now thinking on humidity control...
Okay, here's my "Stilton"...
The wine chiller iced over after moving it to the root cellar last night, so I'm working on temp adjustment, and humidity control.
Darius,
In my experiments with blues, when they stink to high heck and they get soft, they are done (done as in gone) :-\
I tried holding on to two blues until they liquified and were putrid (I think I posted pics) The smell attracted flies and various other insectoids.
I'm now trying to age them in the bottom of my cave where the humidity is highest (90-95%). I previously had them in a large container where I think the humidity was too high and they 'rotted'.
Hope this helps.
Knoal
Get your blues to the point where you like them and then vac bag and refrigerate. This will cut off oxygen and stop the development. I like a fair bit of proteolysis in my blues.
I have a commercial Stilton that proves that point. It came wrapped in plastic wrap and vacuum-sealed. I can cut off a piece, rewrap it in fresh plastic wrap, and vacuum-seal again. It seems to be staying very fresh.
-Boofer-
I'll have to try that, but at just over 3 weeks I think it's too soon? Bear in mind I have never made a 'Stilton' so I have NO experience. Heck I barely have any cheese experience!
I bag around 90 days.
That's kinda my goal, Sailor.
Quote from: darius on July 07, 2011, 06:20:50 PM
I'll have to try that, but at just over 3 weeks I think it's too soon? Bear in mind I have never made a 'Stilton' so I have NO experience. Heck I barely have any cheese experience!
I'm with you there, Darius. Having just made my 33rd cheese, I'm barely scratching the surface of my cheese knowledge.
Ah, see, there's more to come! ;)
-Boofer-
There are several different strains of PR available. Some come on fast and die off quicker, others come on much slower. Some are different colors blue, blue-grey, blue-green. Some are more proteolytic than others and can effect your timing.
Quote from: Sailor Con Queso on July 08, 2011, 01:28:14 PM
There are several different strains of PR available. Some come on fast and die off quicker, others come on much slower. Some are different colors blue, blue-grey, blue-green. Some are more proteolytic than others and can effect your timing.
How can you know which (and not just PR) are more proteolytic than others? If some particular culture is going to
affect my affinage down the road, that would be a good thing to be aware of.
-Boofer-
Well that's sort of a loaded question. You can always ask your supplier, but a lot of it is personal preference and trying a particular strain to see what happens. You should also be aware that many cultures are not generally available to the hobbyist (unless you know what to ask for).
For example Dairy Connection only lists 1 PR strain (the PV) for sale to hobbyists, but they actually have 3 different ones that have different growth rates, colors, flavors, and proteolytic properties. Here are their descriptions:
________________________________________
PV: Very fast growth rate; strong blue flavor; bluish-green color. Very creamy consistency, e.g. Edelpilz, Roquefort and strong Gorgonzola-type.
PJ: Fast growth rate; typical blue flavor; middle-green color. Can be mixed with PV, no unbound moisture, long shelf life, e.g. Edelpilz or Roquefort.
PA: Very fast growth rate; mild blue flavor; dark-green color. Mild cheese, can be mixed with PV, long shelf life, e.g. danish blue and double-mould-type cheese.
________________________________________
If you read between the lines, you can infer that "long shelf life" means less proteolitic activity. "No unbound moisture" is probably going to produce a drier finished cheese.
Sailor - that helps my understanding. I went to Glengarry for mine.
They have PRB6, PRB18, PS, PJ, and PA. At least I know some of the characteristics of two of those now.
I used PRB18 for my Stilton #2 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7539.0.html).
Anyone out there know any specifics on PRB18?
-Boofer-
Just a different brand and delivery method. PRB18 is Danisco's liquid suspension very similar to the Choosit PV dry culture. The PV seems to have a little higher salt tolerance and for me has been more proteolytic if the moisture content of the cheese is high. So, which one is really more proteolytic? Depends on the cheese, your make style, the finished pH, salt content, aging temps, moisture content, etc. You try both, pick one, and stick with it. Or make your own custom mix just like you can with starter bacteria. I make 5 different kinds of blues, a different one every week. On some blues I use just a PV. On others I use a PV/PJ mix to get the slower proteolysis and milder flavor profile that I want.
I'm not sure but it seems like the one that's in the Royal Blue Stilton is a light to medium green (PJ?). I'm not a true blue cheese afficionado, but I liked the Royal a lot. I hope the PRB18 doesn't end up being too "over the top".
I pierced them this evening and the paste seems creamy already. I realize they've got quite a way to go before they'll be optimal. I can wait. If I get tired of waiting, I'll make something else. ;)
-Boofer-
this is all interesting to me. I didn't know (but it makes sense) about the different lines or strains of PR. The first blue that I made 3yrs ago tasted probably the best of all I have made, but didn't blue as well in the paste, so I wasn't happy. It was also my 1st cheese. Oddly enough, I used a mold rich piece of real stilton as the "culture". My wife, in watching me thru my efforts to achieve success in this complex hobby, said "I don't know why you don't just use some of the "real" cheese like you did the first time!"----she might have been right. T-Bird
Also you should sample to see how the veining is progressing, once you think you have enough move it to your household fridge.
The low temp should slow down the growth of PR.
I finally cut this "stilton"... obviously the piercings closed up, although there is some blue evident. Looks okay but not great, smells okay. However, the taste is awful... bitter overrides the blue.
Got to figure out what I'm doing wrong as most of my cheese is bitter after 60-90 days.
Hi darius,
A shame you're getting bitterness. I had one caerphilly that had some, but not overpowering like you've described. Also, after having cut it it faded, and became less bitter. It's a shame, because those blues you show look really good, though not overly viened, the paste looks great. Nice and firm, yet moist. And I would have thought there was enough blue mold to give some blue flavour as well.
Hmmmm, what are you using for rennet? Are you using tablets or liquid? Calf or vegetarian? Rennet is the usual first port of call for bitterness as I understand it. I would think you would get an exceptionally fast floc if you over rennetted, but you've usually reported good floc times.
After that, perhaps your curds are retaing too much whey? But I would think that would result in more a spoiled flavour. What do you have for a press? (Although blues aren't pressed, so this shouldn't be the case here I wouldn't think).
What's your aging temperature? I see you've got a fridge, so I would think it should be fairly constant. Could it be too warm? Maybe double check that.
Other than that, I can't think of anything else to check. It's weird because your makes always look to go well. Hopefully some of the experts will be able to offer more learned advice.
- Jeff
I'm using liquid calf rennet, from Glengarry. The early cheese I made using Marschall rennet tabs were slightly bitter too, which is why I ordered liquid calf rennet.
Cave temps hover around 54-55ºF (12-13ºC).
Pressing is still rudimentary with free weights, but of course blues don't get pressed so it cannot be pressing. I don't think it's retention of whey either, as one of the Lancs and one Caerphilly were a bit dry... but still had bitter overtones.
Hmmm,
I know the veg. rennet is often mentioned as being bitter sometimes after longer aging, but that would be much more than 90 days. I even cut back on the recommended amount. My rennet says 0.7 ml for 10 L of milk, but I find 0.6 ml produces a good floc time and a good curd. Given that you've got overpowering bitterness though, I really don't think it could be the rennet.
Your aging temp seems in the right range. It is a bit warmer than my cave though, which I keep around 10C. The only other thing I can think of is maybe you've got some sort of wild mold that produces a strong bitter flavour? But that would be noticable when it started growing.
And it's not ammonia, or something that airs out if you leave the cheese to breath, since I recall you mentioned that it remains even if you let it sit around for a couple hours.
I think we'll have to wait for some more expert advice to suggest areas to consider. It's certainly a mystery.
- Jeff
P.S. I was just reading a thread on mother cultures, and Sailor made a comment along the lines of using too much starter culture leads to "acidic bitter cheese" ... bitter being the key word here. Hmmm, given that the bitterness increases as it ages, then if the starter bacterias are still working away, could it be that you need to cut down on your starter amounts? Just another variable to consider.
Funny that I was wondering if the starter could be the culprit...
Hi,
I tend to make ice cubes of culture. Basically, put 1/8 or less of a teasponn of culture in skim Long life milk (Ultra pasturized stuff), and then leave it out for 24 hours at room temp for meso, and in the hot water cupboard for thermo. It goes thick, like yogurt. Freeze that into ice cubes. For 10 L of milk, one or two ice cubes seems to work fine. I've made a few cheeses with 4 ice cubes, because a lot of the recipies for 10 L say to use 4 oz of starter, and each cube is about 1 oz. I'll need to double check my notes on which ones used the 4 cubes, but generally the 1 or 2 cubes seems to work fine as far as I can tell.
I don't create a new batch from the last ice cube but start "fresh", which I have to do now as I think I only have one or two cubes left now. I like this better than trying to measure out fine quantities of the culture. The mother culture should be more consistent in strength, at least on a "per batch" basis.
- Jeff
P.S. And, I just checked my make notes for the caerphilly that had the bitter taste to it (my 3rd one). I had aged that out past 100 days, and it was one of the cheeses where I used 4 ice cubes of starter. I've cut back to 1 or 2 cubes since then, so I'll be interested to see how things compare.
Heres a quote from Linuxboy
"BITTER CHEESE is usually (not always) caused by hydrophobic peptides. Possible causes:
-not aged long enough, peptides have not been degraded
-residual rennet caused from too high of a pH at hoop up. calf rennet can help with this as microbial is usually more bitter when retained.
-incorrect starter or incorrect ripening temp, producing acid too fast can promote bitter peptide formation
-pasteurized at too high of a delta T can cause bitter peptide formation
-contaminated milk (usually pseudomonas) will form bitter peptides
-milk with high plasmine will cause bitter peptides (i.e. mastitic animals)"
Thanks, Aris.
I had not considered the milk as a suspect. It's local P/H Jersey milk from a relatively new small dairy. I think I'll try to go see them later this week and ask about their exact pasteurizing process. Most but not all the cheese I've made came from their milk, but unfortunately I probably didn't note the milk source in all my make notes.
Last month I made 3 batches of Caerphilly using fresh goat milk, and 1 batch from a different source of bovine pasteurized 'creamline' milk. It will be interesting to see if any of those develop bitterness.