There has been some discussion here and there about making a nice veined cheddar using stout. I've had a commercial variety with very pronounced coloring; I expect enhanced some how. I previously made a cheddar where I soaked the milled curds in stout before salting and pressing. The veining was very pale, and the stout added just a bit to the finish on the taste. This time I boiled down some stout until I had one third the original volume, and soaked the curd as before. I drained the curds, salted as usual, and pressed. I'm pleased with the marbling; time will tell how it tastes. The stout reduction itself was pretty tasty, and I might use it in some other things, such as bread.
Great Idea! I'll remember to try that!
dt, looks great and good on the idea of making a stout reduction before soaking.
Still not as dark as commercial ones, picture of Cahill's Irish Cheddar With Porter posted here (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,721.msg23396.html#msg23396).
That looks like it's worked a treat. It's quite possible the commercial ones add some extra colouring as well though, as they do with the sage derby cheeses.
- Jeff
Yeah, I suspect caramel color. In that 19th century book you posted the link to, they used spinach juice with the sage to get the color. This batch of stout wasn't as dark as it could have been. I might make a batch of a chocolate stout that's quite black and make a reduction of that and try this again. I'll wait to see how this tastes first, though.
I like the look of the marble. Perhaps it will darken with time. Even if it doesn't, still looks great!
The last time I did this, the contrast increased with aging, so I think this will look good, but we'll see how the taste develops. Just like to change things up now and then for variety.
I opened this up, and honestly, the taste was no great shakes. It's not pretty enough to be worth the effort, and I got more of the flavor of stout with the Gouda that I soaked in stout. I was entranced by the commercial cheeses that are made like this, and they use coloring to enhance the look. I may do more Cheddars like this for Christmas, just for show, maybe one with sage with spinach juice for coloring, and another with wine and beet or something for coloring.
Sure does look good on the outside. I can't see much color inside though. Too bad about the taste. I can't be certain, but one video I saw seemed to imply that the stout, after reduction of course, was added to fresh curds which were then mixed with aged curds, the fresh curds acting a bit like glue I'd imagine. not sure why I mention that, just something to consider I guess. I wonder if maybe you'd consider trying both the addition as you have it, and then back it up with a stout soak for a little punch. How was the horseradish? I've been thinking of doing one of those, in a gouda, but haven't gotten round to it. Maybe even wasabi!
It wasn't a bad taste, just not very much taste of stout; I think that your idea of coupling with a soak would help that. I'll try the fresh curd with aged curd next time, but with something to color it darker. The color was better than the last photo, the first photo is more accurate for the color, the flash washed out the color in this photo.
The horseradish cheddar was pretty good, but the flavor of horseradish was a bit mild, and the texture was too crumbly. I used pickled horseradish and I think the vinegar in it got my pH too low. I'll try fresh horseradish next time, or maybe wasabi. The milk was p/h milk, so it needed something for more flavor.
I wonder if you were to add some finely milled chocolate malt to the stout while you soaked it if you wouldn't get more color and flavor out of it?
It would darken the stout 'brine' significantly and should give it a much more intense roasty flavor.
Yes, I was thinking about the Black Patent roast barley, putting it in while I boil the stout down. I think that in combination with sort of pureeing it into some fresh curd might be the way to go.
Quote from: dthelmers on March 08, 2012, 09:27:44 PM
Yes, I was thinking about the Black Patent roast barley, putting it in while I boil the stout down. I think that in combination with sort of pureeing it into some fresh curd might be the way to go.
Black patent would definitely get some color in there, but i'd worry about getting astringency from it. The de-bittered black should help cut that down a bit.
What's de-bittered black? I was worried about the astringency too, especially with a dry cheddar.
I've been following this with interest. Do you know the pH of your stout reduction? The reason I ask is because of the problem jlewis and I ran into when trying to make port mottled cheddars. Read about it here. https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9258.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9258.0.html)
Near the end of the thread Francois and linuxboy explain why it didn't work.
I have 3 cheshires made about the same time. I'm wondering about soaking one of them in port at maturation to see what flavor develops.
I really didn't think about the pH of the stout reduction, and I realize that this was a mistake. I think I ran into a similar issue with my horseradish Cheddars, adding pickled horseradish and not accounting for the acidity I was introducing. It fused OK, but not great. It fractures easily along the curd lines. Judging from the flavor that a Gouda that I made picked up when I soaked it in stout, I think that soaking may be the best way to add some flavor. I've been following another thread where the cheese has been soaked in wine for a day, then dried for a day, then soaked again. For flavor, I think that soaking may be a better method, but I'm trying for that pretty effect of the dark lines outlining the curds in the cheese; I may be better off just focusing on making better tasting cheese, and ignoring the glitz factor. Honestly, the Caerphillys that I have made have been the best - just good simple cheese. But I love to tinker!
Quote from: dthelmers on March 08, 2012, 09:42:20 PM
What's de-bittered black? I was worried about the astringency too, especially with a dry cheddar.
not sure how they make it. huskless, perhaps? but it's supposed to be just like the black patent but without astringency.
http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/products/Castle-De%252dBittered-Black-Malt-%28by-the-ounce%29.html (http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/products/Castle-De%252dBittered-Black-Malt-%28by-the-ounce%29.html)
Quote from: Cloversmilker on March 09, 2012, 02:05:37 AM
I've been following this with interest. Do you know the pH of your stout reduction? The reason I ask is because of the problem jlewis and I ran into when trying to make port mottled cheddars. Read about it here. https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9258.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9258.0.html)
Near the end of the thread Francois and linuxboy explain why it didn't work.
I have 3 cheshires made about the same time. I'm wondering about soaking one of them in port at maturation to see what flavor develops.
very interesting. you'd have to measure the stout to find out. The ph while the grains are mashing should be around 5.2 (optimally), but it rises as you 'sparge' so that the final beer should be somewhere above 5.2.
I took this from John Palmer:
Using a dark crystal or roasted malt as 20% of the grainbill will often bring the pH down by half a unit (.5 pH). In distilled water, 100% caramel malt would typically yield a mash pH of 4.5-4.8, chocolate malt 4.3-4.5, and black malt 4.0-4.2.
So if you were to add black malt to the beer reduction, it should drop the ph a bit.
You could neutralize some of the acidity with baking soda prior to soaking, but I don't know if it would create more problems?
I tried this a few years ago with a porter and a port as an experiment and found it to be very light in color. I cut the port 15 minutes after the press to see if it meshed well and was surprised.
https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2918.msg23790/topicseen.html#msg23790 (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2918.msg23790/topicseen.html#msg23790)
Quote from: beechercreature on March 09, 2012, 02:28:51 PM
Quote from: Cloversmilker on March 09, 2012, 02:05:37 AM
I've been following this with interest. Do you know the pH of your stout reduction? The reason I ask is because of the problem jlewis and I ran into when trying to make port mottled cheddars. Read about it here. https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9258.0.html (https://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9258.0.html)
Near the end of the thread Francois and linuxboy explain why it didn't work.
I have 3 cheshires made about the same time. I'm wondering about soaking one of them in port at maturation to see what flavor develops.
very interesting. you'd have to measure the stout to find out. The ph while the grains are mashing should be around 5.2 (optimally), but it rises as you 'sparge' so that the final beer should be somewhere above 5.2.
I took this from John Palmer:
Using a dark crystal or roasted malt as 20% of the grainbill will often bring the pH down by half a unit (.5 pH). In distilled water, 100% caramel malt would typically yield a mash pH of 4.5-4.8, chocolate malt 4.3-4.5, and black malt 4.0-4.2.
So if you were to add black malt to the beer reduction, it should drop the ph a bit.
I definitely wouldn't boil whatever grain you choose, you'll get a ton of astringency. I think I would just try steeping some carafa after you get done reducing the stout.
Quote from: smellysell on March 11, 2012, 07:51:30 PM
I definitely wouldn't boil whatever grain you choose, you'll get a ton of astringency. I think I would just try steeping some carafa after you get done reducing the stout.
that's a common misconception. almost all traditional german brewing calls for decoction mash, which boils the grain several times, yet they get no astringency from it.
Quote from: beechercreature on March 12, 2012, 01:39:15 PM
Quote from: smellysell on March 11, 2012, 07:51:30 PM
I definitely wouldn't boil whatever grain you choose, you'll get a ton of astringency. I think I would just try steeping some carafa after you get done reducing the stout.
that's a common misconception. almost all traditional german brewing calls for decoction mash, which boils the grain several times, yet they get no astringency from it.
They don't use heavily roasted grains in decoction mashes though.
Quote from: smellysell on March 17, 2012, 02:16:05 AM
Quote from: beechercreature on March 12, 2012, 01:39:15 PM
Quote from: smellysell on March 11, 2012, 07:51:30 PM
I definitely wouldn't boil whatever grain you choose, you'll get a ton of astringency. I think I would just try steeping some carafa after you get done reducing the stout.
that's a common misconception. almost all traditional german brewing calls for decoction mash, which boils the grain several times, yet they get no astringency from it.
They don't use heavily roasted grains in decoction mashes though.
shwarzbier.
Quote from: beechercreature on March 19, 2012, 05:36:00 PM
Quote from: smellysell on March 17, 2012, 02:16:05 AM
Quote from: beechercreature on March 12, 2012, 01:39:15 PM
Quote from: smellysell on March 11, 2012, 07:51:30 PM
I definitely wouldn't boil whatever grain you choose, you'll get a ton of astringency. I think I would just try steeping some carafa after you get done reducing the stout.
that's a common misconception. almost all traditional german brewing calls for decoction mash, which boils the grain several times, yet they get no astringency from it.
They don't use heavily roasted grains in decoction mashes though.
shwarzbier.
I don't think most schwarz are decocted, though I'm not positive, so could definitely be wrong. Carafa is also used for the color, which has no husk.
Regarding your use of black patent or debittered, you could also use dehusked carafa. I use it all the time in my brews and it gives a very smooth roast flavor and no tannins/astringency since the husks have been removed.
Or what about soaking it in Sinamar (the Weyermann concentrated dark coloring/extract)? That has very high Lovibond.
Quote from: jlewis92 on March 20, 2012, 06:54:10 PM
Regarding your use of black patent or debittered, you could also use dehusked carafa. I use it all the time in my brews and it gives a very smooth roast flavor and no tannins/astringency since the husks have been removed.
Or what about soaking it in Sinamar (the Weyermann concentrated dark coloring/extract)? That has very high Lovibond.
That's a really good idea. Hadn't even considered that.